Author Topic: 3D animation of tricks  (Read 7384 times)

MOONSHEILD

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3D animation of tricks
« on: June 04, 2008, 07:47:39 pm »
 Hey Ive been diabololing for a year on and off but Ive started again as the weather is nice and had enough cash to buy a hew one as i lost my old one. I was think about doing some 3D animations as teaching guides as i learn new tricks as well to show bits of tricks which you cant film easily was just wondering if people would find this helpfull. i am currently a student in computer art so i would like to do this as just something to show as part of a portfolio. Anyway thought id just test the water and see what people thought of my idea
!!!!!!!!!!!Will diabolo for food!!!!!!!!!!!

I bought a diabolo with the last of my cash.

Duncan

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2008, 08:15:18 pm »
Hey ive been diabololing for a year on and off but ive started again as the wather is nice and had enuff cash to buy a hew one as i lost my old one. I was think about doing some 3D animations as teaching guides as i learn new tricks aswell to show bits of tricks which you cant film easily was just wondering if people would find this helpfull. Iam currently a student in computer art so i would like to do this as just something to show as part of a portfolio. Anyway thought id just test the water and see wat people tought of my idea

First, welcome to the forum, Moonshield. One thing to keep in mind is making sure your posts are fairly legible as you can make them for those who don't speak English as a first language, so please use the spell check on your posts.

Second, who knows about animations in 3D - perhaps a 3D model of certain tricks would clarify for people how certain tricks work. I know there are certainly some tricks I have to resort to trial and error before I get them. Maybe the new generation of diabolo animations lay in 3D animations. I certainly wouldn't say don't do it because the public wouldn't want it - it would be a nice challenge, I'd say, to try and create a clean animation of some tricks. I'm sure others will drop their opinions as well.

-Duncan

(after some fiddling around and second-thought considering, I moved it here and gave it a new title)

-Leo-

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2008, 08:24:01 pm »
That sounds like a great idea, a lot of the time videos aren't high quality/slow enough to understand some of the really intricate tricks and the 2D gifs on diabolo tricks aren't suited to those either. I'd be really interested to see how it turns out.

You've got my backing,

-Leo
Behind your back is your front.

MOONSHEILD

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2008, 08:28:54 pm »
I just think it would be a good thing for more technical tricks as well as what is going on with the strings for people who are just starting but ill give it a bash Ive already modeled the sticks and diabolo since my first post need to create a person and then ill get to work on a trick tutorial.
!!!!!!!!!!!Will diabolo for food!!!!!!!!!!!

I bought a diabolo with the last of my cash.

JJesse

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2008, 08:40:04 pm »
TheDiabolo.com does already use 3D animations I think. But they're more like for beginners. Would be great to see anims of harder tricks. You have my backing too.

GbH

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2008, 10:49:44 pm »
Yep, I think that this could be the basis for a very interesting project.  At a very basic level, it would be easy to model and animate just a basic diabolo-sticks-string set-up, assuming that the string is taut at all times (i.e. just a spline).  Whilst I guess that just this could give some useful results, I think some of the other possibilities might throw up some interesting animations.  Quickly coming to mind would be:

- model the string using a physics engine.  Might be worth a go for some tricks, but you'd need to find a clever solution if you wanted to deal with knots.  Alternatively, I guess you could try simulating the whole thing with physics, but I reckon it would be hard to control the tricks and not end up with it dropping.  I tried doing something similar with a kendama model once - it worked, but took a bit of tedious fiddling before I got the ball to land in the cup.

- do you model the player?  It wouldn't always be necessary, but if so, do you model him/her as solid or semi-transparent?  The later might be a useful visualisation trick for some types of trick, giving you something that's not so easy with video.  Obviously, 3D human animation is a whole bunch of issues and possibilities in itself. 

- multiple camera views

- 'ghosting' of the diabolo trail might be helpful for combos.

- perhaps some clever way of displaying how the string is wrapped (no wrap, backside, full wrap...).  Maybe using a semi-transparent diabolo shell, or perhaps just using some sort of colour code or icon.

- Animating shuffles for multiple diabolo tricks might be a bit tedious.  If you use Houdini at all, maybe you could try doing something clever with the Channel feature to get around this.

- Maybe it would be cool to import the animations into a real-time engine - thus you'd potentially be able to offer the user various options for modifying how the trick is displayed and played back. 


I'm sure that there'd be lots of other possibilities too.  I look forward to seeing what you might come up with.


Guy

 

logoman04

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2008, 02:42:12 am »
DO IT!! Im not at 3D yet, but whe i get there im gunna need help.
You got my vote!

         ~|_0G/-\N
The entire world will die in the time of one day the reason being...o_O 3D O_o!!

MOONSHEILD

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2008, 03:58:07 am »
Yep, I think that this could be the basis for a very interesting project.  At a very basic level, it would be easy to model and animate just a basic diabolo-sticks-string set-up, assuming that the string is taut at all times (i.e. just a spline).  Whilst I guess that just this could give some useful results, I think some of the other possibilities might throw up some interesting animations.  Quickly coming to mind would be:

- model the string using a physics engine.  Might be worth a go for some tricks, but you'd need to find a clever solution if you wanted to deal with knots.  Alternatively, I guess you could try simulating the whole thing with physics, but I reckon it would be hard to control the tricks and not end up with it dropping.  I tried doing something similar with a kendama model once - it worked, but took a bit of tedious fiddling before I got the ball to land in the cup.

- do you model the player?  It wouldn't always be necessary, but if so, do you model him/her as solid or semi-transparent?  The later might be a useful visualisation trick for some types of trick, giving you something that's not so easy with video.  Obviously, 3D human animation is a whole bunch of issues and possibilities in itself. 

- multiple camera views

- 'ghosting' of the diabolo trail might be helpful for combos.

- perhaps some clever way of displaying how the string is wrapped (no wrap, backside, full wrap...).  Maybe using a semi-transparent diabolo shell, or perhaps just using some sort of colour code or icon.

- Animating shuffles for multiple diabolo tricks might be a bit tedious.  If you use Houdini at all, maybe you could try doing something clever with the Channel feature to get around this.

- Maybe it would be cool to import the animations into a real-time engine - thus you'd potentially be able to offer the user various options for modifying how the trick is displayed and played back. 


I'm sure that there'd be lots of other possibilities too.  I look forward to seeing what you might come up with.


Guy

 

Yeah alot of these things also came to mind for me aswell ive never used houndini i have experince with maya and iam learning xsi atm the problem with the knots had crosed my mind but if knots dont work well in the physics i can always go in and tweak the polygons tedeious but animation is just that. The real time engine would be possible but id first need to create enuff animations for it to work but there is alos the potential for me to turn this into a game while i am at uni at the least a website.

Well iam going to get a crack on with this as i got nothing to do all summer as iam currently looking for a job :D but GbH i gather you have some knolege on 3d. I have a freind who is learning from me at the momment who dose the same course so i might give him a shout and get him involved with this.
!!!!!!!!!!!Will diabolo for food!!!!!!!!!!!

I bought a diabolo with the last of my cash.

fzzyrn

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2008, 05:08:27 am »
you should do a 3d for langerz's trapdoor. It is quite possibly the most 3 dimensional trick i've ever seen (note that i avoid the term 3d)

MOONSHEILD

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2008, 05:28:23 am »
yeah iam getting slightly confused with it as well when i talk to my mate about it i think ill use the correct term for 3 dimensions which is 2.5D from as a 3D object has to be real and when only made to seem real is 2.5D :D just searched for that trick as well cant find it on this site but that might just be me being to tiered to see my mistake. if you can point me to the trick i.e video that be great
!!!!!!!!!!!Will diabolo for food!!!!!!!!!!!

I bought a diabolo with the last of my cash.

karatepekka

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2008, 08:55:14 am »
Here is the video http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=4444.0

And I think this is an awesome idea. I can't really use computers that well so no advice from me, but I can imagine the potential of this thing... Please do it!!

Hathaway

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2008, 09:03:26 am »
If you use 3ds max then you should just be able to do it with the Reactor engine, its pretty simple to use and you could just set the string to have 'rope' like properties, I'm sure you know all about it anyway... But that really cuts down on the bornig animating as some of it gets done for you! Im sure maya will have a physics engine similair.
I'm sure you have or will learn about bipods, but again in max these aren't too hard and would allow you to animate people pretty easily whilst attatching the sticks to the models hands, and whilst using reactor the string would react as it would in life.
Alex abuses flys!

MOONSHEILD

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2008, 09:14:58 am »
nope never used 3ds maxx dont know way we just dont use it at our uni our 3d teacher is a bit obssesed with it coz hes allmighty like that always going on about working for rocksar since the bigging. He hates us using other packages to do things which are mabye slighty harder to achieve in maya compared to other packages like zbrush but ill get a copy of 3ds max and give it a bash. ill get around to this but as i am moving flat soon i may not be able to get stuff up for a few weeks till we get the net sorted but ill try plus cash flow is mega low so iam needing to get a job asap. Ill hopefully have something done in the next week but once ive got a system set up and that i should be able to get alot done after that:D
!!!!!!!!!!!Will diabolo for food!!!!!!!!!!!

I bought a diabolo with the last of my cash.

GbH

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2008, 02:39:49 pm »
If you use 3ds max then you should just be able to do it with the Reactor engine, its pretty simple to use and you could just set the string to have 'rope' like properties,

No, I don't think it's quite as simple as that.  Firstly, I pretty sure that Reactor rope isn't (or at least, wasn't when I last tried...) able to collide with itself - thus making knots impossible to replicate.  Fortunately, diabolo tricks don't tend to require too many knots (certainly not as many as yo-yo players use), but it still might be an issue.  Also, if you're trying to reproduce the whole trick with Reactor, how do you deal with the diabolo's spin?  I've no idea whether a spinning object in Reactor exhibits gyroscopic behaviour - if it doesn't, then I guess you'd have to introduce some sort of constraints to stop the diabolo from just falling off of the string.

MOONSHIELD - Houdini is a modelling/animation package that performs a role to Max/Maya/XSI.  However, it goes about things in a very different way to those more well-known applications and is capable of stuff that would be difficult or impossible to achieve with anything else.  I believe that it's mainly used for cgi on feature films, but is suitable for much more than that.  The 'Channels' function (aka 'CHOPS') that I mentioned before allows you to animate your models using graphs and formulae, rather that with traditional keyframing (although it can do that too, of course).  Thus, if you wanted to animate a couple of diabolos moving in a circle, you'd just supply appropriate sine graphs to the movement axis and the the diabolos would turn for as long as you needed.  If you wanted one to go higher at some point, you'd just tweak the formula - thus, you could (in theory...) easily animate siteswap patterns, just by changing a few numbers. 

Although the full commercial version of Houdini is very expensive, the 'free' and 'starving artist' editions make it available to anyone, should they wish to give it a try.  It does take a lot of effort to figure out how it all works, though - more so than with other 3D packages I've tried.  There are video tutorials freely available, though, both at the official site and at 3DBuzz.  If you've got a lot of time available, I'd definately recommend giving it a look.  See http://www.sidefx.com/.

Guy

MOONSHEILD

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2008, 01:04:46 am »
ok so iam going to look at some of these other programs once i get my hands on them and then ill see wat i can do probibaly going to be a mix of most of them or just maya and houdini by the sounds of things. This might be more delayed because learning new software takes a few days. ill get back with my finindg in the next week or with a working test reel.

Craig
!!!!!!!!!!!Will diabolo for food!!!!!!!!!!!

I bought a diabolo with the last of my cash.

MOONSHEILD

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2008, 03:16:29 am »
http://www.jackals-forge.com/tutor/tut3_1.html i think this should do as i am fimiliar with maya think it would be fine to use as the guy says at the end there isnt any wobble in the string but i think i can live. Any thoughts

Craig
!!!!!!!!!!!Will diabolo for food!!!!!!!!!!!

I bought a diabolo with the last of my cash.

Shaun

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2008, 03:37:09 am »
looks good, but a video is so much easier to make and still shows the same thing.

Squiggle

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2008, 11:24:05 am »
I've been thinking about this for a bit, I can't work with 3dsmax at home so only get to play at school.

It'd be handy for looking at tricks you are working on, and tricks you want to be able to see in some point. And imagine what it would look like ;)   Also handy for learning, being able to look at the pattern from any angle, take out one of the diabolos to concentrate on one ETC.


One week till school goes back and I'll play around some more,  The string bit seems to be the most difficult. My teacher had no idea when I asked him, lol.

MOONSHEILD

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2008, 01:12:02 pm »
looks good, but a video is so much easier to make and still shows the same thing.
yeah i understand that but i have spare time and it goes to my portfolio, it may be more usefull or might just be about the same anyway.

i can ask my lecturer if i cant get anywhere because hes amazing at maya he worked on the lemmings at my uni when it was made by dma and went on to work on gta with them up till gta 3 and left after that so hes should know how to do string.

little fact you know why lemmings in the game are all diffrent colours. its because the programmer was colourer blind so he changed them all to contrasting colours :D
!!!!!!!!!!!Will diabolo for food!!!!!!!!!!!

I bought a diabolo with the last of my cash.

GbH

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2008, 08:26:09 pm »
I've been thinking about this for a bit, I can't work with 3dsmax at home so only get to play at school.

It'd be handy for looking at tricks you are working on, and tricks you want to be able to see in some point. And imagine what it would look like ;)   Also handy for learning, being able to look at the pattern from any angle, take out one of the diabolos to concentrate on one ETC.


One week till school goes back and I'll play around some more,  The string bit seems to be the most difficult. My teacher had no idea when I asked him, lol.

If you want something free and (relatively) simple to play around with when you've not got access to Max, you could do worse than have a look at http://www.anim8or.com/.  Whilst it's not nearly as well specified as Max (the site does it no favours at all), it does the basics of modellingd/animation and is quite easy for anyone that knows Max to pick up and get going with.  Also, you can then export any models you produce into Max when you get a chance. 


JimmyCords.

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2008, 08:23:54 am »
Has anyone mentioned GMAX yet? Its a decent 3D animation program, its just a free version of 3DS Max (its like version 3 or something). Its not longer supported by the company that makes 3ds max, but you can still download it.
Say Whaaaat?

Squiggle

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2008, 09:11:57 am »
If you want something free and (relatively) simple to play around with when you've not got access to Max, you could do worse than have a look at http://www.anim8or.com/.  Whilst it's not nearly as well specified as Max (the site does it no favours at all), it does the basics of modellingd/animation and is quite easy for anyone that knows Max to pick up and get going with.  Also, you can then export any models you produce into Max when you get a chance. 



Looks good, i'll download it and see if it works on here, otherwise I'll put it on the laptop.

I'll have to read up on how people create string/rope then.


Thanks ofc, something I can practice since JCreator started working funny.

GbH

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2008, 05:18:26 pm »
Has anyone mentioned GMAX yet? Its a decent 3D animation program, its just a free version of 3DS Max (its like version 3 or something). Its not longer supported by the company that makes 3ds max, but you can still download it.

Well, as you mentioned, GMax is no longer supported.  Even when it was supported, it was only really suitable for creating assets that were ready for importing into games - there was no supplied renderer (other than what you see in the viewports) and it wasn't possible (without hacks) to export it into any other rendered either.  So, unless you wanted a free training environment for Max itself, or were actively involved in game modding, it wasn't particularly useful.  If you want a full featured tool that's totally free, then you'd be much better off learning Blender.

Looks good, i'll download it and see if it works on here, otherwise I'll put it on the laptop.

I'll have to read up on how people create string/rope then.

Thanks ofc, something I can practice since JCreator started working funny.

Anim8or doesn't (AFAIK) offer any sort of physics simulation, so you won't find any specific rope support, as you would in Max.  However, I think that for many diabolo tricks, you don't really want/need such a solution anyway, as the string is usually taut when doing tricks.  Regular straight splines will often be a better and easier option.

MOONSHEILD

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2008, 09:20:27 am »
ok sorry for not replying for some time as ive moved flat and dont have the net its been a pain. Anyway at the momment ive been working on a game and havent had anytime to do this but hope fully once we get this game out of the way ill have time to start on this plan sorry for any delays but my game is more important to me at this time will get on this as soon as iam done peace :D
!!!!!!!!!!!Will diabolo for food!!!!!!!!!!!

I bought a diabolo with the last of my cash.

Squiggle

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2008, 02:28:35 pm »
What are you coding the game in?

Just curious.


I started playing around with the eh the thing in 3dsmax, not very far with diabolo yet. But it's fun as hell just making things knock other things down :)

MOONSHEILD

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2008, 03:22:58 pm »
ogre but i dont do programming for games as its me and a programmer doing this game and a few others
!!!!!!!!!!!Will diabolo for food!!!!!!!!!!!

I bought a diabolo with the last of my cash.

Squiggle

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2008, 05:08:29 pm »
Cool, hadn't heard of it. But google makes it sound cool.  Lmk when it's finished! :P

Was playing with OllyDbg program tonight...and didn't get far, maybe tomorrow.  /random.

MOONSHEILD

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2008, 12:44:30 am »
will do might be some time though as there is few of us doing this game but hopefully get it up on the net or something once its done
!!!!!!!!!!!Will diabolo for food!!!!!!!!!!!

I bought a diabolo with the last of my cash.

Ethan

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Re: 3D animation of tricks
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2008, 01:12:14 am »
sounds like a good idea once its finished :D
"In a ball and stick model, what do the balls represent?"  -Bio Teacher