Introducing the Diabolo Trick Exhibition for 2005

[Matt_]

i don't think this is a matter where one can say "you're wrong, i'm right" because it's purely opinionated.

i first started diabolo at juggling club at school.  i didn't gain any interest in diabolo by the simple tricks i learned at the beginning. i gained interest watching Matt Hall do tons of tricks that blew me away because of how cool they were. i didn't start playing guitar by watching kids at school dick around playing crappy songs--i started playing guitar from watching my guitar heroes like Kirk Hammet and Tom Morello.

i own a yoyo. i rarely use it because i have nothing to strive for. getting together and learning basic tricks is definitely NOT what i want to do for yoyo. as of yet, i havent seen an inspiring yoyoist, therefore, i haven't gotten into it.

anyway, my point is, some people obviously think this is a good idea, and some don't. going by that, i reason that some of the people that go to this yoyo fest will think the diabolo comp is a good idea. therefore, it could be a success (but i still don't like the idea )

i gave this a lot of thought today, and i think that this is the reason i like diabolo (and the community) much better than yoyo. in yoyo, from what i've been shown (lots of videos and things) is that the faster you can do the tricks, the more you win. on diabolo, it's more about finesse (no pun intended) and an interesting routine. i watched a lot of videos from Japan nationals (yoyo) and to me, the coolest routines didnt win. the guys that just did a ton of crap that i couldnt see really fast won. but with diabolo, you have videos like Arjan's latest ones with a lot of slow yet complex and smooth combos that flow.

and lastly, out of this very long post, i actually checked, Chico is like 3 and a half hours away from where i live, that's too far to go anyway  

[seán_]

I'm not a big fan of competitions but I understand (at least I think I do) what is being planned here.

I was tempted to enter the YoYo ladder contest at the Derby BJC but found that I was i the position that I had a lot of the later tricks but hadnt a chance of getting there because of my lack of knowledge of some of the base moves. Ok if I had time to learn all of them but I did feel it excluded me as a spur of the moment potential competitor. If the Ladder had been broken up and I could have passed on certain moves like a high jumper does with lower heights then I would have been more up for it.

Personally I think the order of those tricks does not scan if they are meant to go up in difficulty.

I have factored the order I learnt, how I have taught others, similarity between certain tricks, popularity of tricks and this is how I would personally find them. (just my 2p and I fully understand how others would have a completly different order)

1. Spinner (5 seconds)
5. High toss and catch
4. Trapeze
15. Double on trapeze [especially for YoYo players]
10. Elevator
3. Waterfall
2. Sun
6. Orbits (3 times)
16. Stick grind (3 seconds)
20. Grind Pass
8. Flea Bounce/Trampoline Over Head (5 times)
9. Chinese suicide
12. Cat's cradle
13. Around the arm (3 times)
14. Around the leg (3 times)
24. Suicide
21. Magic Knot/Spaghetti  
7. Backside
19. Neck trampoline (4 bounces)
11. Behind the back catch [any requirement to exit?]
29. Duicide
22. Propeller
23 Coffee grinder (3 grinds) [nasty on shorter sticks]
30. Infinite Suicide (3 reps)
25. Loop and hook whip catch
17. Whip catch
27. Behind the back whip catch
18. Umbrella (3 reps - 1 rep is both directions)
26. X-Grind [cos I cant do it a bit equipment governed as well]
28. Figure-8 around both arms (3 reps - 1 rep is around both arms)

I agree with Norbi that bearing yoyo's would be an unfair advantage in the whip off.
I would sugest a game of H.O.R.S.E with the tied copetitors taking turns to set the trick, chance for some chicanery and variety here.

I would say that I would like to see some more current moves that people might have picked up from the internet/video/convention scene such as slowicides, (low to mid) genocides/mini g's (instead of that effing x grind) and also a bit less repition (grind/grind pass, trapeze/double, whip/loop and hook whip)

Good luck with the Diabolo part and the whole of the event, let us know how it went.

[stupendous]

Thanks Sean!  I appreciate your feed bcak on the list order.  

I encourage others to give me ideas about what tricks would be good on a trick list for begginers or advanced players.

[Matt_]

HORSE, now that is a great idea =D> i'd definitely do that anytime.

[Chiok]

I'll go with the revised ladder, a lil fiddly could be handy, but then it would almost have to be taken to a vote as to the order as different people are better at different things (infinite suicides and all manner or whip catches are fine, but I suck at just catching it on the darkside or the dreaded "in the face neck trampoline").

As for a game of H.O.R.S.E or whatever 5 letter word you want, that seems like a good idea.  A sort of showdown, or stand-off or walk-off (for those in the catwalk fashion industry).  One person does a trick (just one trick, no combos or fanciness) and the other matches and extends or does a new trick.

But number of whip catches, that could get interesting.  And about the different diabolos, I guess if people wanted to use a bearing diabolo, they'd bring one, and if you didn't have one, then unfortunate.  So many different yoyos out there, can't just specify one type.  Guess you'd have to come packing a whole variety of diabolos and sticks.

I'd like to see what people would suggest for a 2D trick ladder, 20-25 moves.  I'd like to see how many I could (or more to the point, probably couldn't) do.  Suggestions?

Chiok
(Maybe i should change my screen name to just Chiok, but I don't wanna lose all my post counts...)

[norbi]

1. rocket start (into high or low)
2. pop one higher (from low shuffle)
3. 4 consecutive high throws
4. backwrap
5. frontwrap
6. stopover
7. both side stop over (same time, one diab on each side)
8. stick grind for 3 second
9. any sun
10. regular suicide
11. leg stall (any entrance or exit)
12. arm stall (any entrance or exit)
13. double arm stall
14. backwrap every diabolo for 6 backwraps
15. sprinkler for 3 seconds
16. vortex
17. fan for 3 cycles (1 cycle is a complete revolution)
18. 1 high and sun underneath, from high or low (SS:31/411)
19. 2up pirouette
20. vortex to suicide (sorry, not sure of an actual name of that trick)
21. anti-suicide
22. double sprinkler to suicide (any length of time, aslong as it definately entered the double before the suicide)
23. mini columns for 5 columns
24. ping pong for 5 bounces
25. 2up hi-lo pirouette in high or low (SS: 420/5300)

tie-breaker - longest held sprinkler.


That was HARD! Thinking of tricks is difficult enough. Putting them in any kind of order is even harder. There was another 4 tricks, but i thought 29 was too many, so then working out which 4 to get rid of was hard aswell!

Everyone is welcome to chop and change.
Notice how i left out the mini-geno, that was a hard decision, but i dont think its really so easy to learn for a trick ladder.

Norbi
--------------------------------
http://www.norbithejuggler.co.uk
norbi@norbithejuggler.co.uk

p.s. I know i will get stick for putting a pirouette as the ultimate trick, but hey, atleast i didnt call it a 360  

[Chiok]

1. rocket start (into high or low)
2. pop one higher (from low shuffle)
4. backwrap
5. frontwrap
6. stopover
7. both side stop over (same time, one diab on each side)
8. stick grind for 3 second
9. any sun
10. regular suicide
11. leg stall (any entrance or exit)
12. arm stall (any entrance or exit)
15. sprinkler for 3 seconds
17. fan for 3 cycles (1 cycle is a complete revolution)
16. vortex
13. double arm stall
21. anti-suicide
18. 1 high and sun underneath, from high or low (SS:31/411)
19. 2up pirouette
14. backwrap every diabolo for 6 backwraps - (never actually managed to do it even once)
20. vortex to suicide (sorry, not sure of an actual name of that trick)
3. 4 consecutive high throws - (my high patterns are awful)
22. double sprinkler to suicide (any length of time, aslong as it definately entered the double before the suicide) - (I have trouble with doubles)
23. mini columns for 5 columns
24. ping pong for 5 bounces
25. 2up hi-lo pirouette in high or low (SS: 420/5300)

tie-breaker - longest held sprinkler.

This would be my chop and change, anything after the 2up pirouette is currently beyond me with any consistency.  I might include an S-fan in there (any entry and exit) maybe 2 in one hand as well.  Although good work on the list, from looking at it, it does appear to include the basics of 2D and some things to work towards to bridge that beginner - intermediate gap.  Just makes me think how much I suck at 2 really.  Good stuff!

Chiok
(what you doing in Brighton?  Was hoping to meet you at BrJC.  I hear the Oddballs in Brighton kicks ass).

[norbi]

interesting you put a 2up pirouette as easier than 2 high, crazy  
I'm not in Brighton anymore, i'm back near Exeter, Brighton wasn't working out.
Oddballs is pretty good i guess, nothing amazing, and hardly any room to juggle.

[GbH]

26. X-Grind [cos I cant do it a bit equipment governed as well]

[/quote

Hmm, funny you should mention that.  When I originally replied to Stu, I said pretty much the same thing.  A strange choice, in my opinion.  


Norbi, I really like your list.  But what's it actually for, though?  Maybe there should be an informal trick ladder contest at Bristol (either/both lists), just to prove how easy () it actually is.  Personally, I reckon I'd be more likely to get through the 2d list than the 1d version.  For me, stuff like whips, duicides, genocides and X Grinds (particularly X-Grinds!) are more likely to mess up when under pressure than most of the 2d stuff.  (remember, you only get one shot at each trick - if you screw up, that's the end of it.  You're out.  No second chances!).  The high/low pirouette's a bit nasty, though being at the end of the list, I suppose that's fair
enough.

[Hoop]

I think this will turn out well.  I do agree with the comments on the difficulty level and I understand the counterpoints.  For those that think it is too easy, what can you suggest to Stu about the last 4 to 5 tricks that might make the difficulty curve more steep there?  What tricks might weed out the absolute novice without being equipment governed. (X-grind is quite a pain)  With the last few tricks being more difficult, not everyone will complete the ladder, resulting in less tie breakers.  I like the idea of having structure to the learning order of tricks and "levels" just as in the yoyo scene.  I have been using something similar to this to help the kids I teach have a sense of accomplishment, although I don't have quite as many tricks in the first level.

[norbi]

oh man, i wish i could get my (poor) lazy self to Bristol.

I havnt actually tried going through that ladder yet, chances are i'd mess up on a suprising amount.

[Luke Burrage]

#1  This is not a U.S. NATIONAL Diabolo Contest.  It is a Diabolo Trick Ladder Exhibition.  Winners of each division will win a metal or prize, but may not claim a National Tilte.

The Diabolo Trick Exhibition will be held in the park in Chico, California during the National Yo-Yo Contest Sat. Oct. 1, 2005.  http://www.nationalyoyo.org/contest/contest2005/index.htm  The Diabolo Trick Exhibition will have its own platform, and the exhibition will begin at 10:00am.

STU

I didn't mean to be negative about the competition, and now you have clarified some points I'm sure it will go down very well and be a success.

I was under the impression that this was, while not a "national" diabolo contest, it was meant to represent some kind of high level of diabolo skill in the winner. As it stands, a very new diabolo player could win, while far, far, far, far more skillful diabolists would not even be able to show what they could do.

Of course, that is exactly what you want, but the way you posted it to a diabolo forum read by (arguably) some of the best diabolists in the known world seemed, well, a bit strange. The list of tricks seems like it is lifted from Donald Grant's "My first diabolo" book... he probably invented most of them.

I think you should make it clear that this is actually a beginners or intermediate level ONE diabolo competition. And I think you should specify that the diabolo should be bearingless in the event of a tie. To say "If you want to win a tie break, bring a bearing diabolo" is all well and good, but in my 15 years of diabolo I have NEVER seen one for sale. Maybe mail order is an option, but not with 4 weeks to go, and not just for one competition.


Have fun with it though, and I'd love to read up on the results and how it went.



I think you should make it clear to

[Boxthor]

(remember, you only get one shot at each trick - if you screw up, that's the end of it.  You're out.  No second chances!).

As with all yo-yo ladder contests, you get one attempt per trick, and are knocked out after your second failed attempt. Second chance =P

from what i've been shown (lots of videos and things) is that the faster you can do the tricks, the more you win. on diabolo, it's more about finesse (no pun intended) and an interesting routine. i watched a lot of videos from Japan nationals (yoyo) and to me, the coolest routines didnt win. the guys that just did a ton of crap that i couldnt see really fast won. but with diabolo, you have videos like Arjan's latest ones with a lot of slow yet complex and smooth combos that flow.

It's the nature of the yo-yo compared to the diabolo. Based solely on the laws of physics, intertia and force and whatnot, a yo-yo has the ability to move much faster than any diabolo can.

Again with the nature of the yo-yo, the "finesse" used is a LOT more subtle. Yo-yos use a much smaller "plane of usage" (I don't know what to call it) than diabolos, but can be much more complex in their said field.

As for yo-yo competitions, it's based on how they're judged. You get 3 minutes to do tricks. You get positive points for tricks, and negative points for messing tricks up. Going fast = ability to do more tricks = ability to get more points. Sure they may be going fast, but players who win are also doing some of the hardest tricks with some of the fewest mistakes. Those with "cool" routines are fun to watch, and I prefer to watch them, but I recognize that as "cool" as they are, they didn't do as good a job on the judging scale as the people who did win. (Most notably Alex Berenguel, Kentaro Kimura, Red, Lee Dae Yeol, and AJ Kirk from YoYo Worlds 05)

It'd be like comparing a diabolo routine with a crazy innovative (yet easy) string climb combo with one of complex 2 and 3 Diabolo tricks in a technical grading scale.


Off of the stage, yo-yo players have quite different styles. Without the judging, they can be slower, and smoother, with a lot more "finesse"
A GREAT example of this is in a clip video of Yuuki Spencer's tricks made by a yoyo player:

http://www.yoyonation.com/videos/Yuuki%20=%20God.wmv

Notice how different his style is on stage and off stage. Watching just competition videos in yo-yo is just like watching just competition videos in diabolo. You'll miss out on a lot.

Also see the difference between Mickey's On-stage and Off-stage style:

Off Stage:
http://www.yo-yo.org/bu-ko/video/bk_MickeyHouse2.mpeg

On Stage:   (Shot by me =D)
http://yoyomovie.dip.jp/YET/2005WORLD/1A/Worlds05-1A-HiroyukiSuzuki.mpg

To say "If you want to win a tie break, bring a bearing diabolo" is all well and good, but in my 15 years of diabolo I have NEVER seen one for sale. Maybe mail order is an option, but not with 4 weeks to go, and not just for one competition.

Personally I didn't agree with the tie break for the same reason. Well anyway, I'm sure they'll have spare diabolos on hand.

Also, Spintastics is a very yo-yo orientated company, and I'm pretty sure spinabolos will be on sale at Nationals, so there you go.

[stupendous]

Thanks Hoop for your support!

Of course, that is exactly what you want, but the way you posted it to a diabolo forum read by (arguably) some of the best diabolists in the known world seemed, well, a bit strange. The list of tricks seems like it is lifted from Donald Grant's "My first diabolo" book... he probably invented most of them.

This is an excellent point!  People must have read this and said "What?"  Sorry about that!  I am an experienced yo-yoer, but new to the diabolo scene.  Luke, you make a great point.  I should have been more clear that this is a beginner/intermediate competition.  Thanks!


I love the 2D trick lists that were made (can I steal them )

[stupendous]

Looking back I should have said this in the beginning:  This is the first year we are trying a diabolo ladder at a yo-yo contest.  The trick list and rules are set for this year.  But...

Can someone try to put together a 1 diabolo trick list for intermediate or advanced players?

Or can someone try to add onto my list so that it is more advanced in the end?

THANKS!

[norbi]

Can someone try to put together a 1 diabolo trick list for intermediate or advanced players?

Hmmm, i think intermediate probably. But when it starts getting advanced, a lot of people do their own thing, and i'd say its rare to find a bunch of advanced tricks that everyone does. Ok, so you want it so some people cant do it, but i'd say you also want a list the most people have a chance at getting through if the pressure was off. But after learning the basics i think styles of play come into...play. French style, Japanese style, American? style, and now EuroJap (beautifully demonstrated by Saito) So... well hopefully you know what i'm trying to say, because im finding it realy hard.


But on the other hand, i'd love for someone to make a list so i can try it out, who's up for it?


And yeah sure, steal my 2d ladder, tell me how it goes if you use it.

[norbi]

Interesting that no-one (not even me) corrected me on this

"17. fan for 3 cycles (1 cycle is a complete revolution)"

Surely i should have just put

"17. fan for 3 complete revolutions"


Just a thought.

[Hoop]

Norbi,  very subtle there " American? style!"

[norbi]

Well i think there is such thing, its basically what Matt Hall does... Loads of big tricks, no combinations, a lot of agression and getting far too mad when it doesnt go right  You know i love ya man.

I actually forgot British style from that list - really stupid things (Donald is most prone to this, but other brits have their fair share of tricks in this genre [even me])

[Hoop]

Yeah, I guess Matt Hall is the definition of American Diabolo.  I'm far too removed from the American diabolo scene.  Who else is there?