Suicide Combos: Terminology

[Icebox]

Alright, here goes.

Because of the lengthy descriptions of the tricks in the topic below, it would seem that diabolo.ca is in need of streamlining for its suicide/minigenocide terminology.

http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=9717.msg106237;topicseen#new

The problem seems to arise when people aren't clear about how they reference the sticks. Some people reference the sticks based upon what hand they started in, others where the sticks are at a certain point in the trick.

There are a couple solutions that seem obvious to me at the onset:
- Pick which method of the above should become standardized
- Use a different set of terminology, i.e. color code the sticks, actually name the sticks... something other than left/right

Another problem is that there is no way of knowing what kind of wrap people are talking about without elaboration. Based upon what I've seen on this forum, the 'oldschool' diaboloists refer to wraps as either frontwrap or backwrap. The problem with this is that a frontwrap with a certain hand is the same as the backwrap on the other hand, and when said diaboloist doesn't specify which hand is doing the wrapping, readers don't/cannot picture the trick in the same way. 'New school' diaboloists (myself included) do the (sort of) opposite by referring to left wrap or right wrap, without specifying which side of the string the wrap is occurring.

These differing terminologies then have trouble transferring over to backsides, where a right backwrap/left frontwrap is the same as a left backside, and a left backwrap/right frontwrap is a right backside. When diaboloists use the term 'backside' without saying which backside it is, or when they say 'the stick wraps around the axle' without saying what side of the string it is passing, it inhibits everyone involved in the process.

I understand that this is just me ranting about a topic, but it could be streamlined if everyone could decide how they were going to talk about these tricks. I'm interested to see what everyone else has to say on this topic and if they've noticed the same things I have.

[maxmaestro]

in a rush so cant elaborate now. but that sounds good. i have noticed that when a trick is explaned in words people have different ways and it does confuse me. so ya... nice idea

max

[Sam 1060]

Really Like the idea, I have never been able to understand where the string is and isn't wrapped.

What are you referring to when u say a back side because I thought, a back side is when the string has a half twist in it. Is that right

You also said that a right front wrap/left back wrap is a left backside can u explain how?  if I am not wrong any wrap leaves your string looped around the axel. where as in a back side your string is half twisted

[Marko]

Haha, I know exactly how you feel buddy. I believe I have had my fair share of similar rants in the past. There are  so many problems with naming and using terms. It's massively difficult if not impossible to get everybody to use same naming systems and terms for diabolo.  I can imagine the problems people will have when somebody is trying to explain a integral trick in text form. There are just way too many factors in it that people don't even realize. Such as how to wrap, which stick goes where, do the sticks change hands and even how do you grab the string and what you do with it.

I kinda hate the fact that I always seem to just give people links to older topics. Anyhow here they come:

Couple years ago I was explaining wraps and how to name them so that it's understandable. Basically I use 3 part names for both wraps and sides. First part defining the hand, second defining if it's front or back and third for specifying if it's a wrap or side. So names would be such as right frontwrap, left backside, right frontside etc.... More detailed info with pics, videos and animations from here: http://www.kumiankka.com/wrap/

I remember us talking about wraps also way back in 2008.... oh here it is: http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=5822.msg70082#msg70082
Good points there as well.  Something about naming tricks here: http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=4537.msg55212#msg55212

Quite often people seem to much rather focus on throwing diabolo and having fun. Usually guys here just don't care that much about terminology. Good to see a proper rant once in a while.

[Marko]

Sam 1060 if you look a wrap from below the diabolo you can see that (from that point of view) it's actually a backside. More info with pictures here: http://www.kumiankka.com/wrap/index.php?sivu=namingthewraps&toolbar=toolbar-prevnext-wraps1&ohjeet=ohje-quickwrap

[Sam 1060]

thanks ill take a look now 

thanks great webpage easy to understand and clever Q and A game thanks.

[Icebox]

What are you referring to when u say a back side because I thought, a back side is when the string has a half twist in it. Is that right

You also said that a right front wrap/left back wrap is a left backside can u explain how?  if I am not wrong any wrap leaves your string looped around the axel. where as in a back side your string is half twisted

You're right, what I'm referring to is when somebody is doing slowcide minigenocides. Let's say that the stick you have in your left hand is green and the one in the right is red. If you have a right backwrap on the diabolo, let go of the green stick, and as that is happening pass the red stick to your left hand, catch the green stick with your right hand, you will end up in a left backside, thus drawing a 'balance' between right backwraps and left backsides, and left backwraps and right backsides. I'll try and make a video illustrating this point at some time, hopefully in the near future.

Marko's right too.

Sam 1060 if you look a wrap from below the diabolo you can see that (from that point of view) it's actually a backside.

If you imagine the sticks and string forming a straight line with the diabolo in the middle, let's say with a left backwrap, when you rotate the sticks 180 degrees around the diabolo you end up in a right backside.

[Icebox]

even how do you grab the string and what you do with it.

I can't believe I forgot to talk about that too. That seems to be more of a problem when you're trying to teach people tricks in real life. There's so little time to explain the trick when it's happening and whoever I'm trying to teach doesn't realize that I'm grabbing the string.

This could be even more problematic. The trick (where the 'righthand' stick is suiciding and the left stick rewraps the diabolo) I was explaining in the originally linked topic (this one: http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=9717.msg106237;topicseen#new) changes the segment you grab from the 'left' segment to the 'right' segment because of the way the trick works.

[Sam 1060]

Intergrel, am I right that this the word used to cover the hole group of suicide tricks

[haosone]

Integral is the correct word not every suicide is an integral hmmm... i wonder if there is a definition of integrals i gues the point can be with holding a string instead of one or both sticks... I'm kinda new in this topic but I'm sure you can find some informations on this forum like I'm going to do because it's a bit stupid to learning some things and don't have basic knowledge

http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=64

[Mediaboy13]

Integral is the correct word not every suicide is an integral hmmm... i wonder if there is a definition of integrals i gues the point can be with holding a string instead of one or both sticks... I'm kinda new in this topic but I'm sure you can find some informations on this forum like I'm going to do because it's a bit stupid to learning some things and don't have basic knowledge

http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=64

Yes an integral is holding the string and not the sticks (one of the easiest being Thomicide, on of the hardest Butterfly), some people also consider Mini-Genodcides and Bloody Clowns integrals  .
Here are 3 of the MANY definitions I found for the word "integral":
adjective /ˈintigrəl/  /inˈteg-/ 

1.Necessary to make a whole complete; essential or fundamental
- games are an integral part of the school's curriculum
- systematic training should be integral to library management

2.Included as part of the whole rather than supplied separately
- the unit comes complete with integral pump and heater

3.Having or containing all parts that are necessary to be complete
- the first integral recording of the ten Mahler symphonies

-Alex