Author Topic: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility  (Read 11527 times)

Sean

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Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« on: February 26, 2009, 03:54:37 am »
Started writing a long forum post and turned it into a blog entry.
Any thoughts, ideas, or suggestions?

http://diabolo.ca/backhands-rim-throws-and-5-years-of-futility/

Just going to add some tags here for search purposes: 3 high throw start

Rim throw:


Backhand:


Under the diabolo:

Crackers

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2009, 10:28:19 am »
Not sure I understand what the different start names you refer to actually are.
Could you explain each one (with possibily a photo)?

Diabolo88

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2009, 01:36:56 pm »
I started learning 3 high with rimthrows but then switched to underhand. I can throwstart 3 high now with right underhand (my start of choice), left backhand and right hand rimthrows so my comparison is this:

Rimthrows: the fastest throws but hard to place accurately. You don´t get a lot of spin but instead you buy yourself a lot of time for the initial stringthrows to be accurate. You can also throw high and get a lot of spin with very little effort. I think these are the best throws if you can get them accurate.

Underhandthrows: Gives the most speed and are accurate without much practice and probably also the most consistant...but they are slow and you can´t throw as high while keeping spin. You will most likely also turn your body a bit which makes the first throws from the string a bt more pressed for time because you have to turn back and most people will bob their knees a little bit too much which also steals time.

Backhand:....inferior in every way. You need to grip around the axle every time which slows you down, you need to use your wrist a lot more than for underhands which also slows you down but worst of all is you need to throw away from you which is unnatural whilst still trying to put spin on the throw with your wrist. You can get a "decent" throw with them quicker than you can learn accurately with the rimthrow but the rimthrow is still quicker and the trajectory of the throw isn´t as awkward.

^My thoughts but everyone has different opinion ofcourse. Don´t know if this is what you mean either actually because Tony still uses the rimstart (left-handed) or do you mean underhand as rimstart? For me rimstart means pinching the edge with the thumb and indexfinger while the other fingers stabilize.

Sean

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2009, 01:45:16 pm »
I updated my original post with photos.

Interesting.

Don´t know if this is what you mean either actually because Tony still uses the rimstart (left-handed) or do you mean underhand as rimstart?
He switches back and forth between rim starts and underhand throws. He usually seems to start 3d with underhand throws, originally worked on 4d with rim throws, then switched to underhand, and now seems to be back to rim throws.

So, do you have any ideas on how exactly to hold the diabolo or what to think about when throwing to get a straight diabolo that doesn't wobble from a rim throw?

Crackers

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2009, 01:57:36 pm »
Thanks Sean, that helps a lot  :)
I've done a bit of thinking myself on that subject when I considered starting seriously 4 high. I used to start 3 from a trapeze start but I thought that to master my 3 high I needed to learn to throw with my hands better. After some practice I sticked with a right hand rim throw. I chose this one because I'm useless with my left hand and this was the only one that didn't felt awkward (it allows the body to stay straighter). Under the diabolo was a close second but I couldn't do several in a row fast enough, though it's easier to start drawing the high pattern while throwing them.
Backhands just seemed silly really, but when I think about it know, it seems left hand backhands would be the ideal start for 4 high because after the start it's your non-dominant hand who has to take the stick which should be an advantage, and it seems it's the left hand start where you have the better pattern visualisation.
I still don't know if I need to focus on perfecting my right rim throw or switch to an other one to learn 4 high... Right now I have my 3 throws kinda solidish but I throw in a sort of Cascade pattern, and this might not be very effective to learn  :embarassed:

Sean > It's the index who does the most part of the job, don't hesitate to put a lot of force in the throw.
An other thing I like about this start, is that it's the one you can throw the lower since it's the fastest, and lower = more precision

Diabolo88

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2009, 03:17:51 pm »
Quote
Right now I have my 3 throws kinda solidish but I throw in a sort of Cascade pattern, and this might not be very effective to learn 

But that´s how Tony throwstarts too so surely it´s good. I also throwstart 4 like that with my right. Tony has the right idea I think because he only needs to use two different throws. Underhand for 3 and left rim for 4-5. Guess it´s just personal preference (for me I think it feels weird to throwstart with the left).

Quote
it seems left hand backhands would be the ideal start for 4 high because after the start it's your non-dominant hand who has to take the stick which should be an advantage, and it seems it's the left hand start where you have the better pattern visualisation.

I don´t think so. Look at Yabe how much trouble he has had with 4. Still the same trajectory vs speed/stability-problem but even worse if it´s less power.

Quote
So, do you have any ideas on how exactly to hold the diabolo or what to think about when throwing to get a straight diabolo that doesn't wobble from a rim throw?

Thumb gripping the outside, indexfinger does the most gripping like Crackers said and it´s more straight to follow the edge (for more grip and control). The other fingers pretty much only stabilize so they are more bent. I took some pics because as alwyas my explanations are crap:







For the motion. Only rotating the diabolo while going upwards means a more stable throw. If you flick your wrist it´ll spin more but usually also be a bit more wobbly (my lefthandthrows are perfectly straight while the ones from the right wobble a little bit).

I noticed I do not have my thumb like you because "the more fingercontact" with the diabolo the better imo (more control) + you will be able to have more time with the diabolo in the hand during the throw if you hold like that. My hands are pretty small though so it´s not an option for everyone to keep their thumb like that. You shouldn´t have the palm so close because that will not make you able to use the wrist as much.

Your underthrow also looks different actually. Try throwing the underthrow holding the same way as the backhand.

Sean

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2009, 03:36:07 pm »
Thank you! I will bring your photos and descriptions with me and try it out.

Your underthrow also looks different actually. Try throwing the underthrow holding the same way as the backhand.
Woah - really!? Maybe that's why I can't throw worth a damn that way!

P.S. Imageshack says there are some cute girls in my area. Thanks imageshack!

zwiggelbig

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2009, 03:45:40 pm »
Woa! This is a kinda topic I was looking for all the time withouth knowing it! Sean thanks alot! I learned 2 high myself now but not that perfect yet but still. This summer I want to go on on learning the bascis of 3 high but I had no idea how to get them up in the air. I saw the trapeze start from William but that ones kinda hard for me.. But with this topic I think I will be able to learn it next summer =)

Sean

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2009, 04:47:57 pm »
Great. I think there are a couple other useful threads. This is the only one I can find right now:
http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=267

oh, and this:
http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=950.0

--
Edit

Can I ask what on earth is the advantage of rim throwing from the left rim (assuming you're right handed)? Watching the recent Tony vids I noticed that he still throws them straight up on the right side, so you don't even get the advantage of starting in the correct trajectory, i.e. an oval.

So... you use your weaker hand, have to turn your body more, and throw from what would seem to be an awkward position.

Diabolo88

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2009, 06:43:43 pm »
The only reason for using that throw for Tony seems to be he only needs to use two different throws that way (underhand and left rim). He´s been doing the 2D duicide for so long his left is probably just good enough to be accurate and fast. Why he doesn´t continued to start 4 with underhandthrows like he did for a while is a mystery though. Righthandspeed but underhandthrows are slower VS rimthrows are faster but lefthand is slower?

Ben.

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2009, 07:19:58 pm »
Can someone PLEASE do a 'Blog' of how to trapeze with 2 and not have the diab fall down? i am using extremes

Loriot

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2009, 08:30:05 pm »
For me the rimthrows from the right hand are the best, by starting three diabolos.
I use is it in the way Diabolo88 pictured it. But to stabalize the throws and to give them extra speed I move my thumb downwards to increase the momentum of the diabolo.
Another fact, which didn't have been mentioned yet is that it is very helpful to use your knees to gain height and to put the Diabolos in the right place.

@Ben: Try to make the Trapeze as short as possible (talking about a right Trapeze for righties).
The Diabolo should be very very near to your right stick, while it is inside the Trapeze.
Another thing which worked for me very well by learning the Trapeze start for 3low is that the right stick has to be as parallel as possible to the ground, because the string won't be able to slip up or down to the stick now.
Then move your right stick to your left hand. Try to put the right stick a little bit under the left one, because this will stable the whole thing, when you have both sticks in your left hand.
Right hand is now free and able to throw the third diabolo.

mike.

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2009, 08:44:29 pm »
Can someone PLEASE do a 'Blog' of how to trapeze with 2 and not have the diab fall down? i am using extremes

the easiest way to do it for me. and i use extremes too, is to make sure you hold the sticks perpendicular. then it should stay.
can't believe its not butter

Diabolo Dodson

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2009, 08:48:15 pm »
the easiest way to do it for me. and i use extremes too, is to make sure you hold the sticks perpendicular. then it should stay.
Or just put some tape on ya sticks, that works for me.

Jesse

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2009, 08:55:05 pm »
Yeah I use tape too.

William

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2009, 09:08:20 pm »
Tape? Eww. Maybe I'm just a purist.
As DiaboloWho (or Mike, whatever he would like to be called?) said, its all in the hold, you should be able to do it with xtremes, aluminium, carbon or even wood.
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

mike.

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2009, 09:35:22 pm »
DiaboloWho (or Mike, whatever he would like to be called?)

Mike is fine, diabolowho was just a name i had for...well everything.

all in the technique...
can't believe its not butter

Ben.

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2009, 10:24:57 pm »
Really Nothing works for me. i have tried everything but it doesn't work.
might have to use some tape tbh

Hathaway

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2009, 10:32:24 pm »
Ben. get the little black ring from a set of old sticks (the one that is under the grip) take it off the old one and put it on your current ones just underneath the tip, the string will no longer slip at all.
Alex abuses flys!

barnesy

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Re: Backhands, rim throws, and 5 years of futility
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2009, 10:34:43 pm »
Tape used to work for me shortly after I switched from wood to Henrys alus.  Big wodges of the cloth tape Henrys use for clubs and cigar boxes.  But yeah, it was pretty horrible so I got rid of it.  I guess I'm just holding the sticks better now, like how people have already advised in this thread.  Maybe the tape can help in the short term though.