Author Topic: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)  (Read 13998 times)

looby

  • Donator
  • Thanks: 55
To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« on: July 11, 2007, 12:10:52 pm »
Is this video for commercial use? In that case the quality is way to low, and there is something else I find rather disturbing. You stole my trick! I'm seriously pissed about how you just take people's original stuff and put it just in a slight different combo. Stop putting beginning and ends together and start coming up with your own identity.

Handbags at five paces ladies. In seriousness though he hasn't claimed it to be his own and your reaction seems a tad immature for someone of your age.  Do we see Tempei kicking up a fuss over m4u and the diabolo feeling duo doing an infinite excalibur suicide?  I thought not.  Take a minute, chillax and think about why people are here.  We're not here to "steal" others tricks, take them into competition and make a living from it.  Its called having fun, the sooner you realize that the better.
Rennes July 10-17th 2011!

garner

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 21
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2007, 01:08:39 pm »
i love you arjan

Arjan

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 70
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2007, 03:13:02 pm »
Well Arjan, I guess that had to be said, but don't you think you could have pointed out some good aspects of the video as well?

Yes, I already did, nice steeling there. Even better, using it in your own "creative" combo's

By curiosity, which is the stolen trick in question ?

I think it's actually 2, but I'm not sure. I hope you understand as a creater I'd rather not drag to much attention to it otherwise probably you'll see 10 other people doing or using it in their next video.

I want it to be a trick that when people see it, they think of me. Like my blind orbits for example. So a warning for you folks out there, I'll actually physically hurt you!!!  ;)

In seriousness though he hasn't claimed it to be his own and your reaction seems a tad immature for someone of your age.  Do we see Tempei kicking up a fuss over m4u and the diabolo feeling duo doing an infinite excalibur suicide?

Immature?? Now I am the one who gets it? I'm not immature, I'm just very protective of my own stuff, and proud of it as well.

As for Tempei, don't get me started on him. Let's just say he's someone who also does his research really good.

M4u totally rocks btw... started diabolo less than a year ago, and already pulling a lot of original stuff. And I'm not talking about inf vertax suicide, that's something that had to be done (logical idea, you tilt the diabolo 90 degrees and you have an awesome trick)

i love you arjan

Thanks garner, I knew I could count on you!



Okay folks, in this last post I'm overreacting just a tad and blowing things up. And sorry if I'm insulting anyone around, but all I wanted was to make my point. Originality is something very important to me. It's already bad enough that the whole new diabolo generation is mainly influenced by the MFP and the hard work they put into diabolo and Diabology. And yes, I was and still am inspired by them too in a big way.

god_is_a_dj

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 1
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2007, 04:47:12 pm »
ideas are free !!!

nezzybaby

  • Thanks: 1
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2007, 06:06:27 pm »
Ah whiter than white arjan, never stolen a trick yourself?? you must be the creator of the sun, acceleration, whips, suicides, genocides, integrals, excalibur, two diabolos, sprinklers, antisuicides, string climbs, knots, or can you honestly say you've never used any of these tricks??

At some point every trick has to be invented, you cant copyright them

Martijn

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 113
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2007, 06:21:56 pm »
Arjan is talking about signature tricks nezzy, not classic tricks. Let's not diverge from the issue. Although I think Arjan might be a bit *too* proud on his stuff... he's got a point guys.

And sure, no one's gonna stop you doing tricks from other diaboloists, but it's all about having the decency to respect the creator's wishes. Let's keep this a friendly and close community.
download Made in Taiwan at www.arjangroenendijk.nl

god_is_a_dj

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 1
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2007, 08:04:00 pm »
I want it to be a trick that when people see it, they think of me.

Wanna be famous ??? Try to sing or to act !!

Arjan, I really like your vids, your tricks ideas, and your personnal style, but the question are: why do you play diabolo ? and make vids? Why are you disappointed when you saw someone doing "your" trick?

I can understand your first reaction, but the fact is that you have to be proud to see " your" trick and that's all!!
If sander p do it , it's because he likes it!! enought to work on it.

I find you very boasting, to think you own some tricks. May you have discover it,ok ,but nothing can prouve you that you are the first.

As conclusion, if you don't want to be "steal", don't show your tricks. That's the only and uninteresting way.

guillaume

garner

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 21
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2007, 09:15:14 pm »
@god_is_a_dj: lay off arjan, he already clarified his position. so nothing needs to be said!

god_is_a_dj

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 1
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2007, 09:46:58 pm »
I don't want to aggress him, I want to make him happy to see "his" tricks, to share my point of view.

guillaume

Arjan

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 70
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2007, 10:13:30 pm »
Wanna be famous ??? Try to sing or to act !!

Arjan, I really like your vids, your tricks ideas, and your personnal style, but the question are: why do you play diabolo ? and make vids? Why are you disappointed when you saw someone doing "your" trick?

Actually yes I do want to be famous, with performing as a pro diabolist  ;)

And that directly answer your question, I play diabolo because one day it will be my profession. And when I perform and some of you guys come to watch I want you to think: wow, that was actually nice! In order for the audience to think that I believe a performance should be very good both technical or artistically/ original.

I would like to hear a response from sander maybe?

Because I didn't bring this up to annoy him but to provoke you guys en girls out here to think about this topic. Hopefully it might bring a small boost, and when people make a video next time they will at least consider this.

nezzybaby

  • Thanks: 1
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2007, 10:28:20 pm »
Arjan is talking about signature tricks nezzy, not classic tricks. Let's not diverge from the issue. Although I think Arjan might be a bit *too* proud on his stuff... he's got a point guys.

And sure, no one's gonna stop you doing tricks from other diaboloists, but it's all about having the decency to respect the creator's wishes. Let's keep this a friendly and close community.

All the tricks i mentioned at some point were someones signature trick. I found a diabolo performance from the 60's where the highlight was a  very short 2 diabolo run, his "signature" trick at the time. Three diabolos for a long time was guy heathcoates "signature" trick, you dont see him moaning about everyone doing it now. Over time the tricks we perform become less and less impressive, the only way to stay on top is to always create new tricks and stay one step ahead. When Diabology was released it was all unique and special, but ther are very few tricks in it which lots of people arent currently performing. People are always gonna copy your styles tricks you perform, if people have learnt your trick is time to create a new routine. Besides the only people who watch these videos are diabolists, if you do want to become a proffesional performer you need to appeal to a much wider audience, so it really doesnt matter who copies your tricks. And who knows the way someone develops your trick may help you further improve it yourself. You cant copyright a trick, how many times has someone commented on a trick of the week with a "dam thought id invented that" i know its happened to me more than once.

All the tricks i learnt originally were from JiBes site, should i use his name every time i do a diabolo performance? We all take our influence from many different places, the trick in question was something arjan developed from a previous trick anyway, i am genuinly annoyed by his reaction. Keep stealing keep innovating keep enjoying diaboloing, and arjan accept that your tricks will get stolen . . .

"imitation is the highest form of flattery"

Jussi

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 13
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2007, 10:50:45 pm »
i liked video a lot, not too long and nice to watch.. right..

then.. wtf!?! how much personal compos/tricks you arjan have? about 300-400 or ten times more perhaps? and im pretty sure your get few more when you next time take sticks to your hands.. i am not really sure that sander knew he copy that stuff from somewhere..

and if somebody do something you have invented, so what? everybody does it.. example.. when "baguettes and diabolos" came out that video included REALLY original stuff.. and after that there was tons of videos where diabolists did antonin's and eric's stolen stuff and not just stolen "Even better, using it in their own "creative" combo's" (why eric and antonin didnt yell here to allmost every diabolist?)

"Like my blind orbits for example. So a warning for you folks out there, I'll actually physically hurt you!!!"

I dont know anything about your blind orbits. Better to me then.

(my first though was that this stuff look a little bit like pranay - so i was wrong, maybe EDIT: and last trick was from umberto am i right?)

Martijn

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 113
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2007, 11:09:44 pm »
when "baguettes and diabolos" came out that video included REALLY original stuff.. and after that there was tons of videos where diabolists did antonin's and eric's stolen stuff and not just stolen

So because it happened... it's a good thing?

(why eric and antonin didnt yell here to allmost every diabolist?)

I'm 99% sure they didn't like it.

EDIT: and last trick was from umberto am i right?

If you mean that integral - no, it's Antonin's.
download Made in Taiwan at www.arjangroenendijk.nl

Martin_

  • Thanks: 3
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2007, 11:56:26 pm »
For diabolo to progress as a juggling artform the community must be able to share tricks and ideas. Otherwise how can anyone expect progress or advancement to be made. I bet without both diabology, juggling conventions and this forum there would be a significently less good diaboloists out there. Also the diaboloists that would still be there would not be even close to the level of ability we now see.

Only in an enviroment where ideas and tricks are freely shared can the artform continue to develop. Also isn't there the possibility two people in two seperate places have the same idea and develop the same trick independently. Who's "signiture" trick is it then?

The fact this is even an issue boggles my mind.

Darragh

  • Thanks: 4
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2007, 12:10:01 am »
this web site should be closed down because people are learning diabolo tricks here, thats a bad and evil thing.

hell no. let the good times role

and i love watching videos in slow motion and learning new tricks.

its not stealing its sharing
From lost to the river

Alex!

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 24
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2007, 12:21:54 am »
@Arjan
Why is there a tutorial on this site for your 2d mini-gen if you don't want people to copy your tricks?
STOP! HAMMER 'TIJN

looby

  • Donator
  • Thanks: 55
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2007, 01:51:41 am »
This is possibly the most petty issue to come out of this forum.  I'm gob smacked at how serious the issue of a "toy" trick being imitated by someone different to the apparent creator has become.  We're not talking race horses here, with a prize winner and cert first place being pinched by a fellow jockey.  It's a diabolo people.  Enjoy it , go to conventions, share your tricks/ideas, make new friends etc etc.  I for one am currently working on an anti suicide to switch anti suicide (clockwise to anticlockwise anti suicide (lefty)).  I'd love to see people trying to pull it off considering the difficulty I've had with it.

Good luck becoming a professional Arjan meant in all seriousness, but don't put down someone who's quite obviously doing it for some fun.  If I did a performance I may slip in a few"signature" tricks.  Out of spite? No.  if anything it would be to showcase others achievements and represent the progression of a tight knit community and open the publics eyes to the possibilities of diabolo.

I think it's time for some people to wake up, smell the air and realise what the majority of us are here for
Rennes July 10-17th 2011!

seán_

  • Moderator
  • Thanks: 49
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2007, 03:19:23 am »
I've been giving this some thought today and talking to some diaboloists about it. I dont think we can really call dibs on moves as such but I also think that things kind of change for diaboloists depending on circumstances.

When a diaboloist of a certain level (and I'd say Sander falls well within that level) performs or does a video, it could be argued that if you see something unusual you would assume it's 'their' trick. So if it has tricks that are rarely seen/ signature tricks from Arjan, Antonin, Eric, Marc Cabry, William and Zack (and others?) and you were unaware of those moves (or those diaboloists) as might be the case for a video shot for a shop whose aim is to reach a new market it might have the potential to ruffle feathers.

Certain moves are standards perhaps, Like sprinklers I dont think Dave P is going to throw a fit about people using them but then again he didn't at the time they first came out (AFAIK). There are moves out there which could be seen as signature moves or moves that are that far out of the norm that we attribute them to one diaboloist or another. Take Trashes 2d hook stick trick thing Plenty of diaboloists can do that move but I dont think I have seen that one performed or in a video.

I use 2 moves in my routine that I really like that I saw done (or a variation done) by 2 diaboloists I admire very much. I dont know if these diaboloists would remember me asking but I did ask them if it was ok to use them in my routine and I feel better for having done so. Marc Cabry came up to me after a performance and apologised for 'doing one of your tricks' during his spot, as it happens It wasn't one of my tricks, it was an old standard but I apreciated that he thought about what he performed and cared enough to see if I was bothered.

I think people have pride in moves they invent, and the should do, sometimes a nod to those you are emulating wouldn't go amiss.

Anyhow that's some of the thoughts I had today - one of the others that I had was 'standing on the shoulders of giants'

Oh BTW any thoughts on why we dont see videos of the stuff Eric and Antonin have been working on since diabology?

Matt D

  • Thanks: 0
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2007, 03:51:11 am »
I think that stealing someones 'signature trick' is wrong. I don't think things like basic suiecides, genocides, and inf. suicides can be included. But if you someone puts your trick into thier own combo then it is air. This also should help push the original trick maker, because it opens up new things to be learnt.

Jussi

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 13
Re: To steal or not to steal (from yospin vid)
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2007, 10:52:15 am »
So because it happened... it's a good thing?

for diabolo.. yes.. if i understand anything what MFP has spoke about it that was their purpose also.

I'm 99% sure they didn't like it.

they didn't? they still keep on teaching their stuff in conventions and cirkus schools..

but yeah, its okay that people are different - i hope everybody take as much my stuff that ever is possible.. here is example that i put there over year ago - why dont anybody steal it and do it solid and continously.. its not that bad trick if you learn it better than i, isnt it  :-[

http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=1710.0