Author Topic: Why all the vertax hate?  (Read 5645 times)

TonyDHelms29624

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Why all the vertax hate?
« on: March 16, 2009, 07:58:28 pm »
Hey Peoples. Lately, I've been hearing some people talking crap about vertax and I was just wondering why? Is it purist thing or what?

Martijn

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2009, 07:59:40 pm »
Could you be more specific? Quotes, links?

Also, is your question about the terminology debate, or the style of diabolo itself?
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TonyDHelms29624

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2009, 08:27:38 pm »
I'm referring to the actual style itself.

Sean

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2009, 08:43:04 pm »
I think it's just that some people don't get much out of watching the style itself... or think that it all looks the same.

It's interesting that there are some phenomenal diaboloists out there who have never bothered to learn even the basics of it.

Hathaway

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 10:28:28 pm »
I think its because there is hardly anything new ever with vertax. Every persons new video and so so so many practice vids include the olbgitary vertax gen, thats about it, its just not explored all that much.
Alex abuses flys!

Diabolo Dodson

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 10:36:16 pm »
For me its because the only tricks i ever see are suns, genocides and the occasional magic knot around the neck, when i see new stuff with vertax i think it looks phenomenal, but i rarely see any new stuff. I think people just get bored of seeing the same tricks, its like 3D everyone just does feed the sun 2-3, its a bit boring when so many people have done it aswell.

Ben.

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 10:37:28 pm »
i've got some new vertax stuff.
Vertax is the ****

Alex!

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 11:45:36 pm »
Its fast, I like the slow
STOP! HAMMER 'TIJN

mike.

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2009, 01:38:59 am »
i think doing vertax tricks are hard but as dodson said, you only see a few tricks.

the only vertax i like to watch is M4U
can't believe its not butter

seaneatsmuffins

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2009, 12:19:11 pm »
i agree with dodson not a lot of tricks but i like vertax and making my friends say wow after i pull off a double genocide its fun to do
Nobody else like me

Alex!

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2009, 05:34:16 pm »
It's stupid for people to say they don't like vertax becasue there arn't any new or original tricks. Maybe if they spent less time complaining about it and more time trying to be creative with vertax they'd solve their own problem.
STOP! HAMMER 'TIJN

Ben.

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2009, 07:05:30 pm »
whole videos have been made with just vertax...

Timaeschulze

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2009, 07:10:05 pm »
Maybe there are people who can't play vertax. So they don't like it because they can't do it, or i should say, they can't do tricks are something. I like vertax very much, but it's very hard to learn new tricks. A gen is simple but some combos from M4U like the integral, that's just epic.
Yeah I agree with Alex, vertax is fast and I like the smooth ones more, but it's a special part of diabolo.

Jesse

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2009, 07:46:06 pm »
Vertax can be fast, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. Just like everything else. You can always slow down.

Martijn

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 09:12:15 pm »
You can only slow it down to a certain extent though. It needs the fast motion to stay vertical.
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Marko

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2009, 04:06:25 pm »
What do my eyes see here?

First of all, vertax is the coolest thing around nowadays. But that's just my opinion. ;)
For some reason it just doesn't get the respect it deserves, which makes it even cooler.

I kinda disagree on this.
Quote
It needs the fast motion to stay vertical.
The motion you need to keep it going on is quite simple. Well the spin has to be quite
fast to keep it on right plane that's true but the motion of player doesn't have to be that fast.
And you can overcome most of problems with just changing in to bearing diabolo. Usually the problems, come from lack of control.

Not saying that it is easy to do vertax. But if you put even one third of the practice time people put
on 3d low, you get awesome results. I'm waiting eagerly to see my 3minute finnish diabolo competition vertax set, hoping that it looks slow and solid enough to publish...

Now i'm just claiming that there are many knots and positions in vertax that can be done really slowly if you have enough spin on diabolo. The moment you stop doing genocides in vertax, is when you start getting new tricks. ;)
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

Martijn

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2009, 04:57:47 pm »
I'd like to see some video evidence before I reply to your statement Marko! ;)
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Marko

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2009, 05:27:00 pm »
I know you would. ;)

But i'll review competition footage first. If it's not what i think it is i can just run away from the door with my statements which don't apply...

The vertax won't be nothing more special than the stuff i have on this video just before
the midpoint of the video. If that isn't slow enough i will back down respectfully.

http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/flvideo/1700.flv
http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/view_video.php?viewkey=cbb7505cb641066f2859
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

Jesse

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2009, 06:48:36 pm »
I know there's no footage online yet, but I saw that routine live and it's incredible.

Also Marko is a good example of someone who can do insanely slow vertax. I still need to learn that technique.

Martijn

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2009, 07:04:36 pm »
That was very controlled and slow, but there isn't really anything you can do to actually stop the diabolo in excalibur (except for grinding it). You can't hold it still on the string without it falling or tangling up in a few moments. There's always some action going on to keep the diabolo in that plane. Differences in tempo are one of the things that are so appealing in regular diabolo play, which makes it a pleasure to watch.

Of course, I don't know if this is all true, I'm just trying to find a explanation why some people don't like excalibur!

Nevertheless, your excalibur stuff is pretty amazing :)
download Made in Taiwan at www.arjangroenendijk.nl

Jesse

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2009, 07:07:45 pm »
That's true Martijn. But I was referring to Alex's statement that vertax is fast. To me it isn't always. I know you can't totally stop, but to me vertax can be pretty damn slow with proper technique (which I don't have). But it's just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.  :)

Marko

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2009, 06:46:20 am »
Quote
.. there isn't really anything you can do to actually stop the diabolo in excalibur ...

I'm not sure if this is true eighter, but there might be some positions where you can hold vertax relatively still. That would be doing side pulls while diabolo is in wrap. Nowadays i use them more than ever. There might be just a few done in this video, during the moments i walk toward or away from camera. Trick section begins at 5:00.

Diabolo - Four point vertax tutorial

All that is done with normal diabolo. Switch to bearing and you can just pull string tight in the middle of the trick and have diabolo still. Here's one gyro flop (yo-yo, conversion) done with bearings. Right at the midpoint of video. Slower than that i cannot get.

http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/flvideo/1719.flv
http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/view_video.php?viewkey=a60d6a1afaf7859c5076

Thank you Jesse for kind words. But really if you want to see real vertax done refer to Jouni Ihalainen. He is my master.
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

samuli

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2009, 08:55:59 am »
I'm with Jesse and Marko with this. You can play vertax in any speed you like, like normal diabolo. it's really up to you. Some hate it, some hate 3 low. So what's up. It's just one way to play, don't hate the game, nor players. Here's enough space for all of us. If you don't like to practise vertax enough to have control for it, then don't, but don't hate the people who do, or say that it's not cool just because you can't, or just don't understand.

For eight points of vertax (Marko's video) How many of you have applied this thing to your normal play with one, two, or three diabolos. It works, it might not be easy but it's same thing.  At least I haven't seen this stuff almost at all on any videos yet.

Don't people think? Do you always need to see example first to decide what to do?

I'm really glad that there is so many diaboloplayers who really give away great stuff for all of us to try and are willing to help when we struggle.

This is great but it's not all to it. There's more to diabolo than this.

well back to vertax control, again like Marko said Jouni is his master and you can see some of Jouni's stuff on most of FDC 2008 videos.

[noembed]http://youtube.com/watch?v=mKJYRf-G_jA[/noembed]
[noembed]http://youtube.com/watch?v=FY0GgdXfCaU[/noembed]
[noembed]http://youtube.com/watch?v=_5b3yXZr1x8[/noembed] (begins with Jouni)

not direct links. but you can find it (mod edit - I fixed that for you, if you put [ noembed ] tags around youtube links [without the spaces], they won't embed in your post).  Jouni is the true master of vertax.
www.fdc2016.org /www.supiainen.com

pilch

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2009, 10:33:29 am »
i like vertax its really hard tho at the moment (my string is so dirty and i havent got any left) but it always gives a laugh to my friends when it gets you in the face and it all ways shows people what for when they say thats easy i can do all that n then there mouth just drops ps does any one know where i can buy string from (whole roll) but not fire toys they kinda pissed me off at a festival last year cheers
trust me but i dont know what im doing

Diabolo88

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2009, 10:55:00 am »
In excalibur I play a lot with gyrogrinds on fingers and sticks. Loads of possibilities not fully explored there. Also fingerforks, stick/string/handstalls and self-floorpasses I have done quite a few funny things with (still don´t have a camera so as usual nobody will get an example of any of it :().

Who is hating on excalibur exactly? I have never heard anyone call it boring at all.

Alex!

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2009, 07:36:00 pm »
I have never heard anyone call it boring at all.
http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=3153.0
You have now  ;)

I actualy quite enjoy the occasional vertax, as long as its original, just as with numbers like Arjans recent votw's. I think it gets a bad rap because people don't seem to explore it much and are content leaving it at a gen...and then film it and put it on youtube like everyone else until that's all you see.

I play a lot with gyrogrinds on fingers
How does that not destroy your fingers?
STOP! HAMMER 'TIJN

pilch

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2009, 10:53:39 pm »
Ive bin doing vertex with a loop diabolo and can do some basic tricks nothing to special alltho i suppose u could
trust me but i dont know what im doing

Crackers

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2009, 10:23:41 pm »
Not totally related to the topic, but this was posted on jongle.net and I thought it was nice.

ShangQiu Chinese Top Spinning-1

A drink at EJC to the one who does that sequence with a regular diabolo (bearing or not). Looks great if you ask me ...

Diabolo88

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2009, 08:43:57 pm »
Quote
A drink at EJC to the one who does that sequence with a regular diabolo (bearing or not). Looks great if you ask me ...

That first behind the head roll he did was nice (trying that out tomorrow). The rest...um... :o.

Quote
I have never heard anyone call it boring at all.


http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=3153.0
You have now 

Thanks I remember that thread now (actually had seen it before). Just going to say it´s not boring at all.

Quote
I play a lot with gyrogrinds on fingers


How does that not destroy your fingers?

Suns and Diabigs are very easy to gyro with and it doesn´t really hurt. I have never tried with any other diabs so I don´t know if they hurt more but stick with Suns and you wont get hurt even at full speed ;).

pilch

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2009, 11:56:31 am »
Quote

    I play a lot with gyrogrinds on fingers


    How does that not destroy your fingers?


have you seen the Revolution kit for the Finesse and Tornado don't you think that would work grate i might actually go by a tornado
trust me but i dont know what im doing

The Void

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Re: Why all the vertax hate?
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2009, 05:27:58 pm »
I've read through this thread, and the other one, and having had a good long think about it, I've decided that Vertax is rubbish!

The Void
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