Poll

What is your Vision about the diabolo.ca collaboration video?

To present to the world the most imaginative and best quality diabolo that diabolo.ca players can produce in the year, while encouraging non-members to join
4 (19%)
To create a video for diabolo.ca members (and inviting others to join), that encourages all diaboloists to participate in, regardless of skill, and be seen by the rest of the group
7 (33.3%)
To present to the world the highest level of diabolo creativity and skills whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community. Also, inviting others to join
10 (47.6%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: June 05, 2017, 11:29:16 pm

Author Topic: POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?  (Read 4532 times)

Wis

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2016, 03:15:49 pm »
Now, this post is not about 'How the collaboration video should look like to make diabolo players happy'.
This post continues the idea 'How to get more views? because more views mean more diabolo players in the future'.

I manged to get the data, thanks to Lucas, from our supposedly most successful collaboration of 2012.



As I expected this collaboration has the worst retention rate profile. But that is normal because it has ~1M views. That means that more people outside from the diabolo world watched it, it is not bad, it simply means that for those people is harder to watch the whole thing.

I have watched some collaboration videos from 2009, and I have tried to find differences

Year   - Length - Views     - Editor                   - Original thread                                                      - Description box
2009 - 15:02 - 20,283    - Jesse Gehlen        - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=7444  - Super complete in the forum page, even has a map
2010 - 13:31 - 18,718    - Nico Pires             - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=8665  - Pretty bare minumum
2011 -  9:09  - 12,448    - MaxMaestro          - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=9510  - Almost non-existing
2012 - 15:10 - 920,723  - Lucas Abduch      - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=10153 - Hyper - complete
2013 - 12:55 - 15,858    - HÃ¥vard Bergo       - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=10969 - Simple, no name/number of players
2014 - 12:55 -   7,082    - Rauli Katajavuori  - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=12264 - Simple, no name of players
2015 -   6:32 -   5,897    - Maxi Hof               - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=12609 - Simple, no name of players

Other comments:
- All the views I counted are YT views, which does not account for Vimeo, or Juggling.tv (except 2009 which is only on juggling.tv)
- In 2012 there was a question to make two videos (similar level of tricks in both videos), but in general people seem to dislike that a lot. I understand that. http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=10153
- In 2012 Lucas asked for feedback for the names of the people, checking for typos. Seems that Lucas was a very feedback based editor
- In 2012 the collaboration video included some commercial value, as it was linked to Malabarize, a juggling shop. Without consulting with the public, I might add, I don't mind though
- 2014 and 2015, and maybe others, were the darker years from the collab, in the sense that elite players were not interested

My conclusions:
- Short video does not seem to be linked to more views, at least not in our range of > 5 minutes.
- I would say that skills, style and selection criteria of the editor can move us from 5,000 to 20,000 views. But not above 20,000

What is the true difference between 2012 and the other collabs?
Lucas, and his consistent approach to become a video editor. Because Lucas was already creating a consistent big base of viewers interested on juggling, our video was watched by many people. Potentially now there is somebody starting to do 4 low because he watched that video.

So what can we do if we want to get to bigger audiences?
- Get a known editor with good viewers database
- Improve our approach of distribution. e.g: sharing also on FB video, using Lucas channel as advertising with small teasers one the video is done. I want to do that for the EJC diabolo Battle as well.

My conclusion:
- We can gain a lot by improving marketing a bit.
- We can try to motivate great players to participate, it is not only job of the editor
- We could focus on having the community happy (some minimum guidelines/debate), and then parallel get to more audience improve the marketing.
"The string...the inertia...the hours"

7531

  • Thanks: 2
Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2016, 11:05:16 pm »
So  I understand that for you is more important to get more views than the good for everyone? Views are not important,we are not pros, we re diaabolo players. Trr to get many views is like oh I want to be famous and that the people see what can I do. For me diabolo is just have fun and here it was just make a video gathering all the diaboloca community.

 ;)

Wis

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2016, 07:04:50 am »
I have obviously not said that. But I perfectly understand it is tempting to oversimplify a text, for both bias, or laziness. And I would not blame you too much for any of them.

I have explained why one of my goals was getting views and it does not involve me being famous. I want the community to grow, because I think that juggling brings a lot of happiness.

And it is cool to know what the video is for you, like me you have repeated yourself several times, but here we want to know what it is for everybody.

For me diabolo is just have fun and here it was just make a video gathering all the diaboloca community.

So when you say "all", you mean every person that submitted? I am asking again because the previous time I asked you did not answer.
"The string...the inertia...the hours"

5p3ak

  • Thanks: 7
Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2016, 10:29:09 am »
+1 to the feedback based editing. Perhaps increase the time avaible to submit vidoes.
Check out my Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/MaFiaZai

Richard

  • Thanks: 53
Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2016, 07:16:41 pm »
Hey guys,

Loving the comments and it's great to see that so many people are so passionate about this :)

I agree with Wis' comments that if we don't vote/decided as a group, we're not progressing, it's just the vision of a few of us, or the editor at the time, not the majority of the community. I say majority because it'll be impossible to please everyone with ANY decision that is made - just take a look at why we're having this debate. Clement made a decision on the direction of the collab video and there are people who don't agree with it.

The point I'm making is that this is inevitable - regardless of how fair we make a voting system, not everyone will be pleased with the outcome. However, as Jordan put it, at least we can have clear expectations.

So, I suggest that we open a voting system now, and keep voting open for a couple of months WHILE we debate. The benefit of this is that someone can be involved a little or a lot - not everyone has the time or inclination (like some of us) to trawl through lots of text to possibly change their opinion on a matter. And if this means that some won't have ALL the facts presented, so be it.

Wis, what do you think? Is it possible to open voting option that can stay open for a few months and maybe give people the option to change their vote? All we need to do is decide on the 3-5 visions.

I'd suggest using the 3 that we already have and maybe get 2 more from people - Pieter/Clement or anyone else that has a vision that doesn't look like one listed below, what would you think about presenting it?

1) "To present to the world the most imaginative and best quality diabolo that diabolo.ca players can produce in the year, while encouraging non-membersto join".
2) "To create a video for diabolo.ca members (and inviting others to join), that encourages all diaboloists to participate in, regardless of skill, and be seen by the rest of the group"
3) "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo skill and creativity whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community's. Also, inviting others to join".

Additional goals (for future discussion):
- Include a 2nd 'community' video where all videos will be included.
- ensure there are clear guidelines about what is expected in the video
- provide editor-submitter feedback
- Average audience retention for YouTube videos higher than 50%?

You may notice that I keep showing this list - I do this because otherwise, I see this conversation going in 'circles' for a long time with not much output. This isn't a criticism of anyone in this forum, it's just human nature and the way we naturally tent to behave without a few options being presented to us, to begin working on something.

Rich

samuli

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2016, 10:49:33 pm »
I am in!

Thank's Richard.
www.fdc2016.org /www.supiainen.com

7531

  • Thanks: 2
Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2016, 02:02:09 am »
I m tired about this thing, is impossible to have an equal solution. Doesn t worth to argue about something like this.
 So I m just going to enjoy to play diabolo for myself and maybe record short clips for instagram (@3diabolos)

Enjoy playing diabolos
 :) :)

Wis

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2016, 03:56:04 pm »
@7531:
It is worth to me to discuss this topic, and I am glad I seem not to be alone. It is a pitty that you seem to give up on YouTube and Facebook and creating longer videos because of this discussion, but I can't understand why you decide to do so. If thinking and discussing were a reason for people to walk away, then this would be a very sad world for Wis.
Good luck with your juggling and your videos!

@Richard: I like your post a lot, Thanks!
If possible I would like to separate the goals, and put it like secondary goals, or indirect goals
- Average audience retention for YouTube videos higher than 50%?
- Include a 2nd 'community' video where all videos will be included. -> As much as I think this may help, I think little people showed interest on it... but I guess maybe voting can show something different

I like your idea of an open poll, I will try to check as soon as possible what are the technical possibilities.
"The string...the inertia...the hours"

Richard

  • Thanks: 53
Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2016, 08:49:26 am »
Thanks Wis!!!

I think, yes, definitely hold onto/record those goals, as they're really good ideas :)

And thanks for looking into this - I'm sure we will be able to come to a good solution :)

Also, if you can't find an easy way to get a survey going in this forum, maybe consider using Survey Monkey or another website like that - it's free and they are set up specifically for situations like this.

Rich

Wis

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2016, 11:45:22 am »
Ok, I have created a poll with the visions, Duncan checked and yes we can change the vote, and I have checked that we can add more options whenever anybody wants.


There are three options concerning the privacy of the poll results
1- Show the poll's results to anyone.
2- Only show the results after someone has voted.
3- Only show the results after the poll has expired.

I have chosen the third one, to avoid people being influenced by other people choices. I could only choose the 3rd option when setting a 'Deadline' and so I have put 90 days. I can change it at any point in time.
"The string...the inertia...the hours"

Pieter

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2016, 03:20:25 pm »
Sounds good Wis! (happy you didn't choose option 1 ;-) )

about the visions, I would like to discuss a bit about the 3rd vision because this one isn't clear for me:
"To present to the world the highest level of diabolo skill and creativity whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community's. Also, inviting others to join."
First I think it is better to switch 'skill' and 'creativity', or just skip the 'skills': "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo creativity."
Second, "...whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community's. Also, inviting others to join." what does this mean? If I should vote I don't think this would be clear to me... so I think we have to make this a bit more clear/specific, before opening the poll.

Also, can people change their mind and vote again?

Wis

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2016, 04:56:02 pm »
Also, can people change their mind and vote again?

Yes they can, sorry I forgot to mention that.

First I think it is better to switch 'skill' and 'creativity', or just skip the 'skills': "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo creativity."
I would propose then "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo skills and/or creativity." I think feed 12345 is not very creative, but hell yeah we want it in.

Second, "...whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community's. Also, inviting others to join." what does this mean? If I should vote I don't think this would be clear to me... so I think we have to make this a bit more clear/specific, before opening the poll.

I think the meaning is clear, the 'to join what?' could be the question, but to me it is clear it means 'join the community'.

Or was your problem different? Keep in mind we will define goals afterwards...
"The string...the inertia...the hours"

Pieter

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2016, 08:38:50 pm »
I think the meaning is clear, the 'to join what?' could be the question, but to me it is clear it means 'join the community'.

Or was your problem different? Keep in mind we will define goals afterwards...

Yes, "portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community's" it not clear to me how we will do this, but you're right, problems for later maybe...

and about the 'skills' of course we want that in, but now it reads like "skills, and yeah creativity also". While if you say "creativity and yeah skills also", this is a different accent and I think people doing diabolo for fun only, are more likely to accept in the last order... :-)

The Void

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2016, 10:16:43 pm »
Grammar: "an" is for a singular, so therefore: "community". The plural of "community" is "communities", but DCA is one community.
Edit: Okay, the wording is the actual poll is already singular. I was just reading the text in Wis' post. Sorry.
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Wis

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #74 on: December 21, 2016, 02:06:43 pm »
While if you say "creativity and yeah skills also", this is a different accent and I think people doing diabolo for fun only, are more likely to accept in the last order... :-)

Done. I had missed that you wanted to swap them.

And thanks anyway, Void :)

So far two people have voted.
"The string...the inertia...the hours"

samuli

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #75 on: December 21, 2016, 08:00:53 pm »
3 votes, having no result.
www.fdc2016.org /www.supiainen.com

Brian60158

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #76 on: December 25, 2016, 04:21:56 pm »
I do agree that showing high skill diabolo is very important because then it looks more appealing to an outside audience, but one problem is that choosing the high skilled players all the time basically diminishes having to send in videos. I personally would much rather focus on having any skill level in the video because there are so many people that send in clips that aren't as good as ofcourse the best people. Basically my point is that only having high level diabolo players in the video will lessen the amount of people that send in a video, it doesn't have the community aspect, and it shows people that you must be as good as those people in the video to even have a chance to be in the video. I do get that we need to have a unique and original idea(s) for the vide, but that can be done with players of any skill, you can also have it be with a theme for the video or just something to make it unique. Again though that can be done with having people of all types of skill.

samuli

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #77 on: December 26, 2016, 02:05:28 pm »
The people outside of diabolo culture don't understand what is difficult or what is 'innovative' and what is not either, so this  high skill thing is not valid. Red bull might be valid but even PAO isn't getting too high scores with view count.
www.fdc2016.org /www.supiainen.com

Wis

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Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2016, 11:18:03 am »
Why the fact that people outside cannot appreciate the difficulty or innovative part of the tricks makes sharing high skilled and innovative tricks worthless in your eyes?

For me it is so that even if people cannot recognize yo yo tricks, they all can feel Janos Karancz do super human stuff. And they may not be able to tell on they're own 'absolute' values of the tricks, like '5low 64 is a crazy hard trick, objectively' but they can feel if they see 2 tricks in a row which one looks harder 2low vs 3low, e.g.

Also I would say that people can recognize if they are fed too similar kind of tricks... maybe variety should be part of the vision?

But for me the need of sharing 'good' tricks comes from the community own needs, not from the outside.
"The string...the inertia...the hours"

Richard

  • Thanks: 53
Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2016, 04:56:12 pm »
OK, silly question but where is the poll?

Looked everywhere.

maybe it'd be worth creating a separate thread to advertise the poll, considering there's such a low amount of people who've voted in it?