Author Topic: bearing diabolo is it cheating??  (Read 11161 times)

mofro

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bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« on: August 14, 2007, 01:40:45 pm »
when i went to the crawley convention (my first convention ;D) i found out something that disturbed me slightly, a lot of people that i met thought that baring diabolos were cheating! even to the extent being that i was slated for using them. now i have a very similar style to langerz (as he has been a BIG influence on me) so i love the idea of a diabolo that you can do tricks faster harder and longer. obviously i can apprecate the fact that its not to everybody's taste but should i really be put down for my style and choice of diab??
so basically what are peoples opinions on the matter is it cheating or just evolution (like what happend with yoyo's) and as a whole do people like the fast, slacky, complex string tricks and webs. or because people cant understand whats going on is it then classed as rubbish??

mofro
**** fixed and bring on the slack!

Martijn

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2007, 02:13:07 pm »
Just like using a wide axle it ain't cheating. A different prop opens up new possibilities to explore.
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Pete

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2007, 02:16:23 pm »
I new that someone would start a thread about this, as soon as i mentioned it, and i regretted it. I don't like bearing diabolos. I can see they have great value in vertax because in vertax sometimes it is just too hard to keep spin up when trying longer combos. But in regular diabolo i think its unneccessary. If i put anyone down about using a bearing im sorry, its up to you what diabolo you use, and what style your gonna play. I am suitably impressed with all that weird slacky knotty stuff, coz i can't do it at all, and i have no idea how you do most of it. That impresses me. But i don't want to learn it, because i don't particularly enjoy doing it.
I do think to some extent that using a bearing is cheating. And come on, i think most people can accept that it is sort of. But theres nothing wrong with it, if people want to use bearings, fine, i just don't like them.

And, they make a really annoying noise  :P
The tallest trees from acorns grow.

LaNgErZ

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2007, 02:30:44 pm »
now i have a very similar style to langerz
first of all get over yourself, you do not have a similar style to me. and dont talk about the yoyo scene when you know nothing about it

what mofro is trying to get at poorly, is the fact that everyone said this 15 years ago about changing from fixed axle yoyos to bearing yoyos (ahem look what happened)
this is merely an arguement about progresion of styles, i found everyone didn't like bearing but frankly i dont really care. eventually people will grow to realise this is the way
the prop is going (for 1d at least) different diabs for different styles, this is NOT a hard concept to grasp and i hate to say but you lot (d.ca at crawley) were probably the most narrow minded group
of diaboloists i've met in such a confined space (not you marc BMC legend)

lz

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Nick

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2007, 03:49:48 pm »
The idea of "cheating" seems a bit strange to me. At the end of the day we're playing with a toy, not taking a maths exam. There isn't a set of rules that could be broken. Just use which ever diabolo works best for you.
Playing diabolo should be about having fun, not worrying about what props people are using or what others think of what you're doing.

Diabolo for yourself.
Nick.
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Pete

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2007, 05:25:43 pm »
Quote from: Nick
Playing diabolo should be about having fun, not worrying about what props people are using or what others think of what you're doing

Exactly, now why did this thread appear?
The tallest trees from acorns grow.

Ben.

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2007, 05:48:24 pm »
lock it!


Alex!

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2007, 05:51:20 pm »
At the end of the day we're playing with a toy
Its not a toy. Saying that really makes it seem childish. Its a juggling prop. There aren't many 5000 year old toys.
STOP! HAMMER 'TIJN

Rob_

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2007, 06:42:51 pm »
There aren't many 5000 year old toys.

spinning top anyone?  ;)  :D

karl e dangerous

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2007, 08:43:01 pm »
i dont care as they say diabolo is not an exam its fun for gods sake enjoy it well you dont have arthuritus and the only thin i dont like with bearing diabs is the noise
sorry for my bad grammer

nev

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2007, 08:58:51 pm »
People who concider bearing as "Cheating" have generally spent very little time actually playing with them.  In fact if they did, they would soon realize that bearings actually make a lot of stuff MUCH harder than regular axles (especially with 2d but equally with some 1d tricks) - but make other things possible that you would never even think to try with regular axles.  Needless to say, I don't see bearings as cheating at all - they just require a different outlook / technique / style to get the best from them.

Nev
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Pete

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2007, 11:37:29 pm »
OK. First off, when i first mentioned my dislike to bearings at Crawley i felt very much on my own, it seemed that most other people were pro bearing, but they didn't use them all the time. So I kinda assumed that this thread was directed slightly towards me in the anti-bearing front. (thats just what i thought, i might be wrong)
I'll admit i haven't used bearings enough to realise their full potential in exploring new possibilities in diabolo, and i may well realise that yet. I can see how they can open doors to new ideas for some people, but I'm quite satisfied with the possibilities of regular diabolo. So its not for me. I have used them long enough to know that i don't like the way they feel, the way they play, the noise they make, and a number of other things. Thats my opinion, I'm entitled to that. In the short time i have used them, I've realised that it does make a good deal of things much harder, and completely restricts some things. For that reason, i don't think they'll ever take over completely.
As for whether its cheating or not, why does it really matter anyway. And i think cheating is a bad word for it. It is adding to a diabolo to make it spin for longer. It has its advantages, it has its disadvantages. Whether or not this makes the diabolo better or worse is up to each individual and need not really be discussed or argued about.
And I'd like to apologise to anyone i annoyed or offended at Crawley with my constant quips about bearings, i realise that must have been quite aggravating for some people. Sorry guys.
The tallest trees from acorns grow.

GbH

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2007, 12:42:28 am »
spinning top anyone?  ;)  :D

Hmm, funny you should mention tops...

An earlier post compared the bearing-diabolo situation with the introduction of bearing yo-yos, some years back.  Although there are obviously some similarities between the two situations, there are many differences too and I think it's a big mistake to assume that bearing diabolos will ever render the traditional models as redundant, which is largely what's happened with yo-yos.

I think a better comparison is to look at the spin-top players, who seem to treat fixed-tip and bearing-tip tops in equal regard, using whichever version is best suited to the particular trick or play-style that they're doing at the time.

Chiok

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2007, 12:57:45 am »
... and i hate to say but you lot (d.ca at crawley) were probably the most narrow minded group
of diaboloists i've met in such a confined space (not you marc BMC legend)
Well that's a little harsh, but I respect people's opinions.  By all means on another occasion, I'd love to have a sit down and chat about things other than diabolo.  After all, there is more to life than diabolo (isn't there?)  I personally don't have an opinion on the subject, I'm not a huge fan of the bearings I used at Crawley but some do.  I found myself in a vast minority of diaboloists using Henrys Circuses! (apart from Mark, Susannah and 2 Cups).

@ Pete, if you don't like bearings, that is fine, stand by your opinion.  As long as you don't hunt the whirring sound down with a pair of scissors.  Opinions are good to have.

And vertax is rubbish, unless you prance and mince around whilst practicing.

Chiok
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Squiggle

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2007, 08:41:40 am »

And vertax is rubbish, unless you prance and mince around whilst practicing.

Chiok

How so? :S

You can do vertax without "Prancing and mincing around."

William

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2007, 08:56:26 am »
I agree with Martijn. Unless you think wide axles are also cheating then really this is a load of rubbish
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

mofro

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2007, 10:50:49 am »
So I kinda assumed that this thread was directed slightly towards me in the anti-bearing front. (thats just what i thought, i might be wrong)

seriously this wasnt a dig at you at all i really respect your opinions and skills it was more of a discussion starter, (and it wasnt just you who was against baring diabolos at crawley anyhow)  ;D

mofro
**** fixed and bring on the slack!

stupendous

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2007, 08:07:03 pm »
Wow, where do I begin?  First of all, I think that this has been an excellent discussion, and I am very glad it is out in the open.  I am also, very pleased about what I have read.

now i have a very similar style to langerz (as he has been a BIG influence on me) mofro
I love Langley's style too!  he takes the diabolo where only a bearing diabolo can go!

Just like using a wide axle it ain't cheating. A different prop opens up new possibilities to explore.
Beautifully said!

The idea of "cheating" seems a bit strange to me. At the end of the day we're playing with a toy, not taking a maths exam. There isn't a set of rules that could be broken. Just use which ever diabolo works best for you.
Playing diabolo should be about having fun, not worrying about what props people are using or what others think of what you're doing.

Diabolo for yourself.
Nick.
WORD!!

For that reason, i don't think they'll ever take over completely.
Pete, we have never met, but I can tell you are a thoughtful guy.  I respect your opinion, and I also respect your apology.  It seems that there is a fear that bearing diabolos will take over the traditional diabolo scene. I just don't see that happening.  Like you said, bearings make some tricks easier and some tricks harder.  I use a bearing diabolo because I like it, just as much as you like your fixed axle.

Hmm, funny you should mention tops...

An earlier post compared the bearing-diabolo situation with the introduction of bearing yo-yos, some years back.  Although there are obviously some similarities between the two situations, there are many differences too and I think it's a big mistake to assume that bearing diabolos will ever render the traditional models as redundant, which is largely what's happened with yo-yos.

I think a better comparison is to look at the spin-top players, who seem to treat fixed-tip and bearing-tip tops in equal regard, using whichever version is best suited to the particular trick or play-style that they're doing at the time.
100% agree!

As long as you don't hunt the whirring sound down with a pair of scissors.  Opinions are good to have.
That made me laugh... :)


So what I hope is that we can all agree that a diabolo, with or without a bearing, is a skill toy/juggling prop, and that we all use different diabolos to achieve the same goals... to enjoy ourselves, better our skills, and be part of the diabolo community.


This is a great discussion!

peace!
stu
Spintatsics Diabolo Team

Diabolo88

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2007, 12:41:29 pm »
I don´t see how it´s cheating to use bearings at all (in fact, I find them more difficult to use, maybe cause I´m not used to bearings). However, bearings suck when you´re doing whip-ducides and stuff like that because the sticks wont get a good spread and rotation. For 3D it´s awesome fun though. You can just practice armstallcombos infinitely without having to go out of them to reaccelrate. Personally, I like to practice with them for fun sometimes but I wouldn´t use them as standard. Still, everyone has their preferences. I imagine people who do yoyo as well has better understanding of the potential of bearings?

Where is that video btw by that guy in the PEH cup doing bearingstuff with 2D? Look at that video and you´ll see some awesome potential for exploring.

Agreeing with what´s already been said, different diabolos open up for different tricks, and so does bering/non-bearing ones. It´s a matter of personal taste. If someone could come up with a bearingdiab that acted like a fixed, I think I´d like that.

Martijn

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2007, 01:12:29 pm »
If someone could come up with a bearingdiab that acted like a fixed, I think I´d like that.

That's impossible.
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seán_

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2007, 02:00:54 pm »
That's impossible.
Is it? What kind of 'prove Langerz right about D.ca attitude' is that? :P

I have a fly and it's the nicest bearing diabolo I have used but still not sure if i'd like to move over to them full time. I suppose I should have both and move between them.*
I don't consider them cheating but then again I'm not going to stop winding up anybody who's willing to fall for believing it matters either way :P

Sean_
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nev

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2007, 02:13:28 pm »
That's impossible.

It is possible to modify the Fly to "somewhere in between mode" with the addition of small nylon washers and the correct torque on the nuts (damn I spend to much time experimenting with my props) - This gives some friction so the bearing works only if the resistance is strong enough.  They didn't play that well though so I ditched the idea.  Others may like the feel

& sean_ your money now belongs to the bank   :'(
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Diabolo88

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2007, 03:11:15 pm »
Yeah I also figured it wasn´t really possible :P. It would be nice if it was though. Probably better to just switch while playing.

LaNgErZ

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2007, 09:09:47 pm »
i am just going to clarify at this point that i do not by any means think that bearing is better! i think you should be open to everything. thats my arguement, being rude about either side of an arguement that shouldn't have any sides in the first place is pointless.

lz
www.MightAsWellCommit.com - Diabolo Awesomeness.

nev

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2007, 12:15:47 am »
i am just going to clarify at this point that i do not by any means think that bearing is better! i think you should be open to everything. thats my arguement, being rude about either side of an arguement that shouldn't have any sides in the first place is pointless.

lz

Just as  :-*
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randomlegend

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2007, 10:01:09 pm »
first of all get over yourself, you do not have a similar style to me. and dont talk about the yoyo scene when you know nothing about it

what mofro is trying to get at poorly, is the fact that everyone said this 15 years ago about changing from fixed axle yoyos to bearing yoyos (ahem look what happened)
this is merely an arguement about progresion of styles, i found everyone didn't like bearing but frankly i dont really care. eventually people will grow to realise this is the way
the prop is going (for 1d at least) different diabs for different styles, this is NOT a hard concept to grasp and i hate to say but you lot (d.ca at crawley) were probably the most narrow minded group
of diaboloists i've met in such a confined space (not you marc BMC legend)

lz

think josh think!
Is that post serious? Bit harsh if so.

Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2007, 03:23:38 am »
Bearing, Non Bearing?
Its a prop for ****'s sake.
Its perfectly legal in all competitions and opens up a whole new world of spin and tricks, while making some harder or impossible.
If you think its so good, its just about the same price as a finesse, go get it! 8)

aaro

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2007, 03:36:01 pm »
Well, no one can make you not to use bearing, that's for sure. Being sensitive about other persons opinions about bearing can be diagnosed as uncertainty of your own habits.

There's been a development in aerial acrobatics that has changed the way one constructs an aerial number. At least Cirque du Soleil is using machines to get the acrobats up high in the air, without them having to climb up for themselves. Still i find it somehow more respectable when i see someone doing a aerial acrobatic number without these machines(and the sound they might make ;) ).

Some diabolists think its bad if you take speed during performance. Eric and Antonin have said that taking speed on stage is boring. I have never heard anyone outside diabolo community to complain about taking speed, i was once filmed for a children's tv-program and they actually cut away all the tricks and left only the parts where i take speed(witch made me quite angry). This opens a possibility that maybe only diabolists find taking speed boring. For me, it's a good way of having a pause during a performance and maybe interact with audience, or at least letting them to applaud :). Also i think there is many interesting ways of taking speed.

This rabble about taking speed somehow in my mind connected to bearings, maybe the key line is that i don't find any need for them, as i don't find any need for wider axles, witch i think make the controlling of the diabolo harder.

Maybe it's bit puritanic of me but i like the idea that i can do a whole show without having to change sticks or diabolos in middle of the number. For me, it's like if a magician would change a card deck for every other trick.

Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2007, 01:09:22 pm »
Is vertax rubbish? It was easier for me to learn then 2d, and ive progressed with vertax much faster then i have with 2d (Mostly because i suck at the shuffle, so i do anti-shuffle)

nicodemus

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2007, 12:34:15 am »
Some diabolists think its bad if you take speed during performance. Eric and Antonin have said that taking speed on stage is boring. I have never heard anyone outside diabolo community to complain about taking speed, i was once filmed for a children's tv-program and they actually cut away all the tricks and left only the parts where i take speed(witch made me quite angry). This opens a possibility that maybe only diabolists find taking speed boring. For me, it's a good way of having a pause during a performance and maybe interact with audience, or at least letting them to applaud :). Also i think there is many interesting ways of taking speed.

This rabble about taking speed somehow in my mind connected to bearings, maybe the key line is that i don't find any need for them, as i don't find any need for wider axles, witch i think make the controlling of the diabolo harder.

It took me a while to realise you weren't talking about doing meth.

Shaun

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2007, 01:59:59 am »
It took me a while to realise you weren't talking about doing meth.
:D thats funny as. So Antonin and Eric have taken speed during a performance?  :o :D what a role model (joking).
btw, bearings aren't cheating! taking steroids and speed is cheating :P
I found that i takes a little bit of skill to adapt to a bearing diabolo, doing certain tricks is more difficult.

Nahxela

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2007, 04:31:18 am »
It took me a while to realise you weren't talking about doing meth.
Same with me -_-'
Give a man fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life

garner

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2007, 10:46:10 am »
well aaro's post was the best statement i've ever heard on bearing axles. ever.

William

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2007, 08:23:13 am »
LOL speed..
Bearings are a modification, just like wide axles. Not cheating.
Now STFU.  :D
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

karl e dangerous

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2007, 08:14:30 pm »
It took me a while to realise you weren't talking about doing meth.
thats true its also very funny
sorry for my bad grammer

-Leo-

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2007, 08:17:49 pm »
Bearings aren't cheating. This was reinforced today from the humming sound whenever Nev did a fan. The 2D hover things that are possible with bearings are also very interesting.
Behind your back is your front.

Ben

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2007, 08:14:33 am »
bearing diabolos are a great invention use them if you like them dont use them if you dont like them, but in my opinion they make many things possible that was before impossible or at least impractical

aaro's post was the best thing i have read on this forum for quite a while
great stuff

ben

Matt_

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2007, 11:36:55 pm »
Now this raises ANOTHER question...is diabolo on meth cheating? Or not??

Also, I agree with Ben on this matter. Although, I do get a kick out of people getting all bent out of shape getting angry at bearing diabolos...now that is ridiculous  ::)

Jester

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2007, 06:09:07 am »
I also find it funny how much people are getting worked up about this diabolo schism.

I am very happy with our community that people haven't (yet) started flaming each other
a sign of emotional health for our subsection of the juggling community

I haven't played with bearings for more than a few minutes
and like the idea of them

but when i see a hard trick done with bearing diabolo
like will from tasmania doing excalibur S-fan
i want to see it done with fixed bearings because that is where my standards are set

bearings are a shortcut
cheating is definetly the wrong word

shortcuts arn't for everyone

do what you want and lets keep showing each other the different bounderys we are pushing
do it, do it ,do it, DO IT!

Shaun

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2007, 07:52:18 am »
bearings are a shortcut
cheating is definetly the wrong word
I think it's a short cut for learning some tricks (a way of learnng the trick quicker), but the long/hard way for others.

LaNgErZ

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2007, 12:18:42 pm »
shortcut??? thats an idiotic statement.

lz
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looby

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2007, 12:25:26 pm »
this thread could just be the definition of flogging a dead horse
Rennes July 10-17th 2011!

Duncan

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2007, 12:40:54 pm »
A different prop opens up new possibilities to explore.

IE - not a shortcut, but a whole different direction. Go watch what Nev does with bearings... is that a shortcut or an exploration?

-Duncan (gettin' philosophical)

Martijn

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2007, 01:46:53 pm »
Yes, why couldn't we let this dead horse to rest after my statement? :P
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William

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Re: bearing diabolo is it cheating??
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2007, 07:29:59 am »
like will from tasmania doing excalibur S-fan
i want to see it done with fixed bearings because that is where my standards are set

It a regular fan, not S-fan. I guess that makes you want to see it with fixed more?
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro