Author Topic: Correct Form/Technique?  (Read 2758 times)

-Leo-

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 15
Correct Form/Technique?
« on: January 20, 2008, 09:58:38 am »
If there has been a topic on this before I apologize -I couldn't find it

Yesterday I was in the park and found a couple of kids who were fairly new to diabolo and were trying out infinite suicides for the first time. I offered a few pointers and showed them a couple of ways of making the trick a bit easier.

I did a couple just to show some of them how I'd do the trick and one of them asked "Is it correct form to have your hand in your pocket?" I just said to do them however you like, but slower and smoother works better for infinite suicides.

This got me thinking though: Is there a correct form for doing a trick -eg feet shoulder width apart etc, or is it just a matter of personal preference and style?

Correct 'form' is taught and practiced in a lot of different things (juggling and practically every sport)but it never seems to get a mention with diaboloists. I'm not a fan of the idea because it takes away from individual style but I was wondering what other people think about it?

-Leo


EDIT: I meant to say it's not good when everyone is diaboloing the same way, like robots. I do support people being taught to do a trick smoothly without it looking forced however.
Behind your back is your front.

Beni

  • Guest
Re: Correct Form/Technique?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2008, 10:03:48 am »
...No?
You can hope around on one foot in a chicken suit and it won't change how good you are.

spinnin pig

  • Thanks: 0
Re: Correct Form/Technique?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2008, 10:54:49 am »
lol it would make you look stupid though
anyway
i think that it doesnt really matter how you stand or things like that
its more how you link tricks together e.g genocide into infinite suicides with magic knot exit (bet you cant guess what i just learnt :D)
tricks im happy with
2d stuff
grinds
sticktrap
sticktrap double release
sprinkler/sprinkler suicide

tommi

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 4
Re: Correct Form/Technique?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2008, 06:25:18 pm »
Well I'd say, form really does matter. Least at if you care at all how you look, and if you see diabolo as a performing art, I think you really should. This doesn't that there is always the right form to do some trick, it can be only issue of style.

But often better form leads to greater control. One example of this was when some one noted me that when I lower three high, I should rise my left hand higher, instead of having my whole body bent like a banana. I believe that the best form is the one where you can do the trick relaxed as possible. :)

Duncan

  • Administrator
  • Thanks: 89
Re: Correct Form/Technique?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2008, 07:03:38 pm »
To an extent where some tricks require proper form or you will hurt/injure yourself, then yes, there is a distinct form that needs to be used. The repetitive strain that 3 low causes some people is an example of this.

I would like to substitute the word form for 'mechanics', or the motions of the trick that are absolutely essential to the trick's success. I'll discuss 'style' as I go along.

I think some of the previous posts (outside of Tommi, whom I agree with) have glossed over the mechanical aspects of a trick with the actual performing/style of the trick. When learning an infinite suicide, you have to learn a specific motion, or mechanic, before you can go on to create your stylistic interpretation. After you've achieve proper mechanics, I'd say you're quite free to start experimenting with how to do the trick. Thus, I agree on the point that there is no proper way the trick 'should look'.

But, for example, when learning to shoot a basketball, you have to learn how to use all of you body (a couple of excerpts on shooting form: arms and hands underneath the ball; ball on your fingertips for control; legs bent and shoulder width apart to maximize power in the motion; arm extending up and wrist flicking to ensure proper spin on the ball, etc) before you can start playing with what style works for you. If you don't learn these mechanics, you will continue to perform the shot badly.

If you're learning an infinite suicide, you have to learn the proper mechanics or the trick will never improve. You certainly can't be doing the trick in a way that causes the diabolo to tilt and fall off all the time or you will never achieve positive development.

While this discussion has gotten off to a slow start in the early run, I believe this is actually quite an important topic for those who would like to teach diabolo in the future. Most of us who do teach know this through common sense (you don't teach bad habits, etc), but some might struggle with trying to teach someone how to do some rudimentary tricks because they're working on style rather than mechanics.

Sports teach fundamental skills and mechanics in order to achieve the most success and development. This seems like an elementary concept that is being glossed over at the moment. However, once you have mastered those skills, it's obvious that you will start to develop habits due to your style preferences. If your habits are bad, you'll not be having a very enjoyable run of juggling.

-Duncan

pippy

  • Thanks: 0
Re: Correct Form/Technique?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2008, 07:35:24 pm »
I have found that when it comes to teaching diabolo to others, the whole idea of form or mechanics is essential before the person can maintain control of the diabolo.

I have two main rules with anyone new to diabolo that I teach:

1. Your body and the closest cup to you on the diabolo, should ALWAYS be parallel
2. Do not move the non dominant hand unless you need to

I learnt both of these by myself and noticed that normally when people start diaboloing, their body never moves when the diabolo does.  Therefore causing the string to rub on the cup, resulting in tilt and then loss of all control.
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol.

Beni

  • Guest
Re: Correct Form/Technique?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2008, 09:38:18 pm »
Since we're on the subject of style, I'd like to add that a lot of advice given on this site goes along the lines of "work on your style". Now, I don't know if it's the same for everyone, but I've always assumed that style is something you do without much thinking involved. The whole point is that it is personal to you and it is pre-programmed in your brain anyway. Sure, you develop style, but you shouldn't force it.
Now, all this 'mechanics' business would be fine if everyone's personal style was the same. The thing is; that's not true. For example, some people may do a trapeze by throwing the diabolo over the stick with the other hand, and catch the diabolo... but some may do the whole motion with a swift overcut of the handstick. When you teach someone a trapeze, you can explain both the concept and the mechanics, but in the end they will do what feels easiest to them.
On these grounds, I determine that teaching form isn't necessary, and can even hinder the 'student'.

Beni





pippy

  • Thanks: 0
Re: Correct Form/Technique?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2008, 10:02:21 pm »
But to start someone off, you need to give them advice.  It is only when they start to control the diabolo and give it some spin that their style starts to shine.  The same as how you can advise people on how to do tricks e.g. in my thread about slack whips, I am told to whip very fast whilst another person says you can try doing it slow or fast, it depends on you.
Quote
I determine that teaching form isn't necessary, and can even hinder the 'student'
I totally agree that the teaching of diabolo does not need to be formed, thats why there isnt any 'stars' or 'grades' like in more conventional sports/skills e.g. kayaking, surfing or swimming.   Alas small tips are what makes the world go round so the whole concept of mechanics is very useful as once the 'student' has tried your method or the 'mechanic' method, they may bugger off and do their own thing.  For instance, I teach balancing with your dominant hand whilst my friend prefers to balance with his non dominant hand now
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol.

Eric Moffett

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 10
Re: Correct Form/Technique?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2008, 10:40:26 pm »
...Now, all this 'mechanics' business would be fine if everyone's personal style was the same....

Beni

I disagree before you have style you have mechanics, your first fan didn't look as good or as unique to you as your fan now. You had to learn the mechanics of the trick before you get comfortable and your habits and tendencies add the style.
Diabolo Acquired - Thurday, 2/08/07
Vertax Skill Acquired - Thursday, 4/12/07
2 Diabolo Skill Acquired - Tuesday, 5/29/07
3 Diabolo Skill Acquired - Eh, No?

Marko

  • VotW Contributor
  • Thanks: 79
Re: Correct Form/Technique?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2008, 09:32:57 am »
Now this is a good topic. Tommi, I'm fully behind your words.
Also Duncan, good thinking. Before talking and thinking about style/form/technique everyone should define
themselves what kind of diabolo juggler are you? Why do you juggle?

If you're juggling for yourself and only for yourself, stop reading this. You should
do what ever makes you happy. Don't listen anything that makes you unhappy or to
feel bad. If somebody trys to correct your style by saying "don't put the diabolo to your
crotch, it looks bad" or anything like that. Why should you care? You're doing all to yourself,
not for anybody else. Not to please anybody but yourself. So stop reading this topic. ;)

If you are reading this, i believe you do care, at least a little. I believe that there's not only one
correct form, but many. There are also lots of bad forms. So look in the mirror, preferably while
doing the trick. If it looks really good, great. If doesn't fix it. The style important for every performing
artist. When i see a show, and everytime when i go "WOW! That was amazing!". Performer has had
a good style.

Beni, i don't think the same way as you do about the style. Yes, it can develop on it's own and it could
be awesome. But, most of jugglers are not that fortunate. So, i believe the style should be a conscious
choice. You should be aware how you look when juggling. I have discovered lately that the form that i
like to use, and the movement that i do when naturally, does NOT look best to audience. I've been watching
dance lately and i think i will have to get more physical. Also there might be a good way to present bad
form as well, but you have to be conscious about it.

I have gone too long about this again. But one more point for everyone. Read again Tommi's and Duncan's
first posts on this topic. They have good point's to give. Think.

-Marko
┬źDiabolo, whiter than the whitest!┬╗