Author Topic: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original  (Read 10861 times)

zwiggelbig

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2008, 12:11:28 am »
GREAT topic

I will post my thoughts when I get time

I second that  ;)

LaNgErZ

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2008, 12:30:32 am »
come on nev! play the game. surely the messiah has got many a thing to say on this subject.

lz
www.MightAsWellCommit.com - Diabolo Awesomeness.

Martijn

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2008, 03:05:21 pm »
Yeah, do it before I cut on a new topic tomorrow ;) or I might continue with this subject, I'm not sure yet.
download Made in Taiwan at www.arjangroenendijk.nl

Martijn

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Blog post Tijn #2 | Some examples of tweakage
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2008, 03:08:10 pm »
Thanks to Sean for the editing again :)

http://diabolo.ca/some-examples-of-tweakage/
download Made in Taiwan at www.arjangroenendijk.nl

fasilevi

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Re: Blog post Tijn #2 | Some examples of tweakage
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2008, 03:15:42 pm »
I quite understand the concept, but to make up a good trick, a lot of experience and a bit of skill is required. Changing the style of a trick like s-fan entry is different though.

pranay

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2008, 08:14:17 pm »
I also agree with tijn!
I remember at the second diabolocamp in germany we played a game called "ticks that the world doesn`t need".That means everybodz showed the worst tricks he knew and the one with the worst trick was the winner...
Now I don`t think that there are tricks anymore that the world doesn`t need.
So show your tricks even if the`re bad.Those tricks are often the source of inspiration for new tricks that might be better ;)

GbH

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2008, 09:47:48 pm »
Hmm, I've been reading this thread feeling a little puzzled about what it is everyone's getting at.  In a manner that seems similar to the online yo-yo scene, contributors here often seem to be pre-occupied with originality.  From the threads that I get around to actually looking at, it seems to get mentioned quite a lot, either in a positive light or sometimes as a weapon to criticise people that are deemed to be derivative.

I have no problem with the idea that originality, in general, is a good thing, although it's certainly possible that 'unoriginal' content, done well, can be equally as worthwhile.  I also have no problem appreciating that there has been an huge advancement in technique over the past few years, something that's naturally coupled with associated innovation.  The range and complexity of stuff that is availble to view here is somewhat mind-blowing, to say the least.

However, despite all of this technical advancement, it does seem that when looking at the bigger picture - the finished product - that a great many people still seem to be working towards what is pretty much the same end result.  Sure, the technical details might change, but the end results, be they video or stage performance, still often seem to end up looking rather generic.  I'm not exactly surprised by this - I think it's a fairly natural and understandable - but it does make me scratch my head when I see so much online emphasis being put on originality.  What is it that people are really wanting and expecting?  Is subtle technical innovation, the sort that probably won't be noticed or appreciated by 99.99% of audiences, really what people are talking about here, or is it something else?

There are, of course, strong examples of individuals (and groups) that truely are original, not just in the technical details, but in the full, finished result.  But, to me, this only seems to highlight the feeling that so many others appear to be working towards identical goals.  It almost seems that, as the technical aspects get more and more complex and challenging, so the willingness for people to branch away from contemporary technique and pursue other avenues becomes less.

Anyway, just an observation...


Guy




Marko

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2008, 12:55:57 pm »
I have a huge respect for Guy. Lot's of wise words.

Now we are actually quite in the point of everything really.
So the question to Diabolo, life and everything would be this:
"To who are you doing diabolo for?"

If to audience, i believe that Guy is 100% right. If you're doing
it only to yourself you don't have to care pretty much about anything, just do the thing that makes you happy. For diabolo community now this is
probably where it goes towards be creative attitude. I fell that the biggest
reason why diabolo has progressed the most is the community. People try to earn respect and their place in community. For that reason i try to make good videos really. I can't go for the numbers and be the numbers man. But i can try to be creative and provide new ideas for others. This community thing on the net is pretty amazing.

I had several discussions about this in 531, new juggling festival. I share my stuff freely, there are lot's of people with other views. Couple of friends (acrobatics, juggling) who want to protect their creations. Contrasting beliefs really.
┬źDiabolo, whiter than the whitest!┬╗

zwiggelbig

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2008, 11:00:04 pm »
I have a huge respect for Guy. Lot's of wise words.

Now we are actually quite in the point of everything really.
So the question to Diabolo, life and everything would be this:
"To who are you doing diabolo for?"

If to audience, i believe that Guy is 100% right. If you're doing
it only to yourself you don't have to care pretty much about anything, just do the thing that makes you happy. For diabolo community now this is
probably where it goes towards be creative attitude. I fell that the biggest
reason why diabolo has progressed the most is the community. People try to earn respect and their place in community. For that reason i try to make good videos really. I can't go for the numbers and be the numbers man. But i can try to be creative and provide new ideas for others. This community thing on the net is pretty amazing.

I had several discussions about this in 531, new juggling festival. I share my stuff freely, there are lot's of people with other views. Couple of friends (acrobatics, juggling) who want to protect their creations. Contrasting beliefs really.

Yea you are so right Marko!

But one more thing to if you are diaboloing for a diabolo community.. I think I would be scared to show what I can do for a diabolo community. Because yea I worked really hard to do what I can at the moment! Even with making my 2nd video.. Because for me its such a accomplish and I'm really proud of what I can do.

But If I would perform to a diabolo community of what I can do they think oooh another vertax genocide but they don't see that someone could've worked on it for more then a year!

So you are just doing tricks that used to be really advance but now to those advanced diaboloers its just basic things..

Could you only perform then by just being creative? In a way of your act? Its not all focused on your tricks then but all on your act! You could create a act with basic tricks but just such a creative act that nobody has ever seen before.

And then you have the diaboloers that perform and show their neat combo's and their hard advanced tricks..  Same goes for videos..

Am I right a little bit? Just correct me if I'm wrong.

Marijn

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2008, 08:33:25 am »

So the question to Diabolo, life and everything would be this:
"To who are you doing diabolo for?" 42.

Ramon, in the end you have to do something that gives you satisfaction, not something that gives ''us'' satisfaction. Creativity and such is always good, as long as it is within the boundaries of what you as a person enjoy doing!
''I have been practising some basic 2d suicide stuff to widen my arse''

Martijn

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2008, 08:53:07 am »
Spot on Marijn! I do diabolo, because it's fun. I try to create new stuff, because of the feeling when you find something interesting that makes you go whoa! :)
download Made in Taiwan at www.arjangroenendijk.nl

zwiggelbig

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2008, 11:42:43 am »
Spot on Marijn! I do diabolo, because it's fun. I try to create new stuff, because of the feeling when you find something interesting that makes you go whoa! :)

Ramon, in the end you have to do something that gives you satisfaction, not something that gives ''us'' satisfaction. Creativity and such is always good, as long as it is within the boundaries of what you as a person enjoy doing!

You and you! Thank you!

Yur both so Right!

Marijn I do diabolo because I think its fun! And I don't really care what others say about it. I can't help it that most people don't really have a hobby and just sit at home the whole day long! But though it is satisfying if people watch to your tricks and accept what you do.

And Martijn yea I know that! Whenever I managed to do something I thought was impossible for me I get such a great feeling! Trying to catch a vertax genocide for over a year and finaly be able to catch it feels sooo great! Even though I can't finish it yet but still!

Yea this are the motivations for me =)

GbH

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2008, 09:33:19 pm »
<snip/>

Marijn I do diabolo because I think its fun! And I don't really care what others say about it.

<snip/>

Hmm.  This attitude is fair enough if you just diabolo on your own.  However, if you're at all involved in presenting your skills to others, be that by video, stage performances or any other means, then it might very well be seen as being rather selfish.

Any time that you present something for others to view, you're effectively asking them to give up some of their time for you, time that could be spent doing something else.  This is fairly apparent when performing to a live audience, but the significance is probably even greater when putting something online for the whole world to see.  As such, it seems only fair that in return for winning your audience's attention, you stop thinking only about your own enjoyment and start to think about what it is that you'll be offering in return.

Also, if you really didn't care what others thought of your work, why would you even bother showing anyone in the first place?

Guy

zwiggelbig

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2008, 10:07:08 pm »
Hmm, you are right at some points.. But I kinda meant that I don't care what others say about it in the way of I don't care what others think of me diaboloing. Because lots don't care and don't see the fun.

But hmm I do have to take some words back.. Yes I DO CARE WHAT OTHERS THINK! Why else am I asking everyday to my parents hey watch what I learned new! Or to my friends, sister.. But the only problem with that is I care about their opinion and I want their attention on my new things.. But they DON'T care.. They already say WAUW greet! When I'm just speeding up..

Anyways about this one: Also, if you really didn't care what others thought of your work, why would you even bother showing anyone in the first place?

Ok one reason of me creating a video is to see my progression! And then I'm proud of what I do. But then again why do I post the link? Why do I want everyone I know to see my video? Hmm Ok you are right. I do care what others think.

I think if you would not.. You would be very lonely.. And could you even continue diaboling if you just did it all for youself? And you would never show anyone of what you can do?

A wise man named Sean once said somewhere in a topic that he diabolod for himself and he learned new tricks to impress himself! This counts for all of us I think.. But still I think we all care what others think in a way.. May it be for performances like you do guy or any other great diabolist or just a normal kid that likes diaboloing..

If anything I said is diffrent in your eyes then please say so =)

-Ramon

GbH

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2008, 10:50:57 pm »
<snip/>

But hmm I do have to take some words back.. Yes I DO CARE WHAT OTHERS THINK! Why else am I asking everyday to my parents hey watch what I learned new! Or to my friends, sister.. But the only problem with that is I care about their opinion and I want their attention on my new things.. But they DON'T care.. They already say WAUW greet! When I'm just speeding up..

<snip/>

OK, then, think back to what I said previously.  When you're showing your friends and family your stuff, are you really thinking about what it is that you're actually showing them, or are you just thinking about your own delight in learning something new?  Most people have little interest in raw diabolo technique.  It's just not on their radar - there's too many other things in the world to be thinking about.  What's more, even for the few that are interested, figuring out which tricks are hard and which are easy, just by seeing something once, is often not straightforward (I know I've been caught out with this on many occasions).  So, if you're showing people something that you've spent a long time learning and are excited about, can you really be surprised if they don't understand what the big deal is?

The probable truth of it is that your friends and family would love to care about what you do and probably would do if you gave a bit more thought about what it is that's going to interest and entertain them.  They might not appreciate technical diabolo technique, but there's a good chance that they'll understand humour, surprise, danger, style and other such ideas.  Thus, it then becomes your job to figure out how you can package up the technique into something that gets the response that you're looking for.  And, funnily enough, that's exactly where the creativity thing really kicks in...

Guy

zwiggelbig

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2008, 11:37:20 pm »
Wow.. Absolutly wow..

I've never actualy though about it that way..

Hmm its actualy kinda logic.. Its the same as that a high toss gets way more attention to non juggling crowd then a hard slackwhip ( non LangerZ style )

One way I could get their attention is to explain the trick, and the work that I had to put in.. But even then they might still not understand.

Now I get back to the wise words sean once said.. Hard tricks that might not even look so great for other people I and perhaps more just learn to amaze yourself! If I see a trick and I think WOW I will never be able to do that.. But still I work on it verry hard and long and when I finaly land the trick. Then I'm so amazed by myself! That I pulled that off so I simply do it to amaze myself.

What about you guy? You perform with one routine and you never change it right? But still do you learn new tricks just for yourself? Yo amaze yourself to?

So to get to a conclusion.. If I or any other really want to get other people attention and even with hard tricks that might not look cool.. You shouldn't aim on your diabolo tricks but aim on your act I gues.. Put the creativity in the act or.. Change the style of performing your trick..

For example http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=1409.0 Martijns weird little dance  :) Tweak the tricks.. And thats what this blog is about to.

And Guy.. Could you post a video of one of your performence with your routine once? I can't find it anywhere and I would really like to see it  :)

Cheers,

-Ramon

GbH

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2008, 05:48:43 pm »
To answer the questions above, the diabolo routine that I became known for was mostly performed during the early-to-mid '90s, although I've done variations on it on-and-off since then, when asked.  It featured on a number of convention videos at the time, but I don't think it's ever been uploaded.  To be honest, I'm really not convinced that it would be of any particular interest to the juggling community now - things have developed so much since then.  The routine's structure always stayed pretty much the same, but the finer content and the way it was performed naturally developed over time, as you might expect.

For a long time now, most of my shows have been in looser, walk-about type environments where I change what I do according to the situation I'm in.  There seems to be a lot more demand for this type of performance in the UK, so I do what's required.  Having said that, over the last six months or so, I've been developing and performing diabolo stuff that's very different to what I've done before, taking advantage of both regular and single-sided bearing diabolos.  So maybe you'll get to see some of that at some point.   Thanks for taking an interest.

Guy