Author Topic: 3rd Base ideoligy  (Read 33325 times)

Tom Derrick

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 6
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #120 on: October 19, 2007, 01:57:26 am »
Tom Derrick and another juggler had a productive session applying third base to juggling at Durham, well happy seeing it applied to other disciplines.
I've just filmed Mills' mess, and the accompanying 'third base' pattern that I came across at Durham. At the time of writing, it's being processed by youtube, but if you check my youtube account, it'll be online shortly.

Edit: It's now online:
[youtube=425,350]c64tazyl2pA

Marijn

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 38
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #121 on: October 19, 2007, 07:20:08 am »
I think i begin to understand where to look for answers....
''I have been practising some basic 2d suicide stuff to widen my arse''

Martijn

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 113
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #122 on: October 19, 2007, 10:27:51 am »
you say think baseball when ya gotta remember baseball is a prodominately american sport

That makes no sense at all. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist in other countries, or that we don't know the rules and terms used in that sport.
download Made in Taiwan at www.arjangroenendijk.nl

Shaun

  • Donator
  • Thanks: 3
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #123 on: October 20, 2007, 01:00:19 am »
I've just filmed Mills' mess, and the accompanying 'third base' pattern that I came across at Durham.
So 3rd base is just like tweaking tricks to make new ones that are similar?

William

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 46
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #124 on: October 20, 2007, 01:11:17 am »
I think somebody may have finally hit the jackpot.
All may be revealed.
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

pippy

  • Thanks: 0
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #125 on: October 27, 2007, 08:08:32 pm »
Quote
you say think baseball when ya gotta remember baseball is a prodominately american sport

Quote
That makes no sense at all. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist in other countries, or that we don't know the rules and terms used in that sport.

I'm not sayin it doesn't exist in other countries but if I said there was a new ideology called truck and trailor, then told you 'think rugby', I doubt many americans or some europeans would understand that term without having to go and find out about rugby.
I know for a fact that most Germans don't have a clue about rugby (I've been in Germany for the past week so watched England lose to South Africa with Germans who didn't know what was going on).
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol.

Beni

  • Guest
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #126 on: October 28, 2007, 08:27:32 pm »
It's been a while since I posted here, I had a bit of an unispired lull in my diabolo-ing, but I'm fully into it again :).

I believe 3rd base was talked about last year when I first started diabolo.
At first I thought is was a real techincal theory with a lot to consider which is why it was taking so long. I soon came to think of it as one big unfunny joke that when people get they join in. I still think this may be the case (maybe something to do with the lack of revolutionary new tricks, sensible attempts to explain etc...). But recent developments in the 3rd base 'saga' have got me thinking maybe there is something in it. Suddenly, sort-of and just-about 3rd base tricks are appearing in videos, and someone may have hit the 'jackpot'.
The jackpot in question seems to be a very simple statement which seán or anyone else could easily have said at the start of all this:

So 3rd base is just like tweaking tricks to make new ones that are similar?

Well I think many people do that, but why give it a name and keep it a secret to annoy everyone else?
Anyhow, if I understand it right, 3rdb seems to be what Miesta said; a change in the trick like changing the moving object from diabolo to sticks or merging tricks together more thoroughly than normal in a combo. Maybe it's just shaping a trick to suit your style, which almost every diaboloist does. That still doesn't explain 1st, 2nd and 4th bases.
If it is a joke, maybe it's time to own up, guys.
And if it isn't? Well something that is apparently impossible to explain in text and video shouldn't be given a term and dangled in front of everyone's noses on an internet forum.

Beni.

seán_

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 49
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #127 on: October 28, 2007, 11:46:30 pm »
Right

Ok to go back and look at my original assumptions and conjecture and postulates in the early part of *my* investigation into 3rd base
(my as in my own understanding not as a claim to the concept as a whole).

I'm slowly getting my thoughts in order,
I too am interested in what people think it might be.

Some clues
3rd base is a baseball term but also has another meaning in Americana (pg forum remember) 

still holds true

2nd base tricks also seem to exist but the only one I have done is tied into trashes web (possbly stealing 3rd) 

again still part of the whole thing but not an area I'm particularly interested. I quite like slack control to a point (hey tweakage) but most 2nd base stuff is just sloppy. Fair enough if anybody wants to deal with it, theres a fair chance that they'll discover stuff that they'll be pleased with but it's not for me.

1st base tricks I don't think so.
again it has to exist but to me (at this point in time) it just seems like indecision.

4th, thats a regular trick
As true as it has ever been.

Aspects of node theory maybe come into it.
There is a need to stop thinking of nodes as static points that might be concretely defined, move away from geometry and think of calculus (the curve heads towards the zenith but that point is so fractionally small that what lays to either side becomes of more importance).


Tweakage* possibly has a bearing on this.
Tweakage, I'll be coming back to this, it definitely has a bearing on 3rdB and vise versa.

Not every trick is 3rd baseable,
Sometimes I think this, but It cant hold true, potentially we might be better to think that some tricks are incredibly hard to apply 3rdB to (see next point).

 Some tricks are allready 3rd base version of another trick, we just haven't recognised it.
 Yes, this is potentially a hard thing to take in, before third base I'd define all tricks as a unique entity, now my thinking is that If trick A is imposible to 3rd base might it not be a trick? This sounds unituitive because a trick is a trick right? This is the bit that causes me (maybe others) a lot of grief.

Not every 3rd base trick is going to be as elegant as a regular trick, some wont be noticeable to those other than somebody clued into 3b, even then sometimes its something to do for its own sake
This is true, but through accepting third base I see some things as more elegant when not in 3rd base again the opposite can be argued on a case by case basis. Sure some things aren't that noticeable but then were they ever?
We all know to a greater or lesser extent depending on many things (skill level, the why/who and what for we diabolo for whether we are happy just going through a list of 'standard' tricks or we want to be completely unique etc.) that when it gets down to it diabolo is a personal thing. We wouldn't be doing it if we didn't get something out of it on a personal level. Sure to what extent is another personal thing but we all know that there are things we notice, that other diaboloists notice (in the same way???) and the GP do or dont. but if you do something it has to be noticed it's being observed, to what extent/level/cognisance will, no, must vary so weather you want to get beat up about it, well is that healthy or not?

I'll notice 3rd base more easily than somebody who hasn't got to grasps with it, but I still miss it. I'll be happier when I don't need to concretely think about it (in the way you just know what kind of knot/wrap you have by the feel say). I'd say others are probably closer to that point than me personally, some will be aware of this others will have just naturally got here them selves.

so that's all a lot clearer then? ?
Sean_

*tweakage: another concept not fully embraced by diaboloists en masse. but with parallels in several disparate (non juggling) pursuits

Tweakage exists in diabolo, it exists in pretty much everything if you look at it long enough. sometimes it goes by another name 'clicked' in freestyle bmx is something tweaked to the greatest extent (for example).. push something past where you would normally stop (maybe even stop before you get there) that is tweakage.
There's merit in being ultra precise, more power to you if this is your way but tweakage is jazz. You are playing with boundary's with tweakage and 3rdbase is about boundary's, how close can you come to that node? Can you come back, must you go forward? If you are going forward why the hell not push it for all it's got, tweak away and see how close you can get it to becoming another trick are you going to stop at that new 'trick' or are you going to bail out back to the safe point, how close are you going to leave it?

Take a simple side sun. really look at it as you do it, what is actually happening? play with it, do it tight and snappy do it loose and flowy, start one of these ways and finish the other, change the shape, get it to stall at a point really play with it. Look at the axle, the wrap, especially the wrap. Is a side sun a trick or a tweaked version of a fw/bwuw (or however you sun) where does one become the other, where are the boundaries, where are the nodes where are the bases what do you need to do to slip into another move without the previous trick existing, what does that make the next trick?

I'd say it definitely has an effect on style. If you have no interest in style (say if you are a trick robot) or don't tweak it might not be for you.
Music is not essential just a willingness to play on the boundries.
Remember I'm not saying that this is the way for everyone, some people will be geared up for it, plenty wont care either way. I happen to like tweakage and toying with boundaries. Does it effect everything I do with diabolo, not consciously and definitely not all the time, I mean if you are learning a new trick it's about nailing that trick ugly as sin if need be, when you are comfortable and have the flow thats when you get to play thats when you can put on the style.
Change you style, consider nodal points, 3rd base where the theories about 8 standard elements (and the esoteric 9th) can be brought into play. Again consciously or not, everyone is different.

Music might help but then again you can get lost in the diaboloing itself just as effectively.


Right I think you can see this is still not something I have totally nailed down yet.
So 3rd base is just like tweaking tricks to make new ones that are similar?

That is pretty succinct right there, maybe a bit to clinical, It's hard to argue with that except for maybe saying that couldn't tweakage (in the broadest terms) be more of an expansion away from the standard whilst 3rd base might be closer to smallest amount of tweak or even negative (anti?) tweak, getting as close to a boundary and escaping from that point, really making the node as small as possible untill... is it even there?
It's tweakage none the less. Is it similar (the 'trick' and the 3rdbase variant)? Yes I suppose it is, but with tweakage in play does that gold standard of a trick even apply any more if any trick can be tweaked and if something is tweaked to the nth degree untill it can be argued to be another 'trick' did that first trick actually exist?

My seed of thought is and continues to be 'How close can I come to being able to say I've pulled (entered in most cases rather than completed if you get my drift) and then exit that (ideally at the precise moment or before the node forms) 'trick' '.  Thats 3rdBase for me.

Use the force...haha
I think im starting to understand it, and if it's what im thinking of, its difficult to explain in words without saying things like "empty your mind and it will come". It's like a state of mind that is reflected through the way you use the diabolo, which can't be achieved without tweaking movement/control, and understanding the movements in all its forms, over time it comes naturally in the right frame of mind. Is that on the right track master?

This really brightened up my day. I dont know if you were being serious or joking but it added to my own personal understanding and apreciation for diabolo as a whole, and 3rd base/tweakage in particular. Thankyou either way.

I'm thinking that bases are like computer bases... base 10 is decimal, base 2 is binary, base 8 is hex, etc... they all translate down to binary, and they all get more and more complex as you get into the higher and higher bases... same thing with the tricks, lets say you have trick "A" and it's binary is 10, and the same trick "A" decimal is 2, same trick but different, more complex...

Now I've put The Moffs' thoughts here as one of the several examples of how people have looked at the vagueness (which wasnt intentional as such, remember when all this kicked of I/we were really early doors on this stuff) and developed theories on there own. Is it a valid thory? Yes, but not for 3rd base, I don't know if it was developed further than this could be the start of a useful thing in it's own right.

Will had his own thoughts 'third person diabolo'. Initially dealing with how tricks are perceived by others (visually, perspectively) there was talk of
Quote
'...diabolo from the other side- facing the other cup'... 'Well as simple as I can put it. With one diabolo its changing the wraps you're in to change (Possibly 'tweak') combos and tricks...
'For example with one of the things I did: you might be in the position to do a wrapped mini-G, but then do a big sun whilst turning 180 degrees'
This then lead onto talk about scandinavian knot theory and the stuff Norbi was into and Nev plays with at the moment (Her Flik stops etc) and then he went of to get to grips with his whole 2d vertax stuff and as far as I know hasn't given 3rd base  or 3rd person a further thought.

Others have other ideas, are they any more or less valid? Well I reckon they are valid for a given value of valid. If it's not third base it's not third base but things that are still worth looking into.
Look at this for a paradox. IF there can be a  100% concrete definition of third base (it becomes a 'trick') then 3rd base itself becomes 3rd baseable. However with the loose  but valid concept in play (be it somewhat fluid as each persons influences and understanding come to bear will affect everyone else's understanding in a fluid manner. (Hey tweakage!)

For me, it´s a matter of style. You can clear a hallway by throwing in some kind of explosive cadged, but that will affect the walls and ultimately also the feeling of the original space. So it's better to clear the air with more elegant meanings and motivations.


It can also be, that space is quite close relative to base. This is purely theoretical naturally.

Another beautiful thought. Would there be room for this with rigid conceptulisation, It put me in mind of Schroedinger's cat. I think Aaro has brought something 'elegant' to the discussion

....

I know people know about 3rdb and those that know, know how those that also know, can benefit from knowing and maybe see that a scattergun approach to everyone knowing what others know might not always be the way to go, y'know

Sorry about that one, but I think that was written at a bad time :)


Closer to home now, Short and long was given as a video with possible 3rd base in it, it has tweakage but I didn't think it had any 3rd base. back to the old who will know/be able to see paradox.
The 3rdbaseness is minimal in that video really, except when it comes to a bit of tweakage obviously. Theres a 3rd base move or two that popped up in Langerz last video. (carnage)

Got to love the 'post a tutorial' call, tutorials aren't always the answer.

Tom Derrick and another juggler had a productive session applying third base to juggling at Durham, well happy seeing it applied to other disciplines.

Sorry haven't got more time to type about it here. Might do a 3rd base workshop at the BJC though. (bit hard to get it down in words on a pc, more a concept that passes between diaboloists whilst actually diaboloing.)

I stand by that workshop/ real time chat in person, It's SO much easier to deal with this in person where you can take an individuals style and comprehension into account.

Pop back and check out Tom Derricks post and video on taking 3rd base and applying it to toss juggling. He takes a standard trick (a highly tweakable one but aren't they all) and applied his personal understanding of 3rd base (with some of my understanding and that of a juggler called Graham.
Tom came up with a new (to him move) by applying the concept which he might not necessarily have came close to developing that move through the usual jam method or beatmap or multi synch, negative space (whatever the hell tossjugglers get up to) or any one of many different techniques. So thats using 3rd base (another technique in this case) as a step towards a brand new trick, that trick in itself 3rd baseable and tweakable  etc. etc.

Graham took 3rd base to allow himself the freedom *not* to pull a trick so if 'j0j0j0j0q1w2e3r4t5j0j0j0j0' is a classically accepted trick in the past he might have considered moving into another move directly after the t5 but now he looked for a move after the 4t but that couldn't be one of the usual patterns a new one (to him at least) was required and his personal understanding of 3rd base (the 3 of us took the freedom to take it in out own way) gave him a new found freedom, joy and direction that day. I was pretty happy about that, I hope he passes it on.

Will everyone care/get it/use it see it in the 'correct' way? No but that's hardly the point, those that want to will, those that don't, wont and there be those who will be as unaware of it as the vast majority of this planet and there lives aren't going to come to an end.

So I hope you can see *my* approach to 3rd base, It isn't every bodies approach. It's a kind of reverse gestalt deal (I reckon), where pinning it down completely might relieve some frustration, my own included, but then it would kind of cease to exist. Possibly to be swallowed up under the mighty umbrella of tweakage and I think we would loose a useful tool (physically and metaphysically)

Don't think so hard about it. Go outside and tweak up your tricks. Live a little ;)

-Duncan

Benny?

  • Thanks: 4
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #128 on: October 29, 2007, 03:37:41 am »
o boy that took a long time to read

thanks seán

i think i might kinda sorta get it now :-\

Diabolo88

  • Donator
  • Thanks: 30
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #129 on: October 29, 2007, 12:03:54 pm »
I so don´t get this thread but am I on the right track at least with a 4th base being a normal suicide for example. The next step/tweakage to that would be a unwrapped inf. suicide. The next step to that would be an unwrapped, but with the string constantly coming loose ang going back under again to keep the diabolo in the air against gravity (like what happens sometimes when you first learn it) so you would be forced to rotate the string faster, and the next (ultimate) step would be to swing the stick so fast that the momentum from the string gives an "aircushion" for the diabolo to float on? Or is it all about style?

^I know how stupid this all sounds but I just can´t get my head around it. Maybe I´m missing the point completely.

seán_

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 49
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #130 on: October 29, 2007, 12:29:48 pm »
Your not missing the point at all, you are in the loop. That is a nice sequence there and part of this about making you think along those lines. I'd say be careful of thinking to concretely about ultimate steps, consider this, how does a stick swap sun relate to a suicide? Is the aircusion a genocide, would that be decided upon whether  the swing point was the tip of the stick or if you moved the pivot to the diabolo (like an isolation).
So yeah, thought processes<->feeling/touch<->style.

willum89

  • Thanks: 2
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #131 on: October 29, 2007, 03:10:52 pm »
after reading all that I felt like I was in the loop. but the more I think about it the less I understand. I get the part of tweakage/anti-tweakage I think but then how do you classify between 1,2,3,4 base?

The idea of tweakage will be fun to mess with though, if I understood it correctly. If it is what I think it is I guess I've been doing it without consciously knowing it as 'tweakage'. I'm always trying to link up tricks, turning one movement into another trick which I find is pretty easy to do with leg tricks which is why I like leg tricks so much. Also with leg there's the challenge of accelerating with a push every chance you get and trying not to let the diabolo slow down when it's going down the wrong way to see how many tricks you can link up together without having to exit.
Is that tweakage or am I still not getting it.


Marijn

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 38
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #132 on: October 29, 2007, 08:05:00 pm »
That made it sort of clearer for me. I think I have got ''into'' 3rd base a little recently, if I understand it correct. This stuff is quite interesseting, the thoughts you pointed out might give me some things to think about and play with.
''I have been practising some basic 2d suicide stuff to widen my arse''

tommi

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 4
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #133 on: October 29, 2007, 08:24:23 pm »
This is starting to sound understandable now, really good stuff to read. I've been exploring relation between sun and wrap, also string- and body-position, I believe I've been thinking 3rd Base with some moves.

the theories about 8 standard elements (and the esoteric 9th)

What are these? Or do you just mean sun, throw, wrap etc.? I cannot think eight of those anyway. If someone cares to list the 8 (or more) elements, I'll be very thankful.

Matt?

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 6
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #134 on: October 29, 2007, 09:09:42 pm »
I know all tricks are tweakable, but, are some tricks more tweakable than others?
i go for walk now? it easy to find papers! look, i got this bag of filters!

garner

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 21
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #135 on: November 04, 2007, 10:10:15 am »
If someone cares to list the 8 (or more) elements, I'll be very thankful.

well i'm sure if you search the forum for 8 principles or something similar it'll come up. but they are...
throw
wrap
sun
knot
grind
grab
stick release
whip

but this isn't a thread about the 8 principles

LaNgErZ

  • Donator
  • Thanks: 38
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #136 on: November 04, 2007, 10:42:50 am »
there is more than eight.

your just limiting yourself

i am going to prove you wrong

lz

still a strong believer in the 9th

fabled as the "cheeky chilean"
www.MightAsWellCommit.com - Diabolo Awesomeness.

Beni

  • Guest
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #137 on: November 04, 2007, 11:45:24 am »
If 3rd base is sort of taking something out of a trick, shouldn't there be a 5th base too?
That would be like putting a flourish on a trick or complicating it.
I think if 5th base is counted then I have a 5th base slackwhip. I'll try and film it soon.

Beni

(I hope I haven't got the complete wrong end of the stick ::))

Squiggle

  • Guest
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #138 on: November 04, 2007, 12:07:03 pm »
Lol, All sounds so silly to me.  All this craze about 3rd base + principals, I've had a couple people explain it to me and still don't really see it..Lol.

Matt?

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 6
Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
« Reply #139 on: November 04, 2007, 12:13:43 pm »
I think everyone should attent a Pete n' Garner workshop on the 8 principles with Garner sitting in the corner shouting random words and drinking rum and pete doing all the work. But seriously, its a real eye opener.
i go for walk now? it easy to find papers! look, i got this bag of filters!