Author Topic: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation  (Read 12390 times)

troposfera.net

  • Thanks: 5
Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« on: October 09, 2015, 11:31:20 am »
DIABOLO SITESWAP NOTATION · Transforming siteswap into a useful tool for Diabolists

A tool to create which takes into account the string, the sticks and the air


Hi guys, I was adapting "normal" sitewap notation, to use with diabolo. I do a web site to explain it. You can see it here....

http://troposfera.xyz/autodidactic/theory/siteswap/

I will only say that with this notation, you can write:

    Two Handed Notation

    Different  High or Low patterns.

    How to switch for A-Sinch to Sinch low patterns.

    Low to High to low

    Stick Throws

    etc...

I really like this kind of notation, and help me a lot to understand how to go High to Low with 3 Diabolos. Or developing new tricks with 1 Diabolo.

This notation is on Beta phase, I would love some feedback, i do it "alone" and with more brains we can do it better, I'm open to change the notation if we find  something that works better for Diabolo Jugglers.

Also I adapt JugglingLab for diabolist, you can download it on the web site.

I hope you like and understand it.

Keep Juggling
Dídac



PS: If you find some writing mistake on my English, tell me I will correct it as quick I can.
troposfera.xyz
pervertidors de l'aire

samuli

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 56
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2015, 04:10:47 pm »
HEllo,

Nice to see somebody else do similar work that I have done. I made a thesis work 2012 for Theater Academy Helsinki on a subject of graphic juggling notation and I also included explanation of an idea of complete diabolo notation that explains diabolo states, body throws + how the string is around the body and also uses two handed siteswap notation to explain how the diabolos move. Unforunatelly it is only in finnish and I kind of lost interest of explaining it to people who think they are completely happy without any theory of anything in general. Now your work  brings me back on a subject and I am quite sure that it could be useful to share our thoughts.


Cheers,

Rauli
www.fdc2016.org /www.supiainen.com

Duncan

  • Administrator
  • Thanks: 89
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2015, 06:31:03 pm »
This is very good and important. I need to study it a bit more to really get a feel for it, but a new notation would be really useful.

Arjan

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 69
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2015, 07:52:09 pm »
I must admit diabolo could definitely use a more elaborate notation then the diabolo siteswap notation developed by JiBe, Priam and Baptiste.
But this, for me, seems to be a bit to much a theoretical numbers tool (what siteswap is anyways) but not so much applicable to my own diabolo sessions.
At least for now, as far as I can understand, it does not make me go "ok, so if this, then I wonder what if that". I hope with some more development and time put into this I could become more "accessible".
Which, may make me just sound dumb and lazy  :-D Also, except with the Complex Notation including the Sticks, most of this seems to be towards numbers diabolo, a field that doesn't really sparkle my imagination that much anymore. But it's totally logical it does, cause numbers sort of provide for numbers play, or at least stimulate that. What I miss in this is simply a clear tool to make me wonder myself what numbers I could assign to the things I do, and from there maybe create some order in the wonderful chaos that is my diabolo game. Not that I am enjoying it any less at the moment  ;)

Wis

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 115
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2015, 11:32:10 am »
Thanks for sharing this, Dídac!

I hope to get the definitive motivation to dig into this further.

I just want to comment a couple of things to what Arjan said. First, although this can be used with multiple diabolos, for example to better understand the timing of the hands movement in high or low (check the juggling lab gifs), this was developed even with higher focus on one diabolo. Just check this example:


And second, about usability, my personal experience is quite positive. I must confess I have not fully understood all the details and I do not use it myself very often. But the first time I saw this notation was in a workshop with him, and there it was very easy to see the sense and logic of the notation and to already see "spaces" within a trick, or different directions some things can be done. I guess this is what siteswap is about. And then, whenever I meet Dídac and show him some tricks he is able to propose me some alternatives just by a fast mental walk through his knowledge of the notation. Surely William or other talented guys can do this without notation, no doubt about it, to some extent almost anybody can do this without the notation. This seems to me like a inversion, you make the effort to get it and then end it saves you time when creating, and expands your spectrum of ways forward. And many things you do, Arjan, I think could benefit from this notation, or be explained by this notation better than any other I have seen (I do proudly speak Polish, but Finnish is not in my skills list yet).

That's it so far. People, do not be afraid of trying, even with my partial knowledge I already felt benefit.

Edit: btw, the website is not loading to me. Is there anybody having the same issue?
"The string...the inertia...the hours"

7531

  • Thanks: 2
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2015, 07:21:16 pm »
thanks for share it Didac. Would be nice to have a simulator for tricks like integrals or suicides

tancle

  • Thanks: 26
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2015, 04:19:43 pm »
I can't use the link...
http://troposfera.net/autodidactic/theory/


:)
I am very interesting in this topic.
Although I can't explain very well in English.

I tried to understand DSSS by excel chart.

In the video after 10:43~


If you want to try the Excel, you can see here.....
https://goo.gl/bfMqgO

I have some idea about feed the sun but I only can explain in Chinese.

I hope I can make a video for you...

islander

  • Thanks: 0
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2015, 05:19:14 pm »
the link is not working for me?
could you give it here again?
thanks

troposfera.net

  • Thanks: 5
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2015, 05:35:08 pm »
Hey Guys!

Here, in Portugal, the site is working, I will call to my hosting service tomorrow morning and try to know why the site doesn't work everywhere.

I'm really sorry but i don't know why it doesn't work everywhere, but the link is ok. http://troposfera.net/autodidactic/theory/

Some times the server blocks some IPs, but i check it now, and none IP seems to be blocked. If you know your IP you can send me it by private message, and I can see if it is blocked in the server and unblock it.

I will answer the deep questions in another post, probably next week when I find some time to answer them properly.

I'm really sorry, Dídac
I will try to fix it as soon as possible

troposfera.xyz
pervertidors de l'aire

Wis

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 115
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2015, 05:52:39 pm »
Tancle, on your xls I got this message:
File is in owner's trash
You will soon permanently lose access to this file.
For continued access, please make a copy.
Comments will not be copied to the new document

Btw, nice idea to illustrate the classic siteswap
"The string...the inertia...the hours"

troposfera.net

  • Thanks: 5
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2015, 11:08:47 am »
Hi Again Guys!

I Call to my server hosting service, I told them that from some countries some people cannot see my website, I told them that for sure Poland and Taiwan, they tell me that in those countries some IPs where blocked, they unblock them, and now I think you can see the site.

I ask them to unblock other countries if there are blocked, because I want that my site could be watched everywhere, but they answered me that they cannot do it, because some IP could be some Hack attacks to the server.

If any of you cannot see the site, pleas tell me your country and I will call to my hosting server, to unblock your country IP as quick I can.

I'm really sorry, I don't know why it happened, but they tell me that it's a server problem, I cannot fix it, it is not the fault of my website.

Please tell em if you can see the web now...

Thanks
Dídac
troposfera.xyz
pervertidors de l'aire

troposfera.net

  • Thanks: 5
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2015, 06:41:59 pm »
Answers for diabolists...

Quote
samuli
I made a thesis work 2012 for Theater Academy Helsinki on a subject of graphic juggling notation and I also included explanation of an idea of complete diabolo notation that explains diabolo states, body throws + how the string is around the body and also uses two handed siteswap notation to explain how the diabolos move. Unfortunately it is only in Finnish and I kind of lost interest of explaining it to people who think they are completely happy without any theory of anything in general. Now your work  brings me back on a subject and I am quite sure that it could be useful to share our thoughts.

I would be very interested to see your thesis and share thoughts, I don't understand Finnish, but it will be nice to have it translated.
My notation dosn't contemplate body throws or where the string is directly, but I mix it with some tables that I do for my own trainings with body throws and body catches, and different ways of throwing the diabolo or the sticks that helps me to find new body throws or body catches. It helps me to think different on my researches, and find new ways to juggle with the diabolo.

I didn't post that tables on the site, because I want to explain it well, and i didn't find the way to do it virtually. (**** this 2.0 world where we live) But I promise I will publish it with some examples. I would like that this project becomes a "Linux project" open source one ...


Quote
Arjan
I must admit diabolo could definitely ...

Arjan, I think that with your way to play one diabolo, this notation mixed with the tables will help you to create some order in your chaos, if you want it. I also like chaos in my trainings but after I like to write it in a simple way.
With this method I can have 320 tricks in one A4 page. Also when I'm without inspiration or I don't want to think too much, I take one pattern and the table and I find some new ways to research.

I was calculating how many variations I can find only if I modify the catch or the throw with:

10 body throws
4 ways to throw or catch diabolo
4 ways to throw or catch the sticks
Crossing(3) or to the same hand(4) 

and I found that there are 320 different possibilities.

But if i combine The Body Catch with The Body Throws you can try 51200 possibilities .

I know that this notation is not easy, and it isn't perfect but when you are used to it, it's great!
I hope you will get used to it.

Quote
7531
would be nice to have a simulator for tricks like integrals or suicides


This simulator can explain integral suicides and duicides, but you have to use your imagination a little, because the sticks don't have the same behaviour than balls, also I'm not a programmer, I'm a juggler that learns informatics to share my knowledge.

For example
Infinite
[42]020

4 is the knot in the diabolo that you do every time trying to have the diabolo near your right hand, i supposed you are right handed.
2 is the stick that you have to control the infinite
0 is your empty hand that waits for the stick that is realised.

*this is only the part that you do the infinite*
As you can see is a two object trick like when with balls you can do  7 3 3 3 , the  _ _ _  can be 333 or 423 or 531 and is a 3 balls trick inside a four balls pattern. Then when you release the stick for the infinite it will be an even number 4, 6, 8, a, c, e, etc... it depends on how many times you do the infinite... I hope you understand this explanation.

Quote
Wis
Thanks for sharing this, Dídac! ...

Thanks Wis for your unconditional support!!!

I think I wrote all I wanted to write... but I forgot something for sure, see you in the nexts posts!!!

Dídac
troposfera.xyz
pervertidors de l'aire

samuli

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 56
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2015, 06:52:16 pm »
And there's some discussion somewhere here on d.ca abou two handed diabolo siteswaps too maybe year or two ago...

www.fdc2016.org /www.supiainen.com

samuli

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 56
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2015, 08:19:05 am »
And there's some discussion somewhere here on d.ca about two handed diabolo siteswaps too maybe year or two ago...

This was on subject of fans and suns:
with 1d, fan and sun is the same move. (at least as I see this) On 2d word sun is used for patterns based on two handed four beat siteswap pattern 312s2s .
Where sun happens on 22 part and 31 is the set up.

And just to be clear how these sun/fan terms are used at the moment with 2d.
sun = 312s2s, 4 beat pattern
fan = 2s2s, 2 beat pattern

31 is the two handed siteswap notation for basic shuffle.
2rbw, 2 or 2rfw, 2 would be the hover speed up,
continuous speed pulls would be 2rbw/rfw231
22 would be the minicolums with 2 diabolo
312 is the ping pong minicolums variation
330 is a fun to do


rbw= right back wrap
rfw= right front wrap

fan is just continuous 22 movement. diabolos stay on same place on the string but string rotates a circle.

nice patterns from here are doing regular 22 (minicolums) and going in to different versions of fan, (right out, right in, left in, left out) keeping the pattern as 2222s2s as a five beat version and 22s2s as much more difficult 3 beat version. some 31222 versions are fun too, 3122s2s is really good fun as the sun part changes direction so to speak is antifan or antisun. (s after siteswap, explains the sun/fan)

At this point I point out my point here: sun and fan are for me same things. they describe same movement, it is just difference between the siteswap of the pattern. I know I have said this before but I don't really enjoy naming the tricks. As usually the trick names don't explain anything about the movement/trick itself.

2handed notation for 3low would be 51? or (4x,2x) depending how you like to think of it, or do you prefer sync or async.
cascade is 333
with columns you have lot of ways to go. 333 is possible as 4440, 423, they are different but just coulumns don't give enough info.
box is (4, 2x)(2x, 4)
Hover is multiplex pattern. [2rbw, 1] 3,
other nice hover patterns with 3 are [2rbw, 2],2 which is minicolums with hover, and [2rbw, 3],1 which is hover with anti shuffle. 

for 3d suns/fans with 2handed siteswap notation, here's some variations without feeding.
regular 3d sun/fan would be [2s,2s],2s or 2s,[2s,2s]


And about diabolo state diagram.
More of this was already published on Kaskade magazine and at Finnish diabolo associations newsletter at 4/2009.

This image shows how string can be around diabolo, so basicly twists and wraps. I have quite big one with wraps, twists, trapezes (one stick in wrap), and backside versions of these. Then I have other with half turns, and I am making a cradle state graph and kind of tower-pedia thingy too.

http://supiainen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/diabolostatewraps.pdf

And something about terminology I used here

Open right (OR) is like open string with right hand speed ups, kind of way
RBW is right back wrap
RFW is right front wrap
Twist R is twist with right string going to twist in front
Twist L is twist with left string going to twist in front

LUB means left under back
LUF means left under front
LOB means left over back
LOF means left over front
RUB means right under back
RUF means right under front
ROF means right over front
ROB means right over back

and of course you can do this with holding stick, and moving your arms
or letting go of stick and let that form a wrap
move diabolo, that it forms state you want to make. whatever.

As I think this diagram explains the most basic states in diabolo juggling. How string can be around diabolo. Basic wraps and twists.


Here's some of my diabolo stuff, (in Finnish, mainly)
http://supiainen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/diabolostuff.pdf

I really like the idea of taking the sticks in to the notation too like you did, but as having the end result of having really heavy notation with lot of multiplexes showing that the stick is in the hand. I thought of doing this as well but then in the end I didn't use it because it felt too heavy. Now after seeing your work I'm changing my mind on it and think this is good idea and in my Graphic juggling notation I would use different colours to make the sticks stand out from diabolos.

there's so much variations and important things to notate in diabolo juggling compared to plain ball toss juggling.

I really should come back and do more work on this subject again. Thank you for making the website and thinking of these things. Diabolo culture needs this kind of things and discussion too.

www.fdc2016.org /www.supiainen.com

tancle

  • Thanks: 26
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2015, 06:54:02 pm »
I Call to my server hosting service, I told them that from some countries some people cannot see my website, I told them that for sure Poland and Taiwan, they tell me that in those countries some IPs where blocked, they unblock them, and now I think you can see the site.

Now, I can see the web site. thank.

Tancle, on your xls I got this message:
File is in owner's trash
You will soon permanently lose access to this file.

I replace the file. Thank you.

kamikace

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 14
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2015, 11:27:58 pm »
On 2d word sun is used for patterns based on two handed four beat siteswap pattern 312s2s .

I arrived to same conclusin as Samuli about suns (please check link below).
In case that it could be of interest, let me drop a link to the article (in Spanish, sorry) in which I suggested using the right depth of notation according to the degree of complexity of a juggling sequence (original article was published on 2010. I hope you can understand it using a translator.

http://contraalacontraalacontra.blogspot.de/2013/11/describir-por-no-poder-hacer-revision.html

Regards.
Daniel
Rooted diabolist.

Wis

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 115
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2015, 02:05:38 pm »
Tancle, does the website from Didac works for you now?

@kamikace:
I think we all agree that notation should adjust to the level of complexity. At least I have not heard Dídac insisting on doing otherwise.
I have serious troubles to understand your article. Probably I just need a more deep knowledge of siteswap, at least that should help me.
"The string...the inertia...the hours"

troposfera.net

  • Thanks: 5
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2015, 03:07:43 pm »
Hi, again.

Sorry for my delay, I had a lot of work during this last month.

I read kamikace's article, and I get kind of lost, but form what I understand, you are saying that 3 diabolos siteswap is 51.

I think that you can do 3 diabolos low like 51, but in my opinion 51 is not the standard shuffle, also you notation don't say what diabolo is going to the air and what is going to slitting.

I posted in my website 3 new gifs where you can see different ways of 3 diabolo low Asinch and how to go from one to other.
http://troposfera.xyz/autodidactic/theory/siteswap/siteswap-3b3-3-diabolos-low/

There you can see 5B1 1B5 and 3B3 and how to switch from one to the other.

- - - -

I was cheeking a lot of 3 and 4 diabolo low videos to develop this notation, and I realised that there is different ways to do 3 diabolo low Asynch, I already know that but this notation is not only for my way of juggling.
When I start to develop this notation I knew that I would like to achieve something that not only describes what we do, that also helps us to find new tricks, and educational trick to improve our technique or help us to understand hard tricks.

   For expample, if you want to do 5 balls you can practice this tricks with less balls to learn it faster.

      1 Ball -> 50000
      2 Balls -> 55000, 50500
      3 Balls -> 55500, 50505, (6x,0)
      4 Balls -> 55550, 552

But with diabolo is very hard to learn 3 or 4 or more diabolos, because do a productive training is very difficult, we waist a lot of time accelerating the diabolos and after we only have 3 or 4 seconds to understand what is happening, this make our training very frustrating.

If we decide that 4 diabolos low is a 5B3, were the 5 is on the rope and the 3 on the air we can train some educative tricks like:

    To achieve 5B3 (4 low) we can train

     1D -> 5B0000300
     2D -> 5B300
     3D -> 5B223, 5B313, 5B1,

             (and for sure we can find more educative tricks)

Also we can juggle  4 low as 3B5 or 71B, but it would be harder.

But if we decide that 4,5 or 6 low are half showers the last two trick will help us to improve our 5 diabolos low.

      5 Low [siteswap 73B] educative with 4D -> 71B and  53B

But remember we can juggle 5 dibolos as we wish for example 73B or 91B.

- - - -


Thanks for reading my paranoia
Dídac

PS: Arjan I saw your diabolo collaboration trick, and is a beautiful [42]222[3B2]22 throwing the 2. I had working in some of this patterns and are very cool, i have this trick backwards ;).
troposfera.xyz
pervertidors de l'aire

Wis

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 115
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2015, 12:15:53 pm »
I confess that what seduces more of this notation is that difference between different 3D shuffles that it is able to describe, and explain.

Concerning Arjan's trick it is at 0:41 in the collab video

According to Didac this is a "beautiful [42]222[3B2]22 throwing the 2"
"The string...the inertia...the hours"

Ronnie

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 26
Re: Two Handed Diabolo Siteswap Notation
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2015, 05:18:39 pm »
Ok I have spent the last hour trying to figure out some patterns and I came up with these:

Shuffle (5) = 3B7

64 = 93B53B

753 = b3B73B33B

8642 = d3B93B53B13B

56[73]45 = 3B73B93B[b3B33B]53B7

574[73]635 = 3B73Bb3B53B[b3B33B]93B7

567[82]345 = 3B73B93Bb3B[d3B13B]33B53B7

58483[82]72625 = 3B73Bd3B53Bd3B33B[d3B13B]b3B13B93B13B7

Also there is this massive combo:
3B73B73B73B73B93B53B73B73B73B73B73B93B53B73B93B53B73B93B53B73B93B53B93B53B93B53B93B53B73B73B73B73B73B73B73B73B73B73B93B53Bb3B73B33B73B73B73B73B73B73Bb3B73B33Bb3B73B33Bb3B73B33Bd3B93B53B13Bd3B93B53B13Bd3B93B53B13Bd3B93B53B13B73B73B73B73B73B93Bb3B33Bb3B33Bb3B33Bb3B33Bb3B33Bb3B33Bb3B33Bb3B33B53B73B73B73B73B73B73B93Bb3Bd3B13Bd3B13Bd3B13Bd3B13Bd3B13Bd3B13Bd3B13Bd3B13Bd3B13B33B53B7

I think that although this is very complicated compared to DSSS I can see it being more useful for things such as reverse throws and things like that which I am going to try doing right now. I recommend setting the speed to 7.5 beats per second and setting the dwell beats to 1.0 for a more realistic looking shuffle ;)