3d instants

[-Leo-]

I couldn't find a thread to post this on (I can remember a while backwhenthere was a thred on people who learn three diabs before they get good at 2 or 1 but I can't find it) so I hope this deserves a new topic. I am probably no where near the stage of learning 3 diabs but when is the right time to start? Is it different for everyone? Should it be when you can do a certain trick?This is just to clear this up for me and maybe some other people.

[frank0072]

I couldn't find a thread to post this on (I can remember a while backwhenthere was a thred on people who learn three diabs before they get good at 2 or 1 but I can't find it) so I hope this deserves a new topic. I am probably no where near the stage of learning 3 diabs but when is the right time to start? Is it different for everyone? Should it be when you can do a certain trick?This is just to clear this up for me and maybe some other people.

That question is exactly what I have been thinking of the last time. I think you have to do atleast bw every pass and 2D high might be very important aswell. I think that, if you can do that almost with your eyes closed, you're ready for 3D.

So I am not really ready for 3 (I really want to buy an orange diabolo, but I have to have a good reason...)

[Bertrand]

Strange question.

When you want...

[Bazz]

Hi Y'all,
I don't play with 3, but from my experience you will never know if you are ready for 3 until you try it. you will probably find being able to do 2 in one hand very helpful if you want to try a wrap start with 3, likewise being able to do 2 high will be very helpful for a thrown start.

Check out the 3D starts on Diabology and also read the brilliant books by Donald Grant ( Diabolo: 3 "Two Hot to Handle") includes a section on starting with 3D.

The same thing goes with starting out on 2D most people are doing basic 2D tricks before they have a lot of the harder 1D stuff down.

The best thing is to just have a go, see what goes wrong and try again.
as for buying a new Diabolo why do you need a reason, just bbuy it because you want it

I hope this helps,
I may even go and have a go myself
Take care,
Barry

[Dracodragon]

Yes, it is always good to give things a shot. I kinda started 2 and 3 diabolos pretty early. 2 pretty much after i got some basic 1d tricks. I started 3 pretty early too, and Ive gotten better at 1,2, and 3 in less than a year of diaboling(I havent even been diaboloing for a year btw, thanks hall sensei for helping me out with lots of stuff) but anyways, learn any trick whenever you want, and remember there is no easy way on learning 3 diabolos, so if you want to learn it you are gonna have to go through lots of suffering, anger, etc.

[Matt]

Hi everyone,

For the longest time, I didn't read this thread, but now that I'm on winter break, I found the time to read it.  Very interesting thoughts.....

For the record, my personal best with 3 high is 50+.  I've yet to perform it in a show, but that is my goal.  I figure another year or so.....until that time, I'll have to content myself with having a really good 1 and 2 diabolo act.  The addition of excalibur to my routine has definitely helped in this regard--I've only been doing that a year, but I still have fun with it and I think audiences enjoy that part.  

3 diabolo low?  No way.  I've always figured that I'd get 3 high really solid and then try to bring it down.  I like the way that looks more than the wrap starts.  

I envy folks who can do stuff I can't do (4 club flats or 5 singles, 7 ball 5-ups, David's 4 box tricks, 3 diabolos, etc...), but I try not to trip on it.  I'm sure you all know the old psychologist joke:  What's the easiest way to make yourself happy?  Look at all the people around you who have it worse than you.  What's the easiest way to make yourself depressed?   Look at all the people around you who have it better than you.  

I make a similar joke sometimes when people kid me about getting owned at WJF and such:  The only thing that keeps me from slitting my wrists when I watch the MFP or Yabe is that I can own them with balls, clubs, bounce, boxes (Tony's another matter, and Yabe is quite good all-around).  Keep in mind that I'm joking here--I actually think that kind of thinking is superficial and ultimately does more harm than good--I avoid it as much as possible.  

What I really want to do is just focus on what I can do, work towards what I want to do, and look to other jugglers for inspiration and support.  That's why I think this forum is the best thing on the net, even more so than rec.juggling.  We inspire and support each other.  I love it.  

Peace,

Matt

[frank0072]

Well, have read the whole thread aswell now. I think Jacob has a really good point with his opening post. The importance of a good basis is what drives me mostly too.

I can't do a proper genocide yet, I can only do a minigenocide in the open air, not even inside. Further I can do a lot of tricks with 1D, but no smooth combo's, just stand-alone (if I can say it like that, hope you understand).

With 2D I started after about 2 months serious full-time 1D, and now I can do a sprinkler, suicide out, doublesprinkler (very lame), crossedstick sun, left suns (like Martijn did in his 'difference-vid' last week) and a suicide. That's about it.

I almost know for certain that I am the best diaboloist in my town, because it is such an odd thing to do as a performing art. Not many people know you can even do more then 1D, and the 'can-you-throw-it- really-high-factor' is really big. Only it doesn't satisfy me. I want to be better, I want to be able to perform a sprinkler to suicide with my eyes closed for example.

Back on topic this means that I see myself as a n00b, considered to what you all do here, considered to what the MFP does. To me diabolo means a lot, I want it to be respected as an art, and not as a 'silly-beach-thingie'. That's where my question comes from, when to start with 3. I don't want to rush into anything, and I want to learn things steady and stable.

I really hope you all get my point. I hope someone will recognize something too, and that I am not alone in my opinion here...

[Martijn]

I think you need to cover the biggest part of the whole basis of 2 diabolo's (almost everything on Circusplanet.net) before you can seriously consider to start with 3d (low). You also need a good basis with 1 diabolo before you start with 2 diabolos, in my opinion.

I just don't see why people would start with 3 right after they learned 2d...

[frank0072]

I think you need to cover the biggest part of the whole basis of 2 diabolo's (almost everything on Circusplanet.net) before you can seriously consider to start with 3d (low). You also need a good basis with 1 diabolo before you start with 2 diabolos, in my opinion.

I just don't see why people would start with 3 right after they learned 2d...

Yes, but what is 'a good basis' with 1D?

[Martijn]

You just feel it when it's right For example, a lot of 2d tricks are based on 1d tricks (trapezes, orbits, suns, suicides).

[Chiok]

You just feel it when it's right For example, a lot of 2d tricks are based on 1d tricks (trapezes, orbits, suns, suicides).

Yep, it's a feel thing.  I also believe it is either a patience thing, or a determination thing.  I struggled with 2 for well over a year and have found myself become progressively better (some different diabolos and sticks may have attributed to this).  But I kind of skimmed over the 1D stuff beyond genocides and knot combos.  Although I've found that the struggle with 2D has improved my 1D as taking away that other diabolo makes things easier (at least in my mind).  And the vertax stuff has been improving too (though lack of practise space isn't helping).

I've tried 3 before, but only with either mismatched diabolos or 3 Henrys Beach.  I know I'm a way away for getting anything resembling a shuffle but it's nice to try just to see if you can yet, and it's a break from the usual practise routine.  You can get fanatical about it too and just try endlessly without the foundation, but this is where the determination comes in so you don't give up.

And I agree with Mr. Hall (in a fun way of course) in that although people are better than me, I'm possibly better than them in some way.  It's arrogant, but it's a small comfort to know your bouncing and engineering skills are better than theirs.

Respectfully submitted as always,
Chiok

[Pete]

As i said earlier, i started learning 2d far too quickly and did the same with 3d. It must have taken me almost a year to learn 2d which is alot slower than most people get it now. It took me another year to learn 3. But i started trying because that what i wanted to do. It really is up to you. But i always thought, the quicker you start trying the sooner you will succeed.

Its up to you, do what you want.

Practice.

[frank0072]

As i said earlier, i started learning 2d far too quickly and did the same with 3d. It must have taken me almost a year to learn 2d which is alot slower than most people get it now. It took me another year to learn 3. But i started trying because that what i wanted to do. It really is up to you. But i always thought, the quicker you start trying the sooner you will succeed.

Its up to you, do what you want.

Practice.

Yes, I can see your point. But what my exact question is: "What is the good basis to move on from 1D to 2D?".

And offcourse for 3D the same question.

For example: should someone be able to do genocides to infitive suicides and triple sprinklers to suicide? Or is a mini-genocide and a normal sprinkler enough.

What makes you a pro, when are you medium skilled and when are you a rookie? What tricks make you 'pro', etc.

I hope you understand my questions. I am really trying to figure out in what segment I belong. I want to be able to compare myself to others, and see what I am capable of. I think there should be some kind of ranking, just like you have in computer games .

So far for my control-minded-thoughts.

[fadge]

in reference to the 'ranking' business i dont think it can be related to certain tricks you can do, i think it is to do with the way you can link them together. for example i have been learning tricks i see on 'pro'videos, but i am nowhere close to pro. I have trouble linking tricks and making them all flow,i believe you are only pro when u can have seemless runs and jus make them up. much like how people improvise on guitar, then i think it comes down to personal methods too. Some people can just pick things up quicker than others and have a natural grasp of certain aspects more than others.

An example of this is that my mate picked up infinate suicides almost straight away and im still slaving away trying to get them too work,but i can do mini-genocides better than him,while he is still learning them,even tho we are of the same ability and been practicing for the same length of time.

As for three, i dont think you need to be able to do any tricks to start,just need the enthusiasm to keep dropping two after speeding them up,again and again and again. but i guess corrections and speeding up the diabolos are quite important,or 2dhigh. seeing as these are more relevant too 3d than any tricks are.

Sorry for wasting you time in this long post, but these are my views on this anyway.

fadge

[J_J777]

If you look at someone and look at his basics, like how long it takes for him to accelerate all his diabolos and corrects it can really show his degree of expertise because a pro doing orbits can obviously get more speed quicker than someone who just learnt how.

*wow I just sounded old....  you don't need to know any tricks really for 1 to 2 except for orbits or chinese accelerations.  from 2 to 3 backwrap must be solid, maybe chinese acceleration, and 2 in one hand...  like tahia, he has no clue what he is doing with one   but he is a beast on 2 and 3.  so if you can speed up the diabolo easily then go for it but people usually find more success with tricks that only take the number of diabolos you can do (3 diabolos HATES ME!!!!!!!! )

[Martijn]

No, I don't agree with that. Just being able to speed up with 2d isn't enough. You need to have FULL controll of 2 diabolos. You'll learn this by minicolumns, ping pong, anti-shuffle and knotstealing mainly. These tricks put your diabolos in all kinds of different places, and  you have to be able to know how to catch them, where to put them, and how to recover if you made a mistake. I think that is what controlling 2 diabs is about.

Ofcourse, you can learn 2 or 3 before all of that (cause what you need basicly is acceleration, correcting, 2d in one hand and a wrapstart), but my advice is to just relax, and focus a bit more on lower numbers. I think that will speed up your progress with 3 diabs.

That was the whole point Jacob wanted to make, a good basis is required. But go ahead and do whatever you want... just my 2 cents

[Chiok]

I mean no offense to anybody, but there's this small niggling feeling in the back of my mind that thinks "Can't have people become better than me, faster than me again".  I know I have this feeling, I'm not usually a competitive guy, but I hate lacking ability even when the effort is there.

I'm not saying anyone is guilty of this, but perhaps saying you should focus more on your one and two before going to 3 is kind of a way of saying, "don't try it and suddenly become good".  I guess it's a kind of jealousy, I know I feel it watching all these toss juggling videos of people that have been juggling less than a year (and there are many bitter people out there).

Of course it is very sound advice to build a solid foundation like Martijn and Jacob have stated because you'll spend less time struggling with more things if you have the experience with less things.  As you practise, you brain generates the links required to track and follow things.  After time, you'll have no problem.  E.g starting 5 balls is difficult, because there can be 4 objects in the air where there was only 1 with 3 balls.  Practise lots and you'll be able to follow and identify 5 no problem.  When you try 7, it'll feel the same like jumping from 3 to 5 because you have a 5 object mind now.

So yeah, don't get good too quickly, or we'll all resent you for your natural abilities that we have to train for     We all age at the same rate, it's just what you do with the time that's important.

Chiok
(I feel this thread is causing people to write an awful lot in posts...)

[Martijn]

Hey Chiok, I don't know if you wrote that due to my post? but I just wanted to say that that's not my intention. I try to provide people good information and advice, and they can do with it whatever they want. It's impossible to keep everyone from getting good there are so many people who are better than me, it's a useless goal.

[Dracodragon]

I agree Choik. It takes time for your brain to be able to notice and control the patterns of many things. When I first started 3, I had no idea how to track less control the 3 diabolo shuffle. Now my mind has gotten more used to it, and I am able to do a 3 shuffle for on average 15 ott(its getting better each time I run a shuffle though with the acception of mistakes on some shuffles). But some great advice for learning anything new is to watch someone else do it to see how it might look, never give up when practicing it, and over time you should get it.

[Pete]

But why would you want to rush onto 3d straight away anyway. I found i was very distracted by learning other tricks with 1 and 2 while i was learning 3.
There are loots of things worth putting some serious time and effort into before even thinking about 3d.

As for the ranking thing. There's practically no way of applying different people different ranks and taking that to prove who is better. It all depends what you put your time into. e.g. I can do several tricks with 3 low but JiBe can only just do a three low shuffle but JiBe has absolutely mind blowing 3 high skils. Who is the better diabolist?
This is just an example (in fact its a bad one, I agree with all those who think that JiBe is clearly the better diabolist) But it all depends what you put your time into. I put my time into 3 low JiBe put his time into 3 high. Tony can do 4 up pirouettes and 4d suns but can hardly pull a sun with 3 low. Ryo yabe can sun forever but cant do a 4up pirouette.

Unfortunately there is no unit of skill.

As for being pro. Pro is an abreviation of professional. To be a professional diabolist, diabolo has to be your profession (job).
Correct me if i'm wrong.