Author Topic: Wii Diabolo game concept?  (Read 6532 times)

jojoyam

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Wii Diabolo game concept?
« on: September 29, 2006, 08:58:30 am »
Greetings everybody :)

I've been registered here for a bit but I haven't posted before, and I've been playing with diabolos for about two weeks (the actual days I "diaboloed" in, that is), but this is not the place for my introduction.

After being anxious about the Wii console ever since it was announced, I had this idea that might be nice to implement even though I'm not sure of the advantages of it.

For those of you who don't know, the Wii controller has an expansion slot in the lower part of the controller and it has motion sensors that can accurately define the current position of the controller in all 3 axis (including tilt), and I had this funny idea that if we were to come up with an extension cable that fits in the slot, with both heads of the cable identical, we would have 2 controllers with a cable between them, and I think that you guys are pretty familiar with this "setup" ;)

(P.S, off-topic: I find it rather ironic that the word "Diabolo" is considered a spelling mistake by the spell check button  :P )

The idea would be to have a Diabolo simulation game that uses the position and tilt of each controller "handstick" to simulate real diabolo handsticks and the string between them. This idea would need a lot of planning, coding and more challenges involved but I find it a bit interesting.

While I was thinking of this, I had the thought that this idea would be useless since people would be able to just pick up a real diabolo and play, but yet, I think that there are some advantages / nice aspects if something like this would be developed, in addition to introducing diabolos to people in a nice way.

What are your thoughts, people?  ::)
Yoyo influenced Diaboloing ftw! :)

Phil189

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2006, 09:47:38 am »
Hi, welcome to the forum and the world of diabolo. I am actually quite interested in the Wii, and i know all about it, i intent to get one on preorder sometime in the next month. its a very good set up of a console and the originality of the way of controlling its games will prove its success i think.

as far as a game of this nature goes, for a computer games manufacture to use such an idea is has to be very profitable, the idea for a game has to relay on the fact that hundreds of thousands of people will buy it and make the manufacture allot of money. Even tho this sounds a good idea to us diaboloests it may not sound good to a normal person walking into a computer games shop and seeing this game. they would also have to buy extra hardware such as the cable and another controller if they don't have one. this would also put people off

this seems like a good idea but the places that such a game would go to are few, it will all come down the the skill of the player using the game and if your not into diabolo you'll probely get up off if the gameplay was not like real life and for it to copy things which happen in real life such as string tangles and other mistakes it would be a very good game.

so to summarise, good idea, but the game manufactures may not want to buy into such a game unless it would have attraction to people who arnt into the diabolo, and such a game would have its limitations. thats maybe just my thoughts tho, would be happy to hear what the rest of yous guys think.

phil
Diabolo Zone - Looking for somewhere to host your diabolo videos? Share, host, view, rate, and comment on diabolo videos at Diabolo Zone. Check it out >>>> www.diabolozone.com

Dracodragon

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2006, 01:00:49 am »
Haha, ive been thinking of a diabolo type wii video game too. I found it pointless when you spend around 50 bucks for a game when you can actually spend that on a diabolo and get the real deal out of it...

I cant wait for the wii either. legend of zelda! twilight princess!
Go Draco with your Diabolo!
http://frogfighters.com/godraco/

J_J777

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2006, 01:49:48 am »
Well for some of us that can't make it to conventions, this is a way to kinda see them  :P  Also this is the way we can pull tricks that are really frustrating for us now so that we can get help that way haha.

Maybe they can make it like tony pro skater like with new stat points to be able to practice certain tricks.  I think there was an old thread about this back when Sean released his siteswap game.

Lemme try to find it.

Edit: Found it.  http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=1039.75

Josh

Matt_

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2006, 02:00:02 am »
dammit i thought that the game would be announced in this thread!! bahhh

honestly i think juggling has no place in videogames. there are some juggling minigames in the Wario Ware games and they really suck.

Damien_s_fear

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2006, 06:15:54 am »
really good idea i think there should be a diabolo game out there. however on the topic of sticks as a controller how would you do suicides/genocides? ????
just a thought
Damien

jojoyam

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2006, 07:51:05 am »
Thanks for the input so far, people  ;D

About the game probably not being worked on by major companies since they won't see profit in it, I agree on this but as I said, I'm just stating an idea, and not really discussing the probability of it being done or not (even though it would be cool if it was).

After thinking about the "Pointless when you can buy diabolos" point of view, I realized some cool advantages something like this might have. Some examples would be:

*Game-style situations and missions, such as "Throw the diabolo at the target", "Monster Hunting with a Diabolo" (Would be throwing diabolos to kill monsters?  :P  and "Catch the Diabolos", Bouncing diabolos on platforms, etc. etc.

*Ability of changing the stats of the "feel" of the diabolo, so that you could mess with custom diabolos (would probably help in Diabolo design, too). Changes such as weight, weight ratio, width, diameter maybe? etc.

*Surreal situations that would be hard to re-create in real-life. Things you'd love to experience as a Diaboloer, but would be really really hard to recreate, or even impossible. Ideas like "Zero Gravity diabolo", "Jelly string" and "Slow Mo Diabolo" come to mind.  ;)

I thought about suicides and genocides. I think they should be avoided  ;D
Yoyo influenced Diaboloing ftw! :)

-Leo-

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2006, 11:19:19 am »
I'm a big Nintendo fan and I can't wait for the Wii. The game is a funny idea but I doubt it would catch on. Although it would be cool visiting D.ca on a console seeing as the Wii and the DS both have Opera being released for them.
Behind your back is your front.

one.man.band

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2006, 10:39:10 pm »
really good idea i think there should be a diabolo game out there. however on the topic of sticks as a controller how would you do suicides/genocides? ????
just a thought
Damien

Maybe you could throw your controller at some kind of bouncy thing, and catch it again?

Anyway, i'm not so sure about this concept, it's a good idea, but i don't think it would sell.
As posted above, you can buy a real diabolo for less.

Nice idea though!
Not sure how many times my diabolos have been in the pond

Shawn Fumo

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2006, 10:22:49 pm »
Let's think about this a little deeper. Sure, there's no way it'll happen on the Wii itself (and probably won't be as hackable as something like x-box). But, perhaps someone will create an adapter for the computer at some point? Or maybe there are some like that already (I think I'd heard of 3d mice before)? For instance, I play DDR on my computer using a playstation to usb converter I bought online.

So, now you have it on the computer and can program something. The genocide thing is actually easy to solve (click a button to release or grab the stick), but I think it is more interesting as a simulator than a game. And even then, I think less as interactive and more for creation.

In order to learn tricks, it can be helpful to see it in slow motion and from different angles. But that means you need a video camera, the video takes up space, someone has to download it, etc. Anyone who's used a ball juggling simulator knows about the benefits (I can see hundreds of patterns on my pda!).

But when it comes to more complicated string tricks in something like diabolo or yo-yo, you can't boil it down to a notational system. You can theoretically simulate the physics of the diabolo and string (and sticks when not in the hand), to cut down on what has to be moved manually. However, you still need to be able to record the hand movements. Motion capture is possible but that gets into work and expense again. But having controllers that sense your motion could make that a lot easier (way more intuitive than trying to manually animate them like you would in a 3d animation program).

If you can input those motions either in real-time or keyframe positions, then the computer can fill in the rest and now the move is recorded and can be played back at any speed and from any angle. Theoretically, moves could be strung together to make combos on the fly, etc.

If you hadn't guessed already, I've been considering trying to make a simulator (for yo-yos), but maybe a diabolo one would be a better idea to start with. Because you're dealing with sticks instead of 10 fingers and there is a little less string self-collision in diabolo (though still enough). I'll have to see if there's any off-the-shelf 3d motion controllers, etc.

Or if any amazing programmers are out there, I can give you links to the research papers on string simulation I was looking at.. ;)

On another thought, an actual useful live simulation could be for learning the correct motion for the 2-diabolo shuffle. I'm not entirely sure how useful it'd be without feeling the weight of the diabolos, but perhaps you could train your hands to the correct overall motion before having to use live diabolos. Could perhaps cut the learning time a bit...

GbH

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2006, 11:19:18 pm »
Hi Shawn, interesting post.  A few thoughts in response...

1.  You're observations about the hackability, if that's the right word, of the Wii seem reasonable, but I think that there's possibly one possibility that you've overlooked - that the Wii controller concept will be cloned and developed accross multiple hardware platforms.  If the Wii controller is as good as people are hyping it to be, I find it hard believe that similar hardware won't become commonplace anyway.

2.  Yes, 3D mice exist.  I use one myself.  However, not only are they quite expensive, but many people find them (initially, at least...) tricky to use.  I suspect, for the diabolo simulation to be effective, you'd have to use two of the things - something, that for one reason or another, just isn't going to happen.

What would be REALLY cool would be a couple of Phantom Omni controllers (look it up...).  Not only would this be a lot more like using handsticks, but you may also be able to get the haptic feedback to simulate the weight of the diabolos hitting the string.  The only problem with this would be the cost - they're significantly more than the 3D mice.

Another possiblity - a simple DIY option that can be done very cheaply - would be to use a system that has a camera/cameras following hand-held lights.  You can already freely download software that will achieve this, using just a webcam, two penlights and two ping-pong balls.  It does work, but, when we tried it in the office, found the environment had to be pretty dark to get any useful result.  Kinda fun, though.


3. For the string simulation, there would probably be no need for a 3D developer to worry unduly about programming this.  For real-time 3D projects, it's usual to use a third party physics library, created by specialists in that field, rather than create the necessary functionality yourself.  Usually, such libraries include a 'rope simulation' - which is what you'd need for this project.  Alternatively, if you were just wanting to create a 3D animation, then most (if not all) of the high end 3D modelling packages include their own dynamics simulation.  As an experiment, I created a short kendama movie clip like this, once, so don't see why you couldn't do a diabolo version the same way.


Now I think about it, I quite like the idea of creating a real-time diabolo sim/game myself.  Unfortunately, the physics library I've currently got isn't up to the job.  However, there's a replacement due sometime this year, so if I'm able to get that (could be a funding issue...), I might try a few experiments and see what happens.   


Guy


Ethos

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2006, 02:34:48 am »
That would be a great idea. my parents are alwayse complaining at me for diaboloing in my house so a video-game for rainy days would be good.

as for the whole suicide thing all that you have to do is press the B button to relese the stick and put the controler where it should be to catch it and theres your non-controler breaking way of doing suicides.
woot
Ethos

tomangleberger

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2006, 03:05:22 am »
I was the one who made the Mans Chew Game diabolo last year, so here's my 2 cents after having spent hours up to my handsticks in code:

The game was a lot of fun to make and maybe a little fun to play, but not nearly as much fun as messing around with a real diabolo.

However, I agree that using the wii sticks would be a lot more fun than typing numbers, which is what you had to do in my game.

Trying to throw a siteswap would be very hard with wii sticks, since you wouldn't have the weight of the diabolo to help you gauge how hard to throw for a 3, 4,5, etc...

Another problem  is that the fun/pain of diabolos is in the act of getting the string in the right x/y/z axis to catch the diabolo. It would be very hard for the user to "read" z-axis error in a video game. Plus, z-axis error would have to be limited to keep you from diving over the TV set to get a wild throw. And the x-axis  error would have to be artificially limited,  too, or you'd end up running too far from the TV.

J_J777

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2006, 03:34:26 am »
Or maybe to make it easier we can just make it like Tony Hawk Pro Skater games.   You know like assign diff. combos to the tricks and the direction pad thingy to movement.

Josh

Ethos

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2006, 03:47:54 am »
Or maybe to make it easier we can just make it like Tony Hawk Pro Skater games.   You know like assign diff. combos to the tricks and the direction pad thingy to movement.

Josh

That would also be cool then it can be on more platforms than just the wii.

A story of come sort would be cool as well.

I wonder what buton would be for doing grinds *cough*Triangle*cough*.

the only problem is a diabolo video game is kinda not action packed if not on the wii because what would the character do, just stand there... maby if you could add free running (very VERY hard) in to it then it may keep some peoples attention.
woot
Ethos

Shawn Fumo

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2006, 12:41:22 am »
Guy,

Yeah, hopefully someone will clone the functionality of the Wii. If the console becomes popular, I could see PC game manufacturers wanting to get in on that. I'll also check out those others you mentioned and the webcam tracking (that could be really interesting).

For the string simulation, I already looked into a couple of existing physics libraries. They'd suffice for some of the simpler diabolo stuff, but I think it could break down. When I was researching for yo-yo simulation, the main problem was the self-collision. I posted on some of the engines' forums and as soon as I went "well, I'd like to have a knot type formation", they were like "uh-oh". The combination of having a string with very little stretch and needing multiple string segments sliding against each other makes for something most of the physics engines weren't really designed to handle. I'd ideally like a program that could handle Spirit Bomb. Even something like Tiger Cradle in diabolo would be tricky I think.

Quote
Now I think about it, I quite like the idea of creating a real-time diabolo sim/game myself.  Unfortunately, the physics library I've currently got isn't up to the job.  However, there's a replacement due sometime this year, so if I'm able to get that (could be a funding issue...), I might try a few experiments and see what happens.   

That'd be cool to see. Let me know if you get any more information on that.

It isn't loading for me at the moment, but hopefully just down temporarily. This page has Joel Brown's research paper on simulation of knot tying, as well as some videos:
http://biocomp.stanford.edu/people/joel/

Shawn

Steve-O

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2007, 08:14:49 pm »
i have been thnking about this for quite a while and was telling myself that the best part might be the fact that you would be able to do it inside for when the weather is crappy and your parents don't want you diabing in the house although many tricks would be lost such as all suicides as well as cradles knots but orbits could still be done one mor epoint is that the wii is online enabled well with that you could compare stats all across the wii nation ( i know that is not a real country)

Dan

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2007, 10:05:00 pm »
Never saw this thread and now i see it for the first time while looking at it on my wii  :D  As for the idea: well to be perfectly honest it would be a novelty (much like the console i think - although red steel was/is really fun with multiplayer mayhem) plus i would rather just pick up a set of sticks and some diabolos and whack out some "real" tricks.  Anyway im lazy and don't want to write anymore so ill leave it as this.

Dan

Shaun

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Re: Wii Diabolo game concept?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2007, 04:56:49 am »
id rather buy a new diabolo. unless you could make it more exciting, like passing across tall buildings and throwing diabolos at people. you could put the cheats in and do 20d low!