Author Topic: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)  (Read 197513 times)

Elmeri

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2004, 04:16:59 pm »
www.kolumbus.fi/diabolo/ss3s1.wmv

 Thats my "new" vid where you can see something about my asynch 3d suffle, or nothing may be the rigth word...

 And in the end is little suicide of mine, I begin to create it few days ago, it´s going to be better. And those 3d beginnings are crappy, but I didn´t have enough batteries...
I´m gonna put better in internet some day...

Sean

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2004, 04:46:35 pm »
Wow, Elmeri: your first video link crashed Firefox... no small feat! Congrats! ;)

I see your dog (that is a dog, right?) has learned that practicing 3 diabolos is not a fun thing to be around! :P I used to live with a cat who would have agreed.

A few things after looking at your video:

I think it might be helpful to develop a routine in terms of when you let go of the diabolo and when you unwrap. You will then learn the timing and not have to adjust each time. Your first start looks like reasonable timing between the hand spin and the unwrap, in the second clip you try and spin the diabolo right before you have to unwrap. You manage to start at about the right time but you have to rush your right hand motion and as a result the diabolo doesn't make it across the string enough.

In your first clip, the diabolo on your left pops off the left of the string as opposed to coming back over to the right. Your left hand motion needs to direct this diabolo back across. In that clip, your left hand moves to the left and directs the diabolo off the string. I think you need to raise this hand in a direction more straight up. With the diabolo going off to the left (or even straight up) you don't have a hope of keeping the pattern going.

Stick with it and feel free to send in more videos as you progress!

Oh... and in exchange for this advice, you must agree to send in your new suicide trick for a video/trick of the week. Got it? :P

Sean

Elmeri

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2004, 06:39:34 pm »
Ok... Thanks. :D

 But First I have to finish the suicide.
 I´m planning to put there a minigenocide-style ending if I manage.
I think that it´s too easy for trick of week... With out that minigenocide-stylish ending. :oops:

Jussi

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2004, 09:19:26 am »
is that really neccessary to beginners start 3d with that wrap thing?

i practicing 3d with throwing 3rd in, and.. i havent made much progress, but still i sometimes can do quite many rounds.. (usually its low 424242..
as i said somewhere, but its still better than nothing?)

i have tried wrap start few times, but in my fashion its seems more difficult way..

i dont have videocam (at this time at least), so its up to your imagination :)

Elmeri

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2004, 06:14:47 pm »
Ok...
I got third finesse and I´ve tried to work with my 3d suffle...
 Here is new vid... http://www.kolumbus.fi/diabolo/3d.wmv It´s taken from first shot but I think it´s one of the best I´ve done today...

EDIT: Ok... I looked at it frame by frame and I saw that I used only 2 times my left hand... First whole triangle allmost collapsed, then I got I back but I made too fast movement and yellow collied with green...

Sean

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2004, 10:17:43 pm »
Yeap, Elmeri. I think you know what you're not doing right now. Not only is your left hand not making the pattern larger, it is moving off to your left and making the pattern even smaller. Even later, your left hand barely moves. I think it helps to exagerate this at first. It's probably much bigger than you think.

If you are trying to learn an asynch pattern I found it helpful to aim to launch these diabolos off the left side of the string about half a meter above my head or even higher. Once you get the pattern very large and slow it will be easy to bring it down lower.

A second point: you are spinning your wrapped diabolo very hard and wildly. You barely even need to spin it. It is true that once you are working on doing a shuffle for a long time that it will help to have more speed on that diabolo but at this point it is far easier to get a good start with that diabolo spinning slower. Also, maybe you want to time it so that you aren't as rushed to spin it quickly and get your hand back on the sticks to unwrap. I wrote a bit about not spinning the wrapped diabolo too much here since Ryo Yabe mentioned it in his WJF workshop.

Stick with it and you will get it.

Sean

Tahia

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2005, 11:07:23 am »
:D well i've done a few second of 3 low asynchrone shuffle (for information i can stand 1 min in synchrone shuffle :)) and during this few second (2 or 3 perhaps 5 sec..) i 've found it too pretty...  :oops: but it's realy hard for me ... when you're used to be a synchroner... becoming a  assynchroner...is not easy!! cause it's physchological..... and now i've seen it!! i'm sure i'll get that ;)

Tahia

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2005, 12:57:17 pm »
well i've made my 2 first sun 3d yesterday and after yesterday :) i'm synchrone :) and with the help of the yabe's tricks :) it become realy not too hard :)!!

Matt_H

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2005, 03:08:59 pm »
Hmmm, i too can't seem to get the wrap start, when i try and wrap the 3rd one in one of the other two just drops off the string, i'll keep trying it though. I am mainly working on a throw start into 3 low as i'm old school acording to Sean_, i've had a bit of success and it seems that i naturally want to do an asynch shuffle with this method as when i throw the 3rd one in i pop one of the other two high just before it lands in the pattern.

Has anyone else really got a throw start to work (other than Guy? )

Dr Matt_h

Sean

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2005, 03:40:51 pm »
Quote from: Matt_H
when i try and wrap the 3rd one in one of the other two just drops off the string

That's a matter of lining up all the string, sticks, and diabolos, nothing more. Just find a way to wrap the diabolo that doesn't move the string forward or backward. Have a look at some videos of others doing this and experiment. Also play around with when in the shuffle you start wrapping.
Quote from: Matt_H
Has anyone else really got a throw start to work (other than Guy? )

I think most people who are capable of doing the 3 low siteswap 42 are capable of doing a throw start with 2 on the string because the motion is the same. So... that would include a lot of people nowadays.

The problem with the throw start is the lack of speed on the thrown diabolo. Especially if you are going to do an asynch pattern, the initial speed of that 3rd diabolo is important (unless you are a master at backwrapping 3 diabolos).

There is also the alternative of putting one diabolo in a stopover, holding both sticks in one hand, and throwing the 3rd diabolo (as discovered by Baptiste). He demonstrates it in the educational part of Diabology.

The real hordcore throw start is the 1 diabolo in the string 2 diabolo throw start that every Japanese kid on this planet seems to be able to do.  :roll:

Sean

Matt_H

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2005, 04:35:58 pm »
The speed of the diabolo thrown in really dons't seem to be an issue as i can throw in with a fair amount of speed (alomost as starting with a backwrap) the whole problem i think is my right hand dropping too low and the diabolo's missing the string, either going to far to low to the right or out of line.

Thanks for the advice, i guess its just more practice :)


Dr Matt_H

GbH

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2005, 12:24:20 am »
Quote from: Sean


The problem with the throw start is the lack of speed on the thrown diabolo.



Hello all.  I thought I might actually join in...

As many of you are probably aware, I've been using Renegades for the 3 shuffle since I first started to get it working (back in 1993!!!).  Thus, the speed issue was never important to me, as Renegades don't need to spin a whole lot anyway.  Any time I tried to use other makes, however, I had a whole lot of trouble, largely due to spin issues (I just wasn't used to having to spin the things at speed - in fact, it never occured to me that I should even be trying to do so).  Unfortunately though, as the Renegades are too noisy/destructive for me to use in my house, it's many years since  I've given it any regular or serious practice.   Thus my lack of any real progress...

Anyway, towards the end of last year I thought I might give the long-axle (but unweighted) Finesse diabolos a bit of a try.  Sadly, although I occassionally got the 3low pattern started with them, it never looked like getting even remotely consistent.  Also, it turns out that having to re-learn a trick, just because you're using different props, isn't much fun!  On the plus side,  though, it did mean I started to learn a bit more about using wrapped acceleration.

However, last week I made a bit of a discovery.  After briefly borrowing John's (er, Mr Gerkin...) set of 3 Circus diabolos at our juggling club, I realised that my thrown start now worked perfectly well with them  - something I'd rarely ever managed to do in the past.   It would seem that my efforts with the Finesse diabolos had gotten me used to getting the things spinning faster and that this is what I'd been previously missing.  

So, back to the point of all this.  Yes, I can confirm that the low rotational speed of the hand thrown diabolo doesn't seem to matter to any significant degree.  If the movement of the other two is clean and under control, the thrown diabolo will get up to speed once it's in the pattern.  As I don't particularly understand the whole sync/asynch thing, though, I can't really comment on any differences that aspect might bring, though.

Anyway, hope this is of some interest to you.

Guy

seán_

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2005, 02:37:25 am »
Hi Guy.

When you use Finesse or Circus do you find yourself changing anything in your set up or does the same shuffle size etc. stay the same as the one you have used for years?


On a slightly GbH related point, I had my first Orbitors from wrap start attempts today, I don't know weather this is a negative step or not as I have felt my best attempts before have felt closer to what three will be like (yet not close enough! ;) )

Seán

Sean

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2005, 03:42:51 am »
Nice to hear from you, Guy. This is an interesting discussion.

With a synch pattern (as I believe yours is, Guy), the diabolos will speed up over time and as you said, the initial speed won't make much of a difference.

Finding a motion that does much more than keep the diabolos at their same speed with an asynch pattern is hard. However, slow diabolos aren't that much of a problem if you can deal with corrections well. (Baptiste pointed this out somewhere up there in this thread). Thankfully, the asynch pattern seems to lend itself to backwrap accelerations because of its large and (relatively) slow nature.

Finesses with wide axles are relatively unstable - especially compared to Henrys. Have you tried the finesses for a while with the normal axles? They become even lighter and still aren't as stable as Henrys but they are better.

Sean

Tahia

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2005, 09:17:27 am »
well for me the best start is mine (FOR ME!! :) )!!! cause there is no problém with the speed my shuffle realy looks like the shuffle of Yabe or tony now!!and i can swicht (momentanely..) in assynchrone shuffle... and i reswich in synchrone shufle (more easy for me ;) ) so i think that everybody have to find his start: wrap or throw or passing or other insane start :D!! i've tried a lot of different start that's why i find my start try all the start you find !! i hope film my shuffle 3d soon cause i like it!! and i've make my third 3d sun so 3sun in 3 day with a ratio of 1/10 trying per day :) so i'll film my sun 3d!!

for the backwrapping it is hard for the moment but i've make one succefully and in synchone style !! so it's realy different that the assynchrone style! i've make a 42 (realy hard for the moment for me...)
so her is my progress in 3d in 2 months :)

staticjuggler

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2005, 09:00:40 pm »
Hi guys,

My problem for learning 3 diabolos is the initial start of it. I have been trying the wrap start, but as soon as I unwrap, the 3rd diabolo just crashes into the other 2 shuffling diabolos.

So I am pretty much looking at how to transition from two in one hand with a wrap to the 3 diabolo shuffle (async by the way).

Thanks if anyone can help

Static

www.staticjuggler.com
www.staticjuggler.com

How mad would a wood chuck get if a big neon pink Koala bear named Ishtar ran into the woods and chucked all the wood before the woodchuck could chuck the wood?

seán_

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2005, 09:38:05 pm »
Hi Static there are a few posts in the tricks sticky that might help plus this thread and video
http://www.jongle.net/forum/index.php?topic=8986

I am kind of going through this at the moment too.

GbH

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2005, 12:27:46 am »
Quote from: seán_

When you use Finesse or Circus do you find yourself changing anything in your set up or does the same shuffle size etc. stay the same as the one you have used for years?  


I don't think there's anything substantially different, no.  At least, not with the Circus diabolos.  There again, as most of my actions seem to happen through instinct rather than proper thought, it's quite likely that there are some subtle differences that I'm not noticing.

Quote from: seán_

On a slightly GbH related point, I had my first Orbitors from wrap start attempts today, I don't know weather this is a negative step or not as I have felt my best attempts before have felt closer to what three will be like (yet not close enough! ;) )


Accidently getting Orbitors to happen seems to be a natural part of learning 3.  You'll get over it soon enough :0).  Has anyone learned to do Orbitors on demand, by moving from and back into the shuffle?  

Guy

staticjuggler

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2005, 07:42:03 pm »
Ok, so I finally got the wrap start down. My best is 4 over the tops. I can't seem to continue usually after the start, usually to missing diabolos and having them land on the floor instead of the string :oops:

Anyone have advice to get over this?

Thanks!

Static

www.staticjuggler.com
www.staticjuggler.com

How mad would a wood chuck get if a big neon pink Koala bear named Ishtar ran into the woods and chucked all the wood before the woodchuck could chuck the wood?

Matt_H

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Re: 3 diabolo shuffle: help! (wrap start & asynch shuffle)
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2005, 10:16:59 am »
Hi all,
 I think i've pretty much got the throw start sorted after trying constantly for days and i too have the problem of more often than not the pattern fails as one of the diabolo's misses the string on my right. I think it maybe due to the flick i'm giving the diabolo on the left to keep the pattern fairly big so i guess more practice is in order  :D . just to let you know my record is now 14 diabolo's over the top but its definatly feeling like its getting there !!!

Dr Matt_H