Author Topic: Does skills improve when....  (Read 4313 times)

albertalsacien

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Does skills improve when....
« on: March 21, 2011, 07:27:19 pm »
Hey,
I have an existential question about some phenomenons which I think influence my skills but only for a short period of time. Here is what I mean:
I've noticed that when my string brake and I reuse the string (with extrem MB), or when I change to do high diabolo from a gym to an outside space, or when I switch diabolo for example from finess to taibolo, or when I practiced high diabolo in a windy day and then without wind, that my skill changes. I need an adaptation time before being able to do the same tricks with different types of diabolo or to do high diabolo in different spaces.
I was wondering if those factors which plays on you feelings of diabolo make you improve, I mean that you get stronger and more solid in every kind of situation or if inversely those factor would make you take longer to learn a trick and take weird habits.
I hope you guys have been facing some of this when playing high in different spaces, often changing type of diabolo or length of string to help me figure out if it's a good thing.

ER

Wis

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Re: Does skills improve when....
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2011, 08:27:10 pm »
I have a theory, that btw I am almost sure that is wrong, that is going quite parallel to yours, IMO your really know how to make a trick when you can do it with any kind of diabolo, and almost any kind of string (of course brand new string doesn't count for 2 diabolos for example). Apart from that I also try to change at least sticks from time to time to solidify some basic tricks to, theoretically, make easier to learn the new ones. About trying new tricks with different sticks I am not so experienced.
About the wind I am training high outside with a pretty damn variable wind, I will let you know when I get a gym, :)
"The string...the inertia...the hours"

MIKA

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Re: Does skills improve when....
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2011, 04:08:30 pm »
The scientific term in sports-sciences for practicing a skill with different equipment or in a different environment or as they call changing the parameter is called differenciation (i am not totallly sure about the english term in german it's called "differenzierung").
So according to sport-scientists,- in order to achieve optimal motor learning you should use different equipment (diabolos and sticks) and use different  training conditions. Also it has been shown that variable motor learning is more effectiv in children than adults though.

I guess to make it easy to understand,- practicing a figure or trick with different diabolos and sticks should make your skill aquisition more solid than with only one.
MIKA- skill, beauty and visual artistry

Duncan

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Re: Does skills improve when....
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 05:19:10 pm »
differenciation (i am not totallly sure about the english term in german it's called "differenzierung").

Probably "differentiation." Yours is the French spelling (so, correct).

Mika: could you post a link to your source? I'd like to see what these people wrote.

SebiHausi

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Re: Does skills improve when....
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 08:10:12 pm »
i have to agree here.
when i started to switch between sticks (very heavy and very easy ones) i had big problems to do integrals after the switch at first, but the more i did it the more i became comfortable with it, it just gets better with practice.

Mario

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Re: Does skills improve when....
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2011, 07:44:12 pm »
I have a different opinion concerning this. I think it only gets harder the more different environment or equipment you have. How can you ever get used to something and get a certain style if you change the conditions all the time? Maybe you are better with carbon sticks if you use all different kinds of sticks than someone who always practises with aluminium sticks. But I think you will never get your tricks as solid as a diabolist who has specialised on a certain equipment. Using the same length of string makes it easier too. When you do an integral you lern where exactly you have to move your hand to catch the stick, for example. And that's not possible if you change the length all the time.

Mr.D

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Re: Does skills improve when....
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2011, 01:02:48 am »
Interesting topic.
(My point is at the bottom, if you don't care to read this whole chunk of text)
@Mario: Anyone - please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the learning-method that you (Mario) are describing can be linked to "muscle memory". It means that your muscles/body memorizes a set of movements that you have repeated over and over, and so are able to do those movements very accurately. The problem with this kind of learning is that it requires a constant environment - no variables, no change - to be able to execute correctly. It also require you to memorize a new set of movements for every new trick. On the opposite side, learning a set of movements while constantly varying the environment will take longer time, but it makes your movement adaptable to change, which means that if the environment changes while you're doing the particular move, it won't throw you off balance, but you are more likely to adapt to the change and continue the movement. Additionally, it will be easier to change the move and learn new moves, since you're not as "strapped tight" to past set of moves.

An easy way to look at it is through this little story:
A human juggler and a programmable robot juggler is outside juggling (obviously). The sun is shining, there's no wind and they are both doing really great, except the human juggler seem to have some trouble doing the hardest tricks perfectly. The programmed robot juggler however is doing everything perfect, which is amazing considering that it took only a day and a half to program the robot. Suddenly the sky is filled with dark clouds and the heavy rain is pouring down making both the jugglers and their equipment dripping wet. The water makes the equipment heavier, so the human juggler has to adjust the power of his throws to adapt to the change. The same counts for the robot, but he is unable to adapt and so he eventually misses a catch... Poor robot. A week later the robot has learned several new tricks, using a day and a half to program each one. The human however is a bit depressed, because he has only learned a few new tricks. One day both jugglers decide they wish to learn yet another trick. The programmer sits down and prepares for another day and a half of programming, but the human juggler uses his adaptable human-abilities and gathers his knowledge from all the other tricks he has learned the past week and it doesn't take long before he can proudly show off the new move to his metallic counterpart.


Off course, the reality is not as black and white as this story. The point is that learning without change of environment will probably cause you to learn single tricks quicker, especially in the beginning. And this is important because it builds up both experience and motivation. However, learning with change in environment will make you more adaptable, meaning you get a better "feel" for how to control your movements and how to change them as needed. Control is what separates the advanced players from the beginners, and it will enable you to learn variations, combos and new tricks quicker. :)
(Sorry for the long post...)
If you try and don't succeed, cheat. Repeat until caught. Then lie.
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Tipper

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Re: Does skills improve when....
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2011, 03:57:41 pm »
Skills improve when you smoke ****

Its proven, i learnt several new 4ball tricks this weekend.

Error 404 - Siteswap not found

Konsta

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Re: Does skills improve when....
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2011, 04:48:50 pm »
Skills improve when you smoke ****

Its proven, i learnt several new 4ball tricks this weekend.




:)

Diabolo88

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Re: Does skills improve when....
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2011, 05:12:03 pm »
I want to say different restrictions to what you're doing often help too. My 3D high only really "clicked" at first when I was in a gym with a roof where the diabs had 10 cm clearance or so (forcing the throws to be precise and especially forcing the start to be in beat without rushing throws). My whiptricks started looking better when I practiced once while having a fever. Didn't work very well at that time but I was so weak in the arms I had to automatically think about how to whip and throw the sticks so they would even get around.

jcphutchings

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Re: Does skills improve when....
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2011, 06:33:01 pm »
Skills improve when you smoke ****

Its proven, i learnt several new 4ball tricks this weekend.

its true man. i havent smoked for like a month or two because ive had exams and my motivation is dipping because i cant just get lost in experimenting and get really excited when i learn something new, even though i have learnt a lot. i just dont notice, i just get obsessed with drilling the same trick because i cant pull it off every time rather than just having fun. i think a change in attitude now and then is important.

BruceM

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Re: Does skills improve when....
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2011, 12:36:19 pm »
hahahah what a theory :)

i've just quit smoking, two days ago

AAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH i cannot stand it :)

wmjbyatt

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Re: Does skills improve when....
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2011, 03:13:13 pm »
How has flow not entered this conversation yet?

For those who don't know, flow is a state achieved when the level of one's skill in a specific problem domain is matched by the level of difficulty in that domain of a problem at hand. In flow, the agent loses consciousness of self and is immersed entirely in the problem at hand, usually with a strong suspension of conceptual thought. A well-maintained flow can move towards a sustained peak experience (basically, the neuropsychological phenomenon of blissing out into a state of temporary transcendence and serenity), and for many of us toys like diabolos serve primarily to facilitate flow.

It's been empirically demonstrated that flow is where optimal learning occurrs. When you're riding flow, your mind and body learn new skills extremely rapidly. The point of all this, however, is that if your skill level is going up, in order to maintain flow the problem difficulty must also increase; thus, skill training occurs best when we are constantly pushing our skill level, and the fact is that it DOESN'T MATTER how or in what direction we are pushing that skill level. We can maintain flow (and learn rapidly) by changing the variability of the conditions or the intensity of the tricks: it's irrelevant. Neither one will teach us BETTER, they'll just teach us in a particular direction, so whether you cross-train or specialize is no longer a question of which will make you a better diaboloist, but rather which will make you the kind of diaboloist you want to be.

tyson_11

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Re: Does skills improve when....
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2011, 06:32:12 am »
I agree with Mario. I used small yoho's for about 5 months before i finally got my sundia suns and have been using them now for about 2 months. I find that if i use my yoho's for like 10 minutes and then use my suns, my style has been completely thrown out and it takes a while to get used to it again. Basically in this situation i would prefer to use my suns and not use the yoho's at all because it just ends up teaching me bad habits and disrupts my learning. I think that there are some exceptions that variety equals improvement but it's not always the case.