Author Topic: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)  (Read 14013 times)

nev

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2007, 03:28:45 pm »
And I thought we referred to our collective selves as a community.... tut tut.... nuff said.
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Chiok

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2007, 12:54:49 am »
I think that stealing someones 'signature trick' is wrong. I don't think things like basic suiecides, genocides, and inf. suicides can be included. <snip>
Who gets to say where the line is drawn?  Why shouldn't they count? 

I think diabolo is in an area or uniqueness where new tricks are accessible for all to discover, although some may argue it's getting harder and harder to come up with new tricks.  I used to think that writing music was difficult because all the good melodies were taken.  Yet new songs come out every Monday that we've never heard before (although more and more do seem like remixes...)

I can understand Arjan's position that a trick which he considers one of his own "special breed" is used in a commerical video with some possible monetary gain.  However I think if the bigger picture is observed; performers and jugglers do not often become famous because of the tricks they do or create, they become famous because of their performance.  It's not just the tricks, it's the way the act and routine go together.  Priam, William Liang, Donald Grant, Ryo Yabe etc. don't do much that we haven't seen before elsewhere, but their performance is what makes them different.  Their energy, their style and grace, their skill, their choice of music and costume.  The entire act is special to them, the tricks are just part of the package (some may argue a big part, like the string).

If it were an entire copy of an act, then that is plagerism of Wally West proportions.  If it's one or two tricks, perhaps think of them as "references" (although you still have to state sources...)

Something to think about perhaps,

Chiok
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Arjan

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2007, 01:21:44 am »
All the tricks i mentioned at some point were someones signature trick. I found a diabolo performance from the 60's where the highlight was a  very short 2 diabolo run, his "signature" trick at the time. Three diabolos for a long time was guy heathcoates "signature" trick, you dont see him moaning about everyone doing it now. Over time the tricks we perform become less and less impressive, the only way to stay on top is to always create new tricks and stay one step ahead. When Diabology was released it was all unique and special, but ther are very few tricks in it which lots of people arent currently performing. People are always gonna copy your styles tricks you perform, if people have learnt your trick is time to create a new routine. Besides the only people who watch these videos are diabolists, if you do want to become a proffesional performer you need to appeal to a much wider audience, so it really doesnt matter who copies your tricks. And who knows the way someone develops your trick may help you further improve it yourself. You cant copyright a trick, how many times has someone commented on a trick of the week with a "dam thought id invented that" i know its happened to me more than once.

All the tricks i learnt originally were from JiBes site, should i use his name every time i do a diabolo performance? We all take our influence from many different places, the trick in question was something arjan developed from a previous trick anyway, i am genuinly annoyed by his reaction. Keep stealing keep innovating keep enjoying diaboloing, and arjan accept that your tricks will get stolen . . .

Offcourse Nez, because of the evolution of diabolo the level becomes higher and original and new stuff will once be considered basic and people actually start experimenting and developing with it. But in my opinion some tricks are so specifically different in ways they should be considered finished. No need to work on them any further, their done. The point has been made. "It's possible one time, it's possible more time with 3 different entrances and exits.

Yes the people who watch these video's are diabolists only. They actually see the differences or resemblances. That scares me even more! I don't care about the people who don't really care about the originality and technical level of the performers, I care about the audiences who actually do see that and who do care about that. And off course I care about the "normal" audience, but just in a different way, about other facets of the performance which they actually also care about.

then.. wtf!?! how much personal compos/tricks you arjan have? about 300-400 or ten times more perhaps? and im pretty sure your get few more when you next time take sticks to your hands.. i am not really sure that sander knew he copy that stuff from somewhere..

why eric and antonin didnt yell here to allmost every diabolist?

About the first bit: Actually it's hard to keep on being creative. And the fact Sander does the exact same trick as me, but only in a combo with a different exit says really this was not a mistake.

Why they didn't yell? Well off course I can't speak for them, but I don't think they care enough to yell at almost everyone here. Or they don't want to be annoyed by it anymore at least.

Only in an enviroment where ideas and tricks are freely shared can the artform continue to develop.

Also isn't there the possibility two people in two seperate places have the same idea and develop the same trick independently. Who's "signiture" trick is it then?

So everybody should start doing the exact same thing? I actually hope this discussion leads to a much better environment in which the art form continues to develop it self.

About the last question, please do your research, it's very clear that is not the situation as it is in this case.

@Arjan
Why is there a tutorial on this site for your 2d mini-gen if you don't want people to copy your tricks?

This was a video of the week, something I completely decided on my own to send it in and share it so people could experiment on it. Because at that time a 2D mini gen was not a common thing, I think it did open up new possibilities.

I think it's time for some people to wake up, smell the air and realise what the majority of us are here for

No I think it's time for me to start my own forum just like A.G. and dictate that. That's a better approach anyway  :P

they didn't? they still keep on teaching their stuff in conventions and cirkus schools..

Yeah but not in a way like: "Look this is one of my best signature tricks, it works like this..."

I can understand Arjan's position that a trick which he considers one of his own "special breed" is used in a commerical video with some possible monetary gain.  However I think if the bigger picture is observed; performers and jugglers do not often become famous because of the tricks they do or create, they become famous because of their performance.  It's not just the tricks, it's the way the act and routine go together.  Priam, William Liang, Donald Grant, Ryo Yabe etc. don't do much that we haven't seen before elsewhere, but their performance is what makes them different.  Their energy, their style and grace, their skill, their choice of music and costume.  The entire act is special to them, the tricks are just part of the package (some may argue a big part, like the string).

If it were an entire copy of an act, then that is plagerism of Wally West proportions.  If it's one or two tricks, perhaps think of them as "references" (although you still have to state sources...)

Something I wrote about this before reading your response:

Okay I will exaggerate a little bit here: Let's say I videotaped a performance by let's say Tony. I watch the video carefully, train very hard, so I can do the exact routine. Then I actually perform the exact thing, what would you guy's think about that?
To me this is the same thing only on a much higher level. I'm totally against something like this. So it's a principal matter pointed out by Martijn in the other weird topic, something which I completely support.

Off course we have keep in mind there is a difference between internet video and performances. But that's not the issue in my opinion.



And a last thing, people, please read the whole tread before repeating questions, opinions, motivations or anything which has been said or mentioned before.

I think this will be my last reply in this topic since it takes a lot of energy to keep repeating myself. Unless when I feel like reacting on something. And don't worry, we're not going to agree with each other on everything, but we will all be able to learn from it.
 
(That was probably one of my most time consuming post ever!)

god_is_a_dj

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2007, 02:59:02 am »
it's all about money... :'( The feeling to own something.
World is bad and sad, everywhere there is war and famine. So you have been stolen? What 's your damage ?
Do you think the first homo sapien who did make fire has been stolen when another one came , took a brushwood ignited to light his own fire ? I don't think so.
Open your mind!!! Let the diabolo stay a beach toy, and enjoy ...
sorry to make this topic become political and philosophical but art must be free to be art else it's only marketing.

Guillaume... the utopian

jelen

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2007, 01:46:17 pm »
A few weeks ago we had in the spanish forum the same discussion... But I'm going to say my own point of view. I also want to be a professional (I'm in a circus school right now entering 2ยบ year) so I really understand arjan but at the same time I understand many of you. It's true that copying tricks makes diabolo evolution... but is that a reason to post a video with a trick to have copied from another person?

Here in spain I've been a year teaching diabolo in nearly all the conventions and I start always with a small speech where I talk about this. When we had this same thread on the spanich forum stung (JDZ) remembered me the first time I met them. They were good diaboloist they had been training for not so much but they had copied all the tricks from diabology, but not just that they had some jibe leg movements on the same tricks. So I told them my usual speech about how in diabolo it's much easier to create an original rotuine just If you think a bit more not just copyig. I really think the diabolo in comparison with other juggling objects it's very easy to be original. Well this guy now is one of the more original diabolists I've seen and their act is very original.

Another point we got on the theme in spain was to what point internet is doni good to diabolo. In my case I watch a lot of videos  ( really I have a lot) And I like watching videos and really they've helped me a lot. But I've nere watched a trick in slow motion so I can get it. I just get some ideas of what the other person does. So form my point of view internet makes ba to dibolo depending the way you use it.


arjan good luck in becoming a professional.


Robin!

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2007, 08:50:16 am »
Wanna be famous ??? Try to sing or to act !!

guillaume

Who doesn't??

Ginger_Tom

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2007, 01:51:39 am »
Not all of us are influenced by the MFP, but I do agree with Arjan on signature trick stealing. Garner, stop being a suck up, but to be fair, you have a point: God_is_a_DJ: Your a ****.

Cheers for the community vote though nev, but . . .

Nuff said.

GT
Out of focus lovin', Mark_BMC you legend!

garner

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2007, 09:09:41 am »
Garner, stop being a suck up

oi, i'll suck whatever i want!

karl e dangerous

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2007, 11:43:04 am »
i cant help but agree that all tricks were once someones signiture trick and yeah you should be proud of a trick you invent but you should be willing to share also if you want to keep it to yourself dont perform it to any one keep it to your self and die with it but if you want to be remembered for it then share it i mean everybody knows trash's web when i see/do it i know were it comes from
sorry for my bad grammer

Arjan

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2007, 12:42:42 pm »
Just a point came to my thought:

Do you see painters making the exact same painting?
Not really, although there are people who are specialized in making replica's. Plus really famous paintings are often available on a poster format.

Do you hear musicians playing the exact same song?
Nope, except in classical music where an orchestra plays pieces written by famous composers. And remixes off course.

Do you see dancers dancing the exact same piece?
No, with the exception for again classical pieces like the swan lake.



Ginger_Tom

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2007, 04:25:47 pm »
Bravo Arjan bravo.
Put Karl-e-Dangerous's point to shame.
And garner, I love you . . . . . . . . . .
 :-*

GT
Out of focus lovin', Mark_BMC you legend!

Diabolo Bro

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2007, 07:30:03 pm »
I get how someone could get upset if someone steals their trick without credit. But the other half of me thinks that it may be a compliment to do someone elses trick. I mean if you like the trick enough to learn it yourself then that seems like it would be flattering in a way. However I do agree that it is arjan's trick and he probably should has been asked or credited for it.
98 percent of the population will die at some point in their lives.

J_J777

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2007, 12:29:27 am »
Just a point came to my thought:

Do you see painters making the exact same painting?
Not really, although there are people who are specialized in making replica's. Plus really famous paintings are often available on a poster format.

Do you hear musicians playing the exact same song?
Nope, except in classical music where an orchestra plays pieces written by famous composers. And remixes off course.

Do you see dancers dancing the exact same piece?
No, with the exception for again classical pieces like the swan lake.

Notice how he started off with your trick and ended differently.  It's a remix of a trick by a famous diaboloist.  I believe that anyone can learn any trick that they wish to because learning more tricks lead to improvement and variations.  For example, your 2 diabolo mini genocide entrance (the inverse trapzee thing) was used by nev to do some crazy entrance into an s-fan (check the trick of the week). 

Also Ryo Yabe (I believe) invented the fan 360.  But now look at all the variations like C-fan 360, reverse 360 etc etc.  Feed the Sun 2-3 by Priam now is done by anyone who knows how to do 3.  It has been improved upon to 2-3-2-3-2-3-2 etc and 1-2-3 and 3-2-1.  You could call those signature tricks because they are know for them. 

Whatever you may think of my opinion, I think Martijn got it right when he said to just shut up and juggle.

Josh

LaNgErZ

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2007, 12:46:03 am »
Notice how he started off with your trick and ended differently.  It's a remix of a trick by a famous diaboloist.  I believe that anyone can learn any trick that they wish to because learning more tricks lead to improvement and variations.  For example, your 2 diabolo mini genocide entrance (the inverse trapzee thing) was used by nev to do some crazy entrance into an s-fan (check the trick of the week). 

its only a mount, i dont think that counts at all now does it. you could say that at about countless amounts of tricks and you would get the same response, its all about where you draw the line. everyone has got a concionce it's just wheather they would admit it or not

lz
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J_J777

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2007, 12:55:04 am »
But so you're saying that you just shouldn't learn anyone else's tricks.  That's just going to stop people from learning any tricks because advancement of diabolo depends on improvement and making more variations on tricks that are already created.  True completely new tricks could also be created but if you don't improve on tricks that you already have then you lose a whole avenue of tricks that could be done. 

Another example that I thought of is a captured suicide that monregi does in his really old video that was invented by Priam if you want to see it.  Busk or maybe Jacob, I forget invented this variation on the suicide which utilized a different sided wrap which allowed the diaboloist to enter an armstall then do a under the arm release with the other diabolo.  It was quite a cool trick but it wouldn't have been created if diaboloists don't share tricks. 

Also I can understand that you have a certain attachment to "your" trick but no one can prevent someone else from learning a trick.  Anyways, I'll go shut up and juggle.

Josh

nev

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2007, 01:27:12 am »
For example, your 2 diabolo mini genocide entrance (the inverse trapzee thing) was used by nev to do some crazy entrance into an s-fan (check the trick of the week). 
Josh

Right - this topic is getting stupidly out of hand now - the above was used in a different context - Arjans mini-g also used this bit of a trick in a different context to the original (antonin I believe?). 

Back on topic - What is plainly wrong is to use someones trick when the said trick has not been put out on video yet - a live performance is something people work long and hard for and should be respected as such - Once tricks contained within such a performance have been released to video, then I guess they are fair game as the creator has deemed them shared to the mass public by those actions (especially in this day & age of youtube)  It is right that Arjan feels aggrieved that an original trick included in a live performance has been shown on video (not performed by him) - whilst it would be foolish to think that people would not try and replicate a trick seen - it is totally wrong to then commit this trick to video before the creator has done so.

Rant over - Signing off now
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Eric Moffett

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2007, 02:24:15 am »
Do you hear musicians playing the exact same song?
Nope, except in classical music where an orchestra plays pieces written by famous composers. And remixes off course.

Well being in band, I know that my band directors will add their own personal touch to whatever song we are playing, whether a simple dynamic change, or cutting a whole part out, and playing a different pattern. Same song their touch, but when they announce the song before the performance, they say Original Song Name by Original Song Composer, not Original Song Name by Band Directors...
Diabolo Acquired - Thurday, 2/08/07
Vertax Skill Acquired - Thursday, 4/12/07
2 Diabolo Skill Acquired - Tuesday, 5/29/07
3 Diabolo Skill Acquired - Eh, No?

William

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2007, 05:48:34 am »
Okay, this is just stupid. We have established that stealing the trick on its own is bad. There is no need to carry on. Get over it. Move on and talk about something interesting.

Edit: I think the MFP did well by not having a bitch and moan about people doing their moves- Could you imagine the argument that could of elevated into?
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

LaNgErZ

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2007, 08:24:57 am »
But so you're saying that you just shouldn't learn anyone else's tricks. 
Josh

WHEN DID I SAY ANYTHING OF THE SORT! AHHHHHHHHH!!

lz
www.MightAsWellCommit.com - Diabolo Awesomeness.

Duncan

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Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2007, 01:45:29 pm »
Off-topic @ Langerz and Josh

You both are agreeing, you just haven't seen it yet. Also, Langerz has not said once that you shouldn't learn anyone else's tricks.

On-topic

Ever heard of the time Michael Moschen's triangle act being stolen by Rejean St. Jules? That is most definitely a creative theft. But, this was about a whole act Mr. Moschen spent years coming up with, not just a trick.

http://jasongarfield.com/fans/hack.php?PHPSESSID=753681c60eed1239aa8a138d3aaa95a9

Any of you who follow WJF or Jason have probably read this. This forums discussion is essentially the diet version since we seem to only be dealing with single tricks being stolen, not entire acts. I think we can all agree that an entire act being thieved is pretty substantial and deserves scrutiny - a trick that someone has released on video is probably fair game and means the performer is comfortable enough letting you see it (MFP education section). However, it is probably wise to go and ask the person if you can use a trick for a show/video/whatever before use. Sean_ made mention of permission earlier in the topic. If anyone did Eric and Antonin's filophile act, I'm sure they would get hot and bothered because that would be a series of moves that they have strung together to form a very intelligent and creative act being used by someone who didn't even put any thought into the performance. It's essentially plagiarism. If you go away and learn a move for your own private use, so be it. If you want to attempt to present a bunch of tricks that look very familiar (ie stolen) to a community, and you have made money off of those tricks, then you should probably wear your cup for protection. We just used music as an example, and we found it has similar problems.

Arjan's whole point was if Sander made money off the trick that he knows he came up with - essentially the same question performers ask when people use their material on stage - not a philosophical discussion about community. Although, it has been a useful one.