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Diabolo.ca Forums => Community & Events => Diabolo.ca Collaboration Video => Topic started by: Wis on November 21, 2016, 08:39:51 AM

Title: POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on November 21, 2016, 08:39:51 AM
TO SEE THE ORIGIN OF THIS DISCUSSION GO TO THIS THREAD
http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=12861.msg119143#msg119143

Woa boy, so much emotion. I like that. Let us try to make good use of it.

So this year there was a very high level when selecting tricks, I feel I almost was left out, and the collaboration is amazing to watch.
In 2012 there was also an amazing to watch one, and there was not such strong feeling of people cut out, but there was some.
The ones from previous years had a high rate of repetition of tricks, and I do not watch them so much, personally.

What do we want, a video of all the people around the world that like diabolo.ca, or a video of the best tricks? We want a mostly see one or 2 times video? Or a this video is insane and I want to watch it many times

We never put rules, the editor decides on his own. But we can try to change that. I see the following options, which can be combined
1 - We accept that as it happened this year is fair. We want a collab of best tricks, and people need to fight to be included
2 - We limit the maximum number of tricks per person
3 - We make a longer video which does not exclude anybody except for camera quality
4 - We make two long videos where Great tricks and average tricks are mixed so to make it watchable
5 - We make two videos, one of "Best tricks" and one of "All together". We can even have two separate editors, where the most experienced one edits the Best tricks part. If we do it this way the best tricks part could be 5/6 minutes, making it watchable for non diabolo people.

My favorites are 2 and 5.

But I want to say an additional thing. To all those people complaining that they are not in the diabolo.ca collaboration video, but have never posted a single thing in diabolo.ca (which is not the case of anybody in this thread)... maybe you can do something more to have the community feeling that you seem to miss in the video.

Please, comment :)
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: 7531 on November 21, 2016, 09:10:20 AM
2,3 and 5 would be a good option
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Dominik on November 21, 2016, 09:22:53 AM

What do we want, a video of all the people around the world that like diabolo.ca, or a video of the best tricks? We want a mostly see one or 2 times video? Or a this video is insane and I want to watch it many times

Please, comment :)

Well, basically there are two major options. The first one is to make good advertisment for the forum, which reflects the collab of this year. The second one is to show all the different diabolists around the world (regardless their skill), and to me this is what a collaboration video is actually about.

Now to your propositions:

1. As you can see, it doesn't seem to be the right way, since too many people are unhappy about it.

2. Definitely a good idea. I mean several people this year sent in like 3 or 4 clips at the exact same location...

3. How a real collab should be like imo.

4 and 5 are not a good idea, since everyone would watch the video with the higher skill level, as you stated correctly.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: SebiHausi on November 21, 2016, 10:23:43 AM
As the red bull pao moderator would say: NICE!
You did an amazing job with this video Clément.
I understand both perspectives of the critics above and believe that this is a difficult subject. I understand that you wanted to make a video with only amazing tricks which will be remembered and watched a bunch of times as Wis has already said. But on the other side I would feel a bit angry too if I was left out after making the effort to film and submit something.
I propose a 6th solution:
2 parts of the collab where the first one is with the most amazing tricks like the one you did and another one with the rest of the submissions to make sure the community spirit is not broken and it is not just about who has got most skill!
You could actually still make that second part if you have the time and motivation for it :). I mean I won't and I can't force you to do anything but I believe it would be a nice gesture. Alternativley maybe somebody else could do it?
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Pieter on November 21, 2016, 11:12:22 AM
Do we actually want a video that doesn’t exclude anyone except for camera quality? I just ask because we’re now discussing the collab’s fundaments. I think this is some interesting material we have to think about as a community, certainly because this is about how we, the diabolo.ca community, represent ourselves to the world in a video each year.
For me the collab is a video we present to the world showing what we are doing with diabolo all around the world.
If we say: ‘anyone who sends a clip in HD will be in the video’, we have to think that through. I don’t know how many members diabolo.ca has, but if every member sends a clip this will be a hell of a long video… of course this will never occur, but with the ‘no excluding-rule’ this is what the video will and should be.
I don’t think the collab should be a video that is just presenting people who do diabolo, I think it has to be a video about diabolo and people who can do “original”, “unique” things with a diabolo. In my opinion this should be the aim of the collaboration: showing the world what we, the diabolo community, can do with a diabolo.
And with this purpose in mind I think it is reasonable to select clips. And don’t get me wrong I don’t say it has to be the top of the best diabolo people around the world, the clip has to be original and unique and this doesn’t have to do with technical skills. People who can do an infinite suicide as their best trick will not be selected if they film this in their backyard (sorry but what does that bring to the video/community/the world? we have seen that thousands of times, it's just not representing diabolo as it is today) BUT if you do this trick on the top of your house with a spectacular sunset behind you and fighting a bear in the mean time, this could be a very interesting clip to include. So in my opinion skills can’t be a problem for not being in the video, but if you’re not skilled there has to be something else that makes it worth to include your clip.
I think it doesn’t have to be too easy to be in the collab (just ‘doing diabolo’ isn’t enough), we have to put a bit of effort in it. Those who are really skilled can do a beasty move in their backyard and be in the video because of their skills (and their effort was in the hours/years of practice it took to manage this beasty move). Those who don’t have these skills will have to put effort in something else: amazing location, creativity, humour, etc.
So the collab has to be about the best clips (not about the best diabolo players), and I think it is necessary to ‘select’ them.

Ok, so that was my opinion about it, I would like to hear your thoughts. Maybe you don’t agree with my basic premise about what a diabolo collaboration is, or should be. If so let us know your thoughts about it, I think this is the first thing we have to agree about before making up rules…
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: 5p3ak on November 21, 2016, 12:20:46 PM
Congrats on the release of this year's collab video, however I am kinda disappointed with this years collab, IMO it needs more diversity and less of the same people.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Arjan on November 21, 2016, 12:43:41 PM
So a comic summary of what Pieter said; If you are a beast, you are in. If you aren't a beast, don't worry, get a beast (bear, tiger, crocodile, snake), fight it and you're still in.  :-D

I see your point Pieter, very clear. I agree. And the point of work for it, totally valid I would say.

Personally I feel like I could be almost left out this year for some reason, like Wis also said. I didn't put that much effort in, I did send in a second clip that was together with Dixie that didn't make the cut, it was I guess maybe over exposed (quality issue) or just to boring, I don't know. It's all right, I'm happy with my spot. I know I can do something beastly, but honestly, getting that, at a nice location is just to much of a hassle for me. I rather send in something I know I will get on tape before I go out to a location.

But it raises another question I think, people who are active or were active on the forum, would they get a spot just for that? I mean, everyone here clearly does diabolo. Is that enough? And, people who aren't on the forum at all, but they would send in a clip, would they?

I don't think we will find clear answers to our questions. I don't think we have to. In the end, it has always been the job of the editor, and, it has to be said again, they have all done a great job always, and this one is no exception. This one is amazing, and I am so happy and grateful Clement has spent a great amount of time doing the work and making these difficult decisions.

We as a community are much more than the annual collab, although, it is that one very special thing that has happened for the last (10?) years. That, and the EJC meet and great are our communities biggest happenings. We do this for ourselves, not for anyone outside the world of diabolo. The release of the collab has always been an early and free(!) xmas gift, is how I see it. And we are the ones who enjoy it the most.

I don't think strict rules and guidelines will simply be necessary. This is something that, with all respect, will naturally workout.
Maybe, we could set up a board or review group, represented by members of the community to be involved in the selection process of the collab, but that alone will be tricky to setup. Our editors have never let us down, they cant please us all.

I am very glad with everyone taking part in this discussion. Please keep em coming.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Aldair Espinosa on November 21, 2016, 01:46:51 PM
I've reading this comments in the morning, and I understand all the points of views of everybody. Well,  let me tell us something: Clement did a lot of disaster  to promote  the video, he used to publish: "Arjan will be...Etienne will be... don't you wanna appear with them? Send a clip". And we did it. Clement said that he recibed 100 videos or more than... but he decided to use "the best" videos, and it doesn't looks like because ChinChanHao appears maybe 7 times in the video, and everybody too! ****! Sorry for don't know how to film haha..   He could use another participant to don't have that problem of "repetition", and why I say this? Because there's a lot of people with good tricks, if you watch that is the same trick, delete it! But don't push out to the people who did our best to the video! Who tried to make an original trick and it doesn't appears! because all who sent a clip was with the illusion  to appear and share a space whit people of any part of the world, because we're a community. And in this video doesn't appear this.
Also, yes... I'm tired of watch the same tricks since 2013, but now I'm tired of watch  the same people, and now more because Clement did it more than 5 times hahaha. Now,  I'm not agree to do "a second video ", I don't want your consolation.  I'm a little disappointed and frustrated.
Clement had the opportunity to re alive diabolo.ca collaborations. The most important thing is not the quiality of a video, it's how we are togheter like a community.

Sorry for my English, hope you can understand.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Jannis on November 21, 2016, 04:50:18 PM
in my opinion choosing the best tricks for the video is the right way to go. our video represents what our forum is capable of. if you want to be part of it, fight for it like everyone in the video did. cases are, if you are not in the video, that shows you that you may want to practice more.

and i'd rather watch a 5 minute video filled with amazing tricks than a 15 minute video where i have to watch bad/unclean tricks for 60% of the time.
i also think that this is one of the main points of why this video is better than the videos of the last years. you can watch the video and enjoy every trick, no matter if you are a pro player or a beginner, because every trick was a highlight. in the last years you had to watch so many "not so good" clips, that those few awesome tricks just weren't enough to make me watch the video over and over again.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Timo on November 21, 2016, 05:09:17 PM
I completely agree with everything @Pieter said.
I think @Clément did an amazing job editing this years Collaboration Video. By the selecting @Clément has done, he managed to create the, in my opinion, visually and trick-wise most beautiful Collaboration so far, even a bit better than the Collaboration Video from 2012 (Which is really hard to top).
The beauty of the collaboration video each year is that every year another person gets voted to edit the video. The person who gets voted gets all the freedom to put up rules for submitting and to edit the video how he wants. By that he gets to decide how he wants to, of course, edit a great video for us, the Diabolo community. But even more important, he gets the freedom to decide how he wants to present the Diabolo Community the best way to the rest of the world. And who doesn't believe it isn't about showing Diabolo to the rest of the world: The Collaboration Video from 2012 has 913 Thousand views, making it almost a million and one of the most watched Diabolo videos up to now. And you can trust me, these are not 913 Thousand views only from people who play diabolo.
Also: Next year the editor you vote for may, or probably will, edit the video completely different.
I also have to disagree with @Aldair Espinosa:

The most important thing is not the quiality of a video, it's how we are together like a community.

Of course it's about being together as a community but that doesn't mean that we have to include completely everyone. I agree that some people in this years video could have been shown less so other people can get included but this is how @Clément decided to show Diabolo to the entire world. But I guess I also have to agree with @Aldair Espinosa a bit about the promotion of the video. I think it was awesome that @Clément put so much effort into reminding people all the time about the collaboration so a lot of people contribute, but I can see how not getting included (I don't know how many weren't included) can be a bit sad and disappointing.

But as I said, @Clément did an amazing job and managed to create my favorite collaboration video so far. And if you didn't get included, you have another chance each and every year to submit an even more awesome clip :-D
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: 7531 on November 21, 2016, 06:07:00 PM



Of course it's about being together as a community but that doesn't mean that we have to include completely everyone.



If diabolo.ca is a comunnity for all the diabolo players I understand that a diabolo.ca collaboration video must be for ALL. If you want a good video with awesome tricks you can make a post here and pick the best players of diabolo.
Also I don t think that views are important, is more about have fun doing a video wich each member of the comunity than have thounsands of views.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Aldair Espinosa on November 21, 2016, 09:40:07 PM
@Timo  Of course, not everyone can appear, but what I wanted to say was: In the other collabs, you could see the union of diabolo players, and in this video it doesn´t looks like, that´s unusual. That´s what I wanted to say, man. Anyways, it´s a good job from Clemo. 
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Richard on November 21, 2016, 10:30:34 PM
It's interesting to see that a lot of people say that the focus of the collaboration video is to show the rest of the world what Diabolo.ca can do.

I'd like to ask the question: why is this a priority?

Does it matter that the 2012 got 900k views? For me it's more about sharing within our community. But I understand if you think otherwise.

I do believe that visually this is the best video by far, but at what expense? Is it really a collaboration of everyone from this forum or just a select few, top diaboloists in the world. If the latter, then why call it a collaboration video? it seems like a large percentage of diaboloists that submitted their videos didn't make the cut, so they didn't collaborate at all.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Icebox on November 22, 2016, 02:37:53 AM
HOLD UP is that the Quentin that did Useless Information? Because if so then that's a real blast from the past.

I don't necessarily think that every clip that gets submitted should make the final cut, but as long as the clip has merit to it I think it's worth including, especially when the alternative is using several clips from the same few people. The collaboration video is a nice way to get your face out there and be a part of something whole even if you don't have a treasure-trove of tricks up your sleeve. As great as it is to see such high level play from the people who appear several times, I think inclusion for the rest of the community at large is more important to me, especially if it's evident that the submitter cares about the quality of what they're contributing to the video. Just my $0.02.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Chloé F. on November 22, 2016, 10:08:34 AM
My opinion completely goes along Icebox's one.
By criticising the selection of the clips I did not mean to say that the video was bad. I really enjoy watch it as anybody else here.
But the collab spirit is however stained by this selection.
I also agree with Sebi, it could be very nice to make a second part video. Not for the hype, not for the craziness of the tricks obviously, because it would probably be much less "watchable" as some of you said, than the first one. But to preserve the collaborative spirit that is a really nice idea.
But nowadays we don't need to make a short video with only the "best of the best", in my opinion it could be interesting to mix awesome clips with medium quality clips, it wouldn't make it bull**** or anything. That way we could keep both impressive trucks along with the collaborative aspect.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: The Void on November 23, 2016, 06:08:50 PM
@Clément Very cool. Thank you for all the work you did in putting this together. I enjoyed watching it, and I enjoyed the vibe of the music too, even though that's not my sort of music - but I felt like it "worked" in this video.

The discussion is very interesting, with many good points all round. I very much like the idea of inclusiveness, but the balance of what makes a "watchable" video should, I think, always be in the hands of the editor.

Perhaps next year, anyone who proposes themselves to be voted as the editor can give their opinion of how they plan to edit (what will make it in, how many clips per person, skill level, video quality, locations... etc), and then when we vote, we will collectively choose our editor, but also the style for that year's collab.

Spin on!
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Pau on November 23, 2016, 06:40:30 PM
Whoa, what a video! I can understand why these entries made it to the collab.

At the same time I understand the emotions of the people who have been left out. I think this is symptomatic of our discipline. Whichever way we turn it diabolo not only has been having a faster evolution than any other juggling discipline in recent years. The level of performance is also very, very high as this video shows. We saw the same thing in the EJC diabolo battle, where selection rounds had to be held for a first time this year.

The solution that came to my mind is not on Wis' list and I will take the liberty to present it to you now.

Would it be an option to make several collab videos - eg one pro collab, one amateur collab, one girl collab, one French collab, one Taiwanese collab- and present them here so that people can vote which entry they like best? And make one final collab video after the votes have been counted?
That way, we would get many more free Christmas presents ;) , it also makes sure everyone is in one video or another AND we get one final collab video with the very best tricks that will have been chosen in a democratic way. I understand this would be too much work for one editor. We'd be needing several.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Clément on November 24, 2016, 01:36:45 PM
Ok ok i think it's time to reply.

I'm little sad about the community reaction, because the a big part of the community dont talk about the tricks the video herself  but they ask : why i'm not in the collab, you forget me ect ...
I can understand this reaction,many people have filmed for this collab and they are not there ( lots of questions  : really ? i spend time for this and i'm not in? )

You know when the diabolo.ca collaboration video start in 2006 it was during the post " Diabology " age , people really started to be creative and that change the diabolo world for many of us, i saw Diabology i saw  the first diabolo.ca collab in 2006, and i saw the WJF 2004 when diabolo was back in juggling world.
When you see the collab in 2006 today again i can see the best of the best of the of the time " Antonin " , " Jibe " , "Arjan" ( you still the best today bro  :) ) " , and the collab is amazing , like 2007, 2008, the selection was tough but for the good of diabolo community , when i saw the 2008 collab that motived me to create more than just diabolo tricks but it's art we need to creat for make people dream and motivated to create their own tricks and impress the community.

My selection was tough maybe too tough cause i see all the diabolo progression during 10 years, and in diabolo world 10 years is gigantic, now we have 5 low , 6 high catches, 10 diabolos passing attempt, crazy 3 low tricks, that incredible, i don't made the decision alone i ask some people if i need to be tough or not and i wanted to make the collab more professional and motived the diabolo community with this collab, don't take this like in insult if you are not in the collab, i have been making mistakes of choice tricks or not received all the tricks in mail but i'm really proud about this collaboration and many of the best diabolists in the world think the same thing, maybe it's a professional collab but that was good for the internet community.

Now i want to talk about the controversy about this choice, i saw lot's of talk about me , like " some people are only in the collab because they clement's friends  " or " it's a planet diabolo collab not d.ca collab" " we saw ChihaHan Cheo (@Aldair Espinosa 4 times not 7) too much like thomas and clément " " 0 mexicanos "  and more controversy about me , i don't want too much about that because for me it's a wast of time to talk to me, like Wis say and try to develop in Facebook not only my friend (never meet ChihaHan Cheo, Tyson,Tino,Stepan and more more ) are in the collab and it's not my fault if my friend are " Etienne " or " Thomas " or " Guillaume " really guys you don't want them in the collab ? anyways  @Chloé F. talking about how I should have filmed in Paris ( 104 ) it's it is a personal attack because yes i understand your point of view but without me Etienne Thomas Robin don't have rushs for this collab ... but it's a wast of time to talk about that ...

When i started the collaboration i tell i want to come back in 2008 i was thinking everybody knows the selection criteria of this collab , Martijn select the tricks and the returns were very good, but now internet is very popular and lots of people send tricks like i said more than 100 rushs maybe 140 something like that, it's impossible to satisfy everyone really and the collab during 14 minutes it's long, same like 2008 ...

In 2014 the collab was very controversial ( look the dislike in Youtube ) of some people like " i was hopping a better level " , " always the same things " , " not high level ", i think we need to respect the editor choice , 2013 was a very community collab yes it's good but not a very high level like this year and i understand diabolo.ca need to present the diabolo.ca community, this year was a selected collab maybe next less tough, community need to choose this. But the same people who say : the collab 2014 is very bad , and now in 2016 " you are too tough to the selection " i think THIS is the problem, we can't satisfy everyone , all level , all amateurs, all professional,all community.

I'm very proud about this collab and i understand why some people are displeased but try to understand my position and not to be fixed about " why i'm not in the collab " think about the diabolo world , diabolo.ca is the biggest diabolo forum in the world and that why made a selection.

I do not denigrate anyone who is not in the collab i hope you trust me and for some people the hesitation was very very long..

A big thanks to Wis who try to bring together the diabolo community around the world.
Sorry if my english is not perfect.

Clément
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Pau on November 24, 2016, 04:47:26 PM
I'm very proud about this collab and i understand why some people are displeased but try to understand my position and not to be fixed about " why i'm not in the collab " think about the diabolo world , diabolo.ca is the biggest diabolo forum in the world and that why made a selection.

I do not denigrate anyone who is not in the collab i hope you trust me and for some people the hesitation was very very long..
You have every reason to be proud, it is a fantastic video. I enjoyed watching it very much and I am sure you did your very best to put it together in the best way you could think of.

At the same time your video has created a bit of a debate. It is the starting point of a discussion and I think it is very healthy for the art of diabolo and for our community/forum to discuss how we can make even better videos in the future. Thank you for making clear how you went about in selecting the best clips for the video. Inevitably your video will show how you think a collab video should be. That is not necessarily bad. Quite on the contrary I would say. And as you said: you can't please everybody. But let's take this opportunity to find a way that suits all, or most of us.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Clément on November 24, 2016, 04:56:13 PM
Thanks you Pau for your maturity of your comments and your right  ;)
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Furlisht on November 24, 2016, 07:37:33 PM
Hi Clément,

First, I want to thank you for the amazing job you've done! It's a hard task to put all of this in motion, and for everybody who spent 4 hours filming editing and sending a video and did not make the final cut, it seems important to me to realize all the hours that you put in that video (from start to finish)! It's a big responsibility to put such a video for a big community like the diabolo community!

Back to the other topics, I think it's impossible to put everybody (even with only one shot per diabolist) in a video like this! Everybody nowadays can shoot a short diabolo trick in full hd to send via internet for this kind of event, so there surely will be a lot of raw videos to choose from!

To create two collab video seems to me like a bad idea because every trick and person is different, and nobody would want in my opinion to be relegated into the "second video". To me it looks a bit like the misfits videos, in the shadow of the proper collab!

15 minutes is already a hell of a long video, so I agree with an idea already stated here before me : Be creative! Whether using your technical abilities or spending time trying to film your favorite trick in a good looking location, play with the camera, whatever, create something "unique" in any way you can!

In the end, by allowing you to create this wonderful video, we trusted your emotions and your way to view the collaboration, as an artist would represent its view of a particular subject!

I'd also like to thank everybody for participating in this conversation in a friendly manner, something of rare occurrence on the Internet! It's a really interesting conversation!



Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Pau on November 24, 2016, 08:09:26 PM
In the end, by allowing you to create this wonderful video, we trusted your emotions and your way to view the collaboration, as an artist would represent its view of a particular subject!
Exactly. If all material was sent to you the end result would have been different. And it would also have been different if the editing had been done by me. Bottom line (and at this point my Dutch directness kicks in)
If you (the general you, I don't mean Furlisht or anyone in particular) do not want to go through the bitter disappointment of being left out then don't send any material. As soon as you send a clip you know it will be subject to selection.
And if you want a collaboration video to be the way you like it then run for editor. Only Clément and Lucas did, and Clément got the job. This is what he has created with the material supplied. Be a grown-up about it.

In terms of content, because it is still a work of art this thread is about, the highlight, for me, is Jan's entry. It is aesthetically genius. The background and angle are perfect for the trick, and vice versa. Also, his entry is perfect for a video, on stage it would lose some of its quality I think. Would still be good but not AS good.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Chloé F. on November 24, 2016, 09:09:30 PM
@Clément thank you for answering! I guess this took you a long time with all of these answers

As you said, you made the video as an impressive skill video more than a "we are all together" video, and as you are the editor, I do completely respect your point.
However, in my opinion collabs should not only be a matter of skill. I really enjoyed last year's collab because there were many nice landscapes, even though the level was for sure lower. I already said it but I really like watching your video several times a day, I like the music and the tricks, but I do believe that it lacks aesthetics because most of the tricks are filmed in basic environment.
Please, do not take this as a personal attack (I am not that mean!) but what I wanted to say is that you could have made things even better if you had filmed Etienne, Thomas, Nino in the streets of Paris! I know you offered to film people's clips around Paris if we asked you to, and I believe this is a very great proposition. It would certainly have been a shame if these guys had not been in, but again it could have been way more outstanding.

So please don't hate me for what I said, I was for sure frustrated like many others but I only wanted to make a constructive criticism.
Keep in mind that I find this video and your work amazing!

Chloé

Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Pau on November 24, 2016, 11:16:38 PM
Apart from

- good level of tricks
- togetherness/community feeling
- creativity in tricks and editing
- presence of female diaboloists
- pretty background

what more do we want? We might as well draw up a list right now ;)
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Wis on November 25, 2016, 10:06:59 AM
Thanks Pau, and all the others contributing. And thanks @Clément for the kind words for me.

I was already doing a a list but I wanted to summarize even more aspects of this conversation. Wanna add something? feel free, I may edit this post.

I have tried to make it very synthetic, so please restrain to rephrase what I have listed below unless you feel it brings true informative value.

-------------------------------------Goals/meaning----------------------------------------------

Goals:
- To show people which parts of the world are practicing diabolo
- To show people what are the "best" tricks in the world (technically, creative)
- To show that I feel I belong to the diabolo.ca forum community
- To show that I feel I belong to the diabolo world community (of which diabolo.ca is a symbol)

Meanings for the contributors. With this video it is visible to the world that:
- I belong to the community
- I am good at diabolo
- I am next to the good players

-----------------------------------Analysis of reactions--------------------------------------------

Outputs of the collab:
People that do not appear in the final cut
- Complain that it is too long with very bad tricks
- Complain that it is too demanding and exclusive
- Like or love the video with some remarks
People that do appear in the final cut
- Complain that it is too long with very bad tricks (less emotionally)
- Complain that it is too demanding and exclusive (less emotionally)
- Just like the video with some remarks (more emotionally)

Personal raw feelings
- Cool my trick is in, I am cool enough. And the community is massive, yuhuhuhu!
- My trick is not in. I am bad (technical discrimination), my camera sucks (economic discrimination), my shot is ugly (lazy discrimination), and I thought this is the most important thing in my life :(
- My trick is in, it is not very cool, it lowers the average of the video, but I am happy I made it
- My trick is not in, and after seeing how good the collab is, I think I can work harder to make a "valuable" contribution
- There is a lot of missing people, I do not want to belong to a community that excludes
- People cry so much, I do not want to collaborate with anybody the rest of my life
- See how they smashed Clément, I do not want to edit in the future
- This video is watchable for non diabolo people, and I want them to watch diabolo because is the best way to have more people doing diabolo in the world (my opinion, this answers @Richard 's question)
- I have watched the video once, I hope I remember where I appear, because I will not watch it complete ever again

-----------------------------------Looking forward--------------------------------------------

2/3 possible main paths:
- Leave this decision to the editor. We can always remember this conversation when starting to prepare for the next collab so the editor may take it into account
- Put some certain set of of minimum rules. E.g: no more than 2/3 tricks per person Nobody seems to be interested on this
- The editor explains what he plans to do and we vote it before the submission period. (@Void's suggestion)

Selection criteria:
- Good level of tricks
- Togetherness/community feeling
- Creativity in tricks and editing
- Presence of female diaboloists
- Pretty background
- Well filmed
- We limit the maximum number of tricks per person
- To try to include representative from the minority groups (at least a girl, at least one person from continent, at least one or two kids)
- Related: to have some minimum geographic limit. E.g: At least one player of each country (if there are any submissions)
- People who are active or were active on the forum, would they get a spot just for that? (Wis says: I like how that feels, Ben (@Icebox) being out of this collab was the toughest part for me)
- And, people who aren't on the forum at all, but they would send in a clip, would they? (Wis says: they may)

Format of the video:
- One longest video
- Two long videos, with symmetric criteria on both (crazy and average players are mixed together)
- Two videos with asymmetric lengths and criteria (possible to choose two editors, potentially one experienced and one novel)
    + First video of only the best, second with everything else
    + First video with only the best, second with mixed of the best with the non-selected tricks for
- Make small thematic collaborations and then a super collab out of it (@Pau's idea, note from Wis: tons of work)

My personal view on some topics
- @Arjan: you convinced me not to go for strict rules, anyway people end up ignoring them or breaking them by mistake
- @Pau, Be a grown-up about it.. we have teens and kids in this forum... remember about it
- @All: Try to be as honest with your feelings as you can when you say "Let's just put everybody in a long video". That is the easy moral thing to do today, but in the future it can come back to you.
- Now I am going to explain my general diabolo modus operandi. I spend tons of time writing and thinking about diabolo, I love it. I spend so much time because I want more people to enjoy diabolo, both by practising and watching. Imagine if the diabolo.ca collab had more African players. That would be a consequence of what we are doing. And that would mean that now more people enjoy diabolo in Africa. And I think diabolo brings joy wherever it goes.
- Does it make any sense to say that "we want the video to represent the community, not to create something that will get 1M views, but we do not want to make two asymmetric videos because then the second one will not get enough views". This is a clear contradiction between goal and train or thought, sorry @Dominik.
- This is why I would encourage the next editor to use any of the Two videos with asymmetric lengths and criteria. I also encourage to have two editors, probably knowing that the second video will be less visible to the world may encourage people starting out to volunteer for this video
    + The short video achieves my goal, spreading the diabolo word.
    + The long video achieves the community goal, to keep us together somehow. It allows to be more selective without remorse.
    + Long video with young editor, young person holding responsability, becoming a greater editor, growing in importance in the diabolo community, chances to not be judged too severly. I can still remember I felt bad for Max when there were some comments on editing quality in 2011 (http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=9510.msg105219#msg105219)
    + Some downsides of this option are:
        * people may feel this is too exclusive, to be in the second video and stop contributing (I am fine with that, being at all out is worse for me, speaking of charity is senseless in this case, in my eyes),
        * the community may tear apart and the forum activity will decline (hehehe, too late for that),
        * instead of getting motivation to improve people will be discouraged (in most of the people I saw the reaction of 'ok, so I will train more, and if next year I need to complain I will do it like Sebi and Valerian, and others, from the inside')
- I am fine also with the other solutions that I do not promote. My main goal is efficiency, short video, less editing work, better edition (you get numb editing such long videos), higher impact -> More players all around the world -> Finally somebody beats Robin :P More amazing things for us to watch and enjoy.
- Funnily enough, last year Max (different Max than 2011) didn't have so much trouble because he didn't get as many submissions as Clément. And why Clément got them? Because he promoted the collab to have a great final product.


It is so funny how the tagging not working issue as been fixed just on time for this discussion. Thanks @Void. It is even funnier that I cannot make it work in this massive post
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: 5p3ak on November 25, 2016, 12:18:49 PM
Apart from

- good level of tricks
- togetherness/community feeling
- creativity in tricks and editing
- presence of female diaboloists
- pretty background

what more do we want? We might as well draw up a list right now ;)
Here's what I think, mainly more diversity.
-limit the appearance of the same person up to 2 times, prefably not doing the same "family" of skills, for example 1 scene doing 1D and the other doing 3D.
-At least 1 person per country if possible, again depending on submission.
-Wider age range, more kids, perhaps more middle aged/senior citizens?
-Related to the previous point, less focus on Pure Technical Skill, and maybe slightly more focus on creativity,body movement of subject/talent,emotion,expressions,stage presence, collaborative playing(passings,2 person 1 set of sticks etc) and cinematography.

Thank You.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Jannis on November 25, 2016, 12:46:36 PM
i think we are making ourselfs way to much thoughts about this one.
clement had the job of editing the collab, so he sat the rules. next year it may be someone else editing the video, and that person will set different rules. that's how it's always been, and that's how it should stay.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Pau on November 25, 2016, 01:50:36 PM
Surely there is a solution somewhere between a very extensive set of rules and the "don't fuss" sentiment.

I must say I like the idea of two separate videos. That way more people will be in one of them. How about...


one crazy skill video and one style/creativity video?


And leave the rules to the editors, with this thread for inspiration and reference, as has been proposed?

Skill and creativity not excluding each other of course, and with with some clips it might be a little hard to choose in which video they should be (think Alexis' clip in this year's collab video).

 
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: The Void on November 25, 2016, 02:33:19 PM
In the end, by allowing you to create this wonderful video, we trusted your emotions and your way to view the collaboration, as an artist would represent its view of a particular subject!

I'd also like to thank everybody for participating in this conversation in a friendly manner, something of rare occurrence on the Internet! It's a really interesting conversation!
Completely agree with both of these. :-)
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Pieter on November 25, 2016, 04:26:41 PM
I’m happy a lot of people shared their thoughts about this.
Here are some replies I would like to give:

@Arjan
Quote
“I don't think we will find clear answers to our questions. I don't think we have to. In the end, it has always been the job of the editor, and, it has to be said again, they have all done a great job always, and this one is no exception.”
OK, but maybe this is the problem right now, that a lot of people think there is a problem with this system. It’s not because ‘it has always been the job of the editor’ this is a good/unchangeable thing…

@Aldair Espinosa
Quote
“The most important thing is not the quiality of a video, it's how we are togheter like a community.”
Do we agree? This is still the basic question we have to answer in my opinion.
The diabolo.ca forum is the way we are together as a community. The video we make each year is a collaboration of people from this community, and this should be a quality collaboration.

@Richard
Quote
“It's interesting to see that a lot of people say that the focus of the collaboration video is to show the rest of the world what Diabolo.ca can do.
I'd like to ask the question: why is this a priority?”
I don't see what's the point of a collaboration video if we don't share it with the world. I think most of us know eachother from videos, being in one video together can't be the only purpose of a collab? Clément did some advertising like "do you want to be in the video with ****?" ok, that's just teasing people, but that isn't the reason we make the video, is it? It is a collaboration video, not a presenting video.

@7531
Quote
“Also I don t think that views are important, is more about have fun doing a video wich each member of the comunity than have thounsands of views.”
Yes that’s true, but that doesn’t mean the output doesn’t have to be good quality. Otherwise we should stop uploading this video to youtube, because this is the way you present a video to the world nowadays. Otherwise we just post it on diabolo.ca and make it a 'members only' video. (Everyone who’s saying we make it for ourselves, think about this! Is that really the reason?)

@5p3ak
Quote
“-At least 1 person per country if possible, again depending on submission.
-Wider age range, more kids, perhaps more middle aged/senior citizens?”
@Wis
Quote
"- Presence of female diaboloists"
I don’t think these are valuable criterions. Nationality nor gender can be the reason to include a submission. We don’t discriminate in the diabolo community, so in my opinion nationality nor gender are things we have to discuss about here.
@Wis, I don’t see why this should be selection criteria. Can you tell me why you consider this as important?

@JaNnI$
Quote
“i think we are making ourselfs way to much thoughts about this one.
clement had the job of editing the collab, so he sat the rules. next year it may be someone else editing the video, and that person will set different rules. that's how it's always been, and that's how it should stay.”
Ok, this is a bit like saying “women never had the right to vote, ‘that's how it's always been, and that's how it should stay.’”


Maybe this forum has got too big to let one person decide about a project that is close to a lot of people’s heart…
Two videos definitely won’t solve the problem! Next year the discussion will be about how this and this person should have been in the other video and vice versa… This will easily lead to the ‘good’ and the ‘bad’ collab… (exactly what @Furlisht said! (
Quote
“To create two collab video seems to me like a bad idea because every trick and person is different, and nobody would want in my opinion to be relegated into the "second video". To me it looks a bit like the misfits videos, in the shadow of the proper collab!”
))
The idea of people who want to do the task of editing, presenting there thoughts about it, seems a good idea, although this still can lead to unhappy people…
also: I don’t think this is a topic we are spending too much thoughts on nor that it will solve it self.

And I stick to my point: be “unique” and “creative”! this should be the selection criteria we need. (and in my opinion gender and nationality should not be on the list of @Wis selection-criteria…) In my opinion Clément didn't used "technical skills" as selection criteria. There was fun and creativity in this video. And I think there were some nice tricks/clips a lot of people can do, for example: I don’t think it’s very hard to land a diabolo in your nuts while lying on the floor under a diabolo, this is no technical skill, but only Nino has the balls to do it, which resulted in a comic nice clip everybody enjoyed. The same with the trick at the end: a nice collaboration trick of four people and only one need a diaboloskill to whip the diabolo at the end, a lot of people could do this funny thing… remember the guy embracing his mom in a previous collab: not very technical skilled, but oh so funny…  :)
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: 7531 on November 25, 2016, 06:38:42 PM
Main idea of a diabolo collaboration video for me is just have fun. I don t care if the video has 2 milion views or 5. Is more like have a video of all the people of this forum doing some diabolo tricks. For must be more open to everyone, as I said If you want a pro video, like the collaboration video of this year, just mae one with the best diabolo players of this forum.

Many people put effort to record something and now they are not on the video, that is really bad. For example some good diabolo players from south america send videos and they are not on the videoI met some diabolo players and like 90% just play diabolo for fun and not to have the highest level.

We have to decide what we want, a pro video whith only a few diabolo players or a video that shows all the people of this great community. I suggest to make a poll and we ll see what people want.
peace
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Antoine Boyer on November 26, 2016, 10:16:15 AM
Hi, I'm not really a member of d.ca but I love diabolo and I wanted to say something  ;)!

Ok so I recorded something and I'm not in the video too, but i think that many people who was complaining, forgot that Clement tried to do his best. Be the editor is not easy, all decisions can be disappointing for someone, he did a perfect job and we have to respect him for this and remember you that for the most part you have never been editor of a collaboration video (i was already editor for a collaboration video of a diabolo website but less famous with 30 french diabolo players) and you don't imagine the responsibilities that you have.
I recognize that we can be disapointted but we can't blame the job of Clement, and I congratulate him for this amazing video.

peace (sorry for my bad english)
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Jannis on November 26, 2016, 11:36:40 PM
Ok, this is a bit like saying “women never had the right to vote, ‘that's how it's always been, and that's how it should stay.’”

you got me wrong there. i just wanted to say that we should trust in the editor to make choices. at leat we voted for clement to edit the video, so we should be good with the decision he makes. :)
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Pau on November 27, 2016, 10:38:32 AM
Not everybody is. That is why we are having a discussion. Apparently, something has changed. Be it a perception. Be it the number of people who sent in a clip. Something has changed and many people feel the need to work out a way to take this change into account when making collaboration videos in the future.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Wis on November 27, 2016, 03:33:47 PM

@5p3ak @Wis I don’t think these are valuable criterions. Nationality nor gender can be the reason to include a submission. We don’t discriminate in the diabolo community, so in my opinion nationality nor gender are things we have to discuss about here.
@Wis, I don’t see why this should be selection criteria. Can you tell me why you consider this as important?

Yes, I can. First I put it because it seems that for certain people it is important, I was summarising what was said. The fact that for somebody that wants to participate in the project is important is relevant to me.
Then, thinking about the feeling of this collective I tend to see a important benefit. You say we want to show what the community can do. But there are sectors inside the community, and some with some marked styles. In any case, showing what the best people of these sectors can do, can motivate those viewers to work harder. By the identification principle. Is there any equivalent to Etienne in the girls world, not yet, and I would like to see that. I think ensuring that the best clip sent from a girl to the editor makes it to the final cut is a good way to help to have better level in the future.
And that applies for kids, people from latin america, spaniards (we are so few :'( )

Maybe this forum has got too big to let one person decide about a project that is close to a lot of people’s heart…
Two videos definitely won’t solve the problem! Next year the discussion will be about how this and this person should have been in the other video and vice versa… This will easily lead to the ‘good’ and the ‘bad’ collab… (exactly what @Furlisht said! ())
The idea of people who want to do the task of editing, presenting there thoughts about it, seems a good idea, although this still can lead to unhappy people…
also: I don’t think this is a topic we are spending too much thoughts on nor that it will solve it self.

So the two videos and the voting are ideas that do not attempt to solve the problem completely but to: have the goals of everybody as covered as possible, and to have everybody as happy as possible. There is no perfect answer. I fully agree it is better to talk about this topic as much as we can. This is the best way to know how many people wants one or another thing.

We have to decide what we want, a pro video whith only a few diabolo players or a video that shows all the people of this great community. I suggest to make a poll and we ll see what people want.
peace

This is a good idea, but I am a little afraid quite some people will not vote. I mean that many people that wanted to appear in the video will not even read this thread, and I'm personally interested in their opinion. I don't see it as their fault the fact that forums lost tons of activity and inertia. Maybe we can complement it with some questions in some Facebook groups. I can take care of that, but I accept any volunteer, :)

Please note that having this discussion is not blaming Clément. Even the people that are unhappy love the job he did. And here we are just putting the cards on the table, so in the next collab hopefully less complains may arrive. This is still compatible with "trusting the editor to make choices", this is just giving him input so the choices are as informed as possible.

I'd like this community to stay as little ruthless as possible. But again, maybe 7531 does not mind if the video has little views, I do. I think it will help more to have more people doing diabolo around the world. The highest number of views, and ensuring that as many sectors of the community are represented, the highest attracting power it will have, I believe.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: aaro on November 27, 2016, 03:39:22 PM
Sorry, but who else should we blame for leaving most of people out, if not the editor who made the decision?

I understand that he was voted for the job, but does that make it impossible to criticize the product? In fact, i think the actual edit is good and while the music is not my cup of tea, i would be fine with it. The biggest problem is the actual inclusion/exclusion of clips and people.

While i support the idea of having more amateurs and kids in the video, i would also like to point out that some or most of the people on the video are amateurs. As in, they do not do diabolo as their profession. Doing 5 low in your backyard does not make you a professional juggler. Getting paid for juggling makes you a pro.

So what we have here is a subjective decision to include people in a collaboration video based on the quality of the clip and the quality of the trick on the clip. Maybe what makes people angry the most, is the fact that some people appear many times, while so many others where completely left out. This feels like maybe surface appeal was also a factor. That does not really speak well for the community being broad and open, as i think is our goal, or is it?
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Wis on November 27, 2016, 04:55:17 PM
I said that having the discussion of what to do in next years is a separate thing from blaming. I tend to prefer what has happened, and hence I am grateful to Clément. But yeah, each can blame as wants. But since you posed a question I'll answer. Shouldn't we share a part of the blame as a community for not having had this clearly needed discussion earlier?
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Pau on November 27, 2016, 05:03:59 PM
Shouldn't we share a part of the blame as a community for not having had this clearly needed discussion earlier?
I can see the point you are trying to make Wis. And I have a question for you. When did we find out a discussion was needed? As far as I am aware the need arose after Clément's video was published.

I think that as a community we should not be blaming Clément or anybody else and use all that energy to find a solution instead. This discussion is a good first step.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: aaro on November 27, 2016, 08:05:22 PM
I don't think i articulated my point too well there. What i meant to say, is that the editor makes the calls, and if the editor works without any community guidelines, there will be disappointments. Atleast in my mind collaboration video is not supposed to be some red bull d**k waving contest, but a representation of community.
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Pieter on November 28, 2016, 10:44:56 AM
@JaNnI$
Quote
“i just wanted to say that we should trust in the editor to make choices. at leat we voted for clement to edit the video, so we should be good with the decision he makes.  ”
True :) but this is what we need to agree about: are there guidelines needed (and I think most of us are willing to accept guidelines if this avoids unhappy people) and if so, which one? Of course the editor eventually will be the executive power but we as a group are the legislative power.

@Wis I think I see your point but I think this will lead to trouble… :) If you want representatives for sectors in the community, where will this division end? The sectors are endless…
Does it matter there is no female equivalent to Etienne? It’s not necessary to have a collaboration video full with beasty moves, they have to be “unique” and “creative” (sorry I keep saying this, but I have a bit the feeling nobody is picking up these criteria, and for me they seem the most general, less discriminating). There is no single reason why a girl or any person from any nationality can make a creative shot.
To talk a bit more about uniqueness and creativity ( ;) ) :
Quote
“I think ensuring that the best clip sent from a girl to the editor makes it to the final cut is a good way to help to have better level in the future.”
I have the feeling your aim of the collab is showing skills? (at least that’s what I read between the lines ;) ) Let Etienne do his unique beasty moves and let the girls do some creative stuff, no reason the exclude any of them. But including a girl because she’s a girl, seems to me a wrong selection argument.
Does it matter for the purpose of the collab if there are a few or a lot Spanish diabolo players? :)

About the two videos: just thinking about that gives me already the feeling of disunity. True there will be no perfect solution but we have to find the second best, and I think two videos isn’t the second best… ;)

Making a poll doesn’t seem a good idea to me either… like you said: a fraction will vote. And we all know where voting leads to, before we know Trump is editing the next years collab… :D

@aaro
Quote
“So what we have here is a subjective decision to include people in a collaboration video based on the quality of the clip and the quality of the trick on the clip.”
The selection will always be subjective, but do you agree we have to find guidelines or criteria, which are ok for the community, to make it less random?

@aaro
Quote
“Atleast in my mind collaboration video is not supposed to be some red bull d**k waving contest, but a representation of community.”
Ok this is your opinion, can you tell us why, because now it is just an opinion… Have you read my thoughts about it, where do you disagree with me? :) I already gave some arguments why I think the collab is not just a representation or presentation of people doing diabolo. I also gave arguments why the collab shouldn’t be a ‘high skilled’-selection only.


<3
Title: Re: Re: Diabolo Collaboration Video 2016
Post by: Wis on November 28, 2016, 12:04:42 PM


@Wis I think I see your point but I think this will lead to trouble… :) If you want representatives for sectors in the community, where will this division end? The sectors are endless…
Does it matter there is no female equivalent to Etienne? It’s not necessary to have a collaboration video full with beasty moves, they have to be “unique” and “creative” (sorry I keep saying this, but I have a bit the feeling nobody is picking up these criteria, and for me they seem the most general, less discriminating). There is no single reason why a girl or any person from any nationality can make a creative shot.
To talk a bit more about uniqueness and creativity ( ;) ) : I have the feeling your aim of the collab is showing skills? (at least that’s what I read between the lines ;) ) Let Etienne do his unique beasty moves and let the girls do some creative stuff, no reason the exclude any of them. But including a girl because she’s a girl, seems to me a wrong selection argument.
Does it matter for the purpose of the collab if there are a few or a lot Spanish diabolo players? :)

I think you are missing my point of "using the collaboration as a promotional video for diabolo around the world", if that is understood I think the questions you made are almost immediately solved.

If you can't understand why I believe that girls may be more encouraged to try diabolo if they see that in an all-star video there is a girl, then I think I cannot help you to understand it. If I were speaking of forcing at least X girls, or 50%, I would we worried about potential backlash, but ensuring a minimum of 1 person is very safe in my eyes.

How to create these sectors I am speaking of? Country, gender and age (+/-15) seem wide enough and safe enough not to get into trouble. With this we will have that in the collab needs to be. At least a girl, at least a guy, at least 1 kid, at least 1 adult, and at least one person from each country that submitted.

Maybe the issue here is that you keep repeating unique and creative because you think people are not getting your point, but I believe it is actually you the one is ignoring what other people are saying is their goal of the collab. They just have a different opinion.

For the purpose of the collab as I described it above it does matter if as many countries as possible are included, I believe. Having an excessive number of Spaniards might be also a problem if I am a Spaniard, I am editing the collab, the goal of the collab for many people is to create a feeling of world wide community, then I release my video and people feel their goal has been deceived. ;)

Making a poll doesn’t seem a good idea to me either… like you said: a fraction will vote. And we all know where voting leads to, before we know Trump is editing the next years collab… :D

Well, I am a very pro democracy guy. If Trump runs for it, and he get voted, then let it happen, and try to learn afterwards :)

So then, if we do not vote, what will be here will be this thread, that we can point out to next editors, and then they can come and try to figure out themselves what they want/think should do, and then handle the consequences. I am fine with it, I just do not know if the voting in addition may hurt.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on November 28, 2016, 12:19:37 PM
These are some messages from other thread. They refer to the same conversation, because of Marko's comment I have split the thread

Hi guys!

Just finished reading trough the messages about the new collab. I think we all agree that this is a thing that should bring us together not divide us. I'm feeling that current state might be dividing us little bit so my suggestion is this. Moderators divide this topic in two topics (or just put up a new topic for the classic feedback).

I think there should be feedback on video and a discussion of what collab in future should be. I think these are two big discussions that could be separated.

This way Clement and people who have done great job could get little less heat on their video and we could maybe have proper discussion on the defining what should be collaboration video. Do you think this be good idea for mods to do?

Good call from Marko/whoever is responsible for making this topic, I felt a little bad that one of the most discussed topics in recent history was the collab thread with very little commentary on the actual content of the video.

That being said, I'll echo my thoughts from before: this year's collab had some incredible footage and was phenomenally edited, but in my opinion the collab video is about the sense of community we get from this forum, and I don't think that really came through this year.

Yeah, the video is done and I'm happy this raised conversation since the next time it will be different again and hopefully we as community are happier about it. We will learn lot from this no matter where the discussion goes.

I believe it would bring us more together if we were able to have separate discussions about the content and how this could be done better in the future.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Pieter on November 28, 2016, 07:40:34 PM
@Wis
Quote
“Maybe the issue here is that you keep repeating unique and creative because you think people are not getting your point, but I believe it is actually you the one is ignoring what other people are saying is their goal of the collab. They just have a different opinion.”
I’m surprised you say this… I’ve followed the discussion closely and responded to a lot of comments…

I think it’s important, and that is what I tried to do with my responses, to lift up the discussion out of the range of ‘opinions’. Everybody has his own opinion about this, that’s a problem, so what we need are arguments to come to a consensus. I don’t think we will agree by just saying what your opinion is. Giving your opinion with reasonable arguments allows others to build up a thought construction.
I don’t see how we can build if we have no fundament. (you just gave a new possible fundament:
Quote
"using the collaboration as a promotional video for diabolo around the world"
this is the first time anyone mentions this I think? Before you said:
Quote
“I want more people to enjoy diabolo, both by practising and watching.”
now it is more clear to me. I'm curious what other people think about this.)

I just try to find arguments from you to understand why it’s important to have gender, nationality and age as selection criteria. The collab as 'a promotional video' makes it more clear to me.
I already gave arguments why I don’t think these are good criteria.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Ronnie on November 28, 2016, 08:42:23 PM
Quote
At least a girl, at least a guy, at least 1 kid, at least 1 adult, and at least one person from each country that submitted.

But where do you put the line? Do we need an LGBTQI+ member to show that our community is open to those people? Do we need a race quota so we can have a token black/hispanic/white/asian guy/girl? Do we need a member from each of the major religions? These may seem arbitrary but in my eyes they are no more arbitrary than the ones you proposed.

I say equality of opportunity trumps equality of outcome, it doesn't matter who you are, all that matters is diabolo [}{]
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on November 28, 2016, 09:30:57 PM
Just to clarify, I don't accuse you, Pieter, of not following. I am just saying than the final goal, might be more subjective than rational, there may be people saying "any submission should be in", I hope they are not majority. I am glad you do not dislike the proposition of using this video to get more people around the world playing diabolo :) And yes, I had the idea floating my mind but I hadn't written it down. I like it, it helps me to evaluate more clearly most of the dilemmas involved.

But where do you put the line? Do we need an LGBTQI+ member to show that our community is open to those people? Do we need a race quota so we can have a token black/hispanic/white/asian guy/girl? Do we need a member from each of the major religions? These may seem arbitrary but in my eyes they are no more arbitrary than the ones you proposed.

I say equality of opportunity trumps equality of outcome, it doesn't matter who you are, all that matters is diabolo [}{]

I would say, let's draw the line in the collectives that have complained. And no more. The country rule in my eyes appears naturally. We always wrote from which country people are, it seem to be inherently important to us. The girls complain has been also raised, and I agree to it. And the kids one, I just like it :)

Also, these rules would not ensure the happiness of most of the people that complained this year. I see them as a small step.

I can see the point you are trying to make Wis. And I have a question for you. When did we find out a discussion was needed? As far as I am aware the need arose after Clément's video was published.

And here I jump Pieter's boat a bit. I felt the need earlier, when in previous years the people with most level was not motivated to participate. I felt something was wrong, like the project we were creating was not attractive enough. I now look at it from the "getting more people to play diabolo in the world" perspective, and I feel they should be in. People should be mind blown, and encouraged to join.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Pau on November 28, 2016, 10:49:30 PM
As a left-handed female who was raised in Spanish (will that do Wis?) I think more left-handed players should be in. But that is, of course, just my personal opinion/wish ;)

I just try to find arguments from you to understand why it’s important to have gender, nationality and age as selection criteria. The collab as 'a promotional video' makes it more clear to me.
I already gave arguments why I don’t think these are good criteria.

Would you agree that these criteria make it possible to show to the world that diabolo really is for everybody? I can think of no better way than to have in as many different people as possible.

And here I jump Pieter's boat a bit. I felt the need earlier, when in previous years the people with most level was not motivated to participate. I felt something was wrong, like the project we were creating was not attractive enough. I now look at it from the "getting more people to play diabolo in the world" perspective, and I feel they should be in. People should be mind blown, and encouraged to join.
Now we are getting somewhere. It is true that there are more top players in the latest collab video. Which means some time has to be dedicated to their clips. Which in turn means that some other people were left out. I feel that what we have on our hands is a time issue more than anything. We'd have to either make longer videos or use shorter clips, or fewer appearances per player, to keep everybody happy. Just because there is more people now.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Richard on November 29, 2016, 07:42:30 PM
Hey guys,

I've been following this for a while and thought I should chip in to the conversation.

Initially I was very disappointed to not be included in the video after putting in so much effort with filming, but after reflection, I realise that Clement was only doing what he thought would be best for the collab. And we all voted for him, so we also voted for his vision/goal of what it should be about. Any editor will have their own spin on things, with their own style.

So, it's seems like the next step is to move forward, as a group and create a vision for future collabs (I can see this is already happening).

I think if we continue to discuss the way we are, with long messages etc. some of us will put a lot of time and thought into it, and others not so much because they don't have enough time, interest or English speaking skills.

so, my proposal is this - tweak something that Void said earlier and brainstorm a list of what our vision statement should be, then vote on it.

It's extremely common to create a vision statement when starting a business, organisation or team. Once you have defined it, it makes it easier to then make smaller decisions/goals that are linked with it (it helps you to know if you're going in the right direction). I have done this many times with small companies etc. and it's extremely helpful. I know it sounds a little weird but please bare with me.

A vision is a little bit different from goals. Your vision is the overarching statement that the goals come from, and then after that the way the videos will look.

So, a vision statement could be something like this:

"To present to the world the most imaginative and best quality diabolo that diabolo.ca players can produce in the year."

or

"To create a video, specifically for diabolo.ca members, that encourages all diaboloists to participate in, regardless of skill, and be seen by the rest of the group"

So, once we have a vision statement, then the details of categorisation/what's included/goals can easily be listed.

e.g. if we choose the first vision statement the goals (which also should be voted upon), could look like this:

Only really clear, high quality video will be used
Specific styles of music (funky, bpms, electronic etc.)
A certain level of creativity is required
A certain level of professionalism
Background needs to be xxx
Editing and animation needs to be at a high enough level so as to be attractive to people from non-diabolo backgrounds

I know this list isn't much different from what has been said many times before with these videos, but at least if everyone's clear on what to expect, there won't be as many disappointments.

So, in summary, I think we should vote on a vision/direction, before we get into the nitty gritty of what should or should not be included.

I'm going to suggest that we either use these 2 statement or tweak them, while adding another 2 or 3 and then let's start the voting.

1) "To present to the world the most imaginative and best quality diabolo that diabolo.ca players can produce in the year."
2) "To create a video, specifically for diabolo.ca members, that encourages all diaboloists to participate in, regardless of skill, and be seen by the rest of the group"

Rich
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: 7531 on November 30, 2016, 10:39:40 AM
Hey guys,

I've been following this for a while and thought I should chip in to the conversation.

Initially I was very disappointed to not be included in the video after putting in so much effort with filming, but after reflection, I realise that Clement was only doing what he thought would be best for the collab. And we all voted for him, so we also voted for his vision/goal of what it should be about. Any editor will have their own spin on things, with their own style.



I m think that you are wrong. If you decided to record something for the collaboration video you must be in, not out because a person decided that your tricks are not ok.
As I said everyone that decided to record something and send it must be on the video. To the people that said next year practice more to be on the video. wtf? It was a collaboration video, not a contest between all to pick the best tricks.
Also this year someone must to edit a video with all the tricks that were not in the official video and that way we can check how "bad"
 were our tricks to not be on the real video. (I  don t know how to edit good videos.anyone
?)
solutions:
a/Make a poll where we can get a real opinion of what people thing of the collaboration of this year.
b/On the initial poll, the editor must say what he is going to do so we can decided better
c/video must be post it here before to post it to general public. So we can decide if is ok.

good diabolo day :)


Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: JT on December 01, 2016, 12:58:05 AM
Thought I'd give my opinion. Ill keep it short because there's already enough to read here.

In regards to how to come to a decision, I am a massive fan of Richard's vision statement plan. It's simple and easy to carry out. Gather a few suggestions on the vision, vote. Then take a few suggestions about criteria for the video that follow along from that vision statement, vote.

In terms of what the video should be about, why cant we have both in a single video? (Inclusion and high quality).
Would this 2016 collab really be that much "worse" if everyone was included? I don't know what videos were submitted, but I feel if you removed a few of the high skill ones and replaced them with others, the video as a whole would not suffer 'that' much. It would still have the "Look at the amazing things diabolo players are capable of now", but with an added "We are an inclusive community, come join us".
I guess I'm proposing a vision statement that sits in between?
3 - "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo skill and creativity whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community". Something along those lines?

I also think a little editor-submitter feedback could also go a long way. If someone submitted a video of a high throw in their backyard for example, the editor could reply saying "Could you please film this again at an iconic location in your area, or get some friends and family around to cheer you on in the video", something to make it stand out. Similar can be said about camera quality, lighting etc.

I think a lot of the disappointment about not being included came from the expectation of being included. Clear guidelines (in the form of a vision statement) and editor-submitter communication should limit this disappointment.

Happy discussing,
Jordan Turley
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on December 02, 2016, 04:31:35 PM
I like the approach of Richard.

We can then make a voting with all the options and people can vote as many options as they want, and the ones that pass a certain threshold are included in the final guidelines set. Something like that?

I like this view
3 - "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo skill and creativity whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community". Something along those lines?

In general to any view I would add, ", and inviting to join", because I have that goal of attracting interes to enlarge the community.

That is why I proposed the two videos idea. The short one is for total foreigners with little time to spare. But if people mostly prefer one video to have the community spirit embedded in the project, that is fine with me. I can accept that the videos under 5 minutes, which truly have a change of getting to higher audience, come from individual players, or from smaller groups of diabolo players who carry a project together (wink, wink). Any if the big audience stays for 2 minutes or 4 from the 15 that is also fine.

I would love to see the Audience retention statistics from previous collabs, YouTube owners of the videos can show us this. I have thought of showing the one from the only collab I have edited, this one. To be honest the retention rate looks better than I expected. But well, in average people see half of the video...
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/6/5687/30567858653_851161459a_b.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZrtGwRAcc8
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Icebox on December 03, 2016, 01:55:08 PM
I like the idea of feedback from the editor prior to video release, I feel like that would be a really good way to keep the level of the video high while still being able to include as many people as possible.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Richard on December 04, 2016, 09:27:33 AM
OK, what do you think of these 3 options?

1) "To present to the world the most imaginative and best quality diabolo that diabolo.ca players can produce in the year, while encouraging non-membersto join".
2) "To create a video for diabolo.ca members (and inviting others to join), that encourages all diaboloists to participate in, regardless of skill, and be seen by the rest of the group"
3) "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo skill and creativity whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community's. Also, inviting others to join".

Additional goals (for future discussion):
- Include a 2nd 'community' video where all videos will be included.
- ensure there are clear guidelines about what is expected in the video
- provide editor-submitter feedback
- Average audience retention for YouTube videos higher than 50%?

I say we get one more 'option' and then open a voting forum? Once we get a vote, we can move onto deciding the details for next years video etc.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: samuli on December 04, 2016, 10:07:17 AM
Here's info from 2014 video

(https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/15250804_10154302561543191_2857580291446774090_o.jpg)

https://youtu.be/Pz7YeWdFkcY

Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Pieter on December 04, 2016, 11:11:59 AM
@Richard
Quote
"I say we get one more 'option' and then open a voting forum? Once we get a vote, we can move onto deciding the details for next years video etc."
@Wis
Quote
“I am just saying than the final goal, might be more subjective than rational, there may be people saying "any submission should be in", I hope they are not majority.”
Indeed that’s why voting maybe isn’t the best solution :p If everyone who’s subjective feelings are hurt by this collab, is voting for including everyone just for their own happiness this could be the wrong vision on the purpose of diabolo on the long term. I think we have to be rational about that.
People that are saying to include everyone didn't gave arguments for it, maybe voting is too easy and not rational enough...
I'm just saying, I'm just saying... don't want to thwart your plans... :)
What I would do is this: ask for argument pro or contra for any of the proposed options... I think we can find the best option by that, and then I mean the best option for diabolo and for the community.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: 7531 on December 05, 2016, 12:43:11 AM
@Richard @Wis Indeed that’s why voting maybe isn’t the best solution :p If everyone who’s subjective feelings are hurt by this collab, is voting for including everyone just for their own happiness this could be the wrong vision on the purpose of diabolo on the long term. I think we have to be rational about that.
People that are saying to include everyone didn't gave arguments for it, maybe voting is too easy and not rational enough...
I'm just saying, I'm just saying... don't want to thwart your plans... :)
What I would do is this: ask for argument pro or contra for any of the proposed options... I think we can find the best option by that, and then I mean the best option for diabolo and for the community.

The right thing is do and poll where everyone of this forum can vote. The diabolo players that think, "Oh I don t wanna be on a diabolo collaboration video with people with average diabolo level" Just make a video appart .The diabolo-ca collaboration video is for everyone on the forum, not just for the people that play more diabolos.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on December 05, 2016, 10:07:01 AM
I have no plans, Pieter, I am trying to find out what the majority wants, because I think that is the way to decide on common projects.

If there is no voting, how would we 'decide'? Just leave an open text for next editor?
Ok. But for me without voting there is no decision, there is just a subset of interested people writing and writing. And in my eyes this subset would be too small.

I agree on why the voting should look simple, as Richard said so as many people involved participate. And I think we can still give arguments pro and against the options, before the voting.

The right thing is do and poll where everyone of this forum can vote.
In my eyes stating 'the option I like is the right thing' is a great way to avoid progress.
- Pieter, maybe voting is not the best, because X
- 7531, voting is the best, because I say it
So in my eyes voting is the right thing, but trying to use voting as an excuse to avoid giving arguments before the voting is one of the most wrong things I can imagine of. I mean in the universe, as a whole. VOTING is WHY we need ARGUMENTS. So let us keep talking, there is no rush for the voting.

Anyway I guess next editors will have in mind everything that was already said...

And
The diabolo players that think, "Oh I don t wanna be on a diabolo collaboration video with people with average diabolo level" Just make a video apart .The diabolo-ca collaboration video is for everyone on the forum, not just for the people that play more diabolos.
Well, I do not like this way of putting it. There is not such well defined group of people of do not want to appear in a video with average diabolo. What there is a diabolo community that 'because in the last years the video was too long and super repetitive', lost motivation to appear, this has happened to good and bad players. I SWEAR.

For me it is crucial to remember the balance 'attractive tricks/length of the video', it is not about not wanting to appear with average people, is about keeping a balance.

This year many people are saying 'this collaboration was wonderful, amazing to watch, but it is too restrictive'. Even the people that do not appear appreciate the quality. So let us find a middle ground. Please do not make this a conflict of 'beasts' against 'kids that started to play diabolo yesterday', it is not like that.

I need to understand a bit better what 7531 is saying. Do you mean that
- Everybody should vote the rules for accepting/rejecting videos?
- Everybody that sends any video should be included at least once?
- Every second of video that is submitted to the editor needs to be included in the final footage?
- All the players submitting videos to the collab should be included and should have the same amount of seconds on screen?

Once again, I think the most relevant complaints can be addressed by
- No more than 2 videos per person
- No more than X total amount on seconds on screen (I do not care how good they are, long suicide, integral combos are horrible to watch after 2 minutes, my opinion)
- Ensuring minimum of country reps
- Ensuring minimum female representation
And once again, fulfulling this rules would probably require a modification of 0.5/1 minute in the 2016 collab.

0.5/1 minute of change and majority happy? This, dear sirs and madams is a truly fair middle ground I would say. The voting will surely prove me wrong, but I tried :)
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on December 05, 2016, 11:00:26 AM
Here's info from 2014 video
AWESOME INFORMATIVE PICTURE

Thanks a lot Rauli! I didn't expect anybody answering, you are the best :)

Unfortunately the measure I am after is not in those graphs. The one I am looking after shows, playing time in the X axes, and percentage of viewers who watch until a given playing time instant.

You need to choose Audience retention, and then select Lifetime. I hope I am not over explaining, if so, sorry. I am very curious about the 2012 profile one.

(https://c6.staticflickr.com/6/5823/31318180221_c0dcceb4f1_h.jpg)
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: samuli on December 05, 2016, 12:56:23 PM
(https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/15288458_10154305668813191_2942023654481653874_o.jpg)

https://youtu.be/Pz7YeWdFkcY
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Pau on December 06, 2016, 03:46:15 PM

Dnce again, I think the most relevant complaints can be addressed by
- No more than 2 videos per person
- No more than X total amount on seconds on screen (I do not care how good they are, long suicide, integral combos are horrible to watch after 2 minutes, my opinion)
- Ensuring minimum of country reps
- Ensuring minimum female representation
And once again, fulfulling this rules would probably require a modification of 0.5/1 minute in the 2016 collab.

0.5/1 minute of change and majority happy? This, dear sirs and madams is a truly fair middle ground I would say. The voting will surely prove me wrong, but I tried :)

We keep coming back to things like these - a set of rules - and I still think it is a good idea.

I like the no more than 2 appearances per person thing in particular. Does this include EJC/Planet diabolo/other group shots? If someone is in a group shot does that mean they can have only one individual clip in?

The country reps shouldn't be too big a problem.

Ensuring there is a number of females, older people, young people (children) could be an idea. Maybe not a a rule but as something for the editor to pay attention to. Eg by posting updates/deadlines and encouraging certain groups (eg females) to send in clips. Of course nobody can be MADE to send a clip. I just think ensuring many different groups of people send in material could me made the editor's responsibility. S/he is the one person who knows what material has been sent in so far.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on December 07, 2016, 10:13:19 AM
Thanks a million for providing that data, Samuli. I am asking editors of other years as well. Lucas said that a 30% of the video watched at the end of the video is a very good result, even for more for this kind of videos.

Pau, I agree with what you said. Some rules, some guidelines, we should be good.

In my eyes, videos where one person collaborate with other people could count as 1/3, so if you go out and meet others and make a collaboration in physical world you can appear more times. This promotes community spirit a lot, I believe.

I just watched the 18 minutes of Contact Juggling collab 2016 and it is quite repetitive, it is an all-in structure, even vertical videos. And the format is not only YT... we may consider starting to use FB in addition to YT, the difference in views is undeniable.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on December 07, 2016, 03:15:49 PM
Now, this post is not about 'How the collaboration video should look like to make diabolo players happy'.
This post continues the idea 'How to get more views? because more views mean more diabolo players in the future'.

I manged to get the data, thanks to Lucas, from our supposedly most successful collaboration of 2012.

(https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5472/30673092103_59a474431c_b.jpg)

As I expected this collaboration has the worst retention rate profile. But that is normal because it has ~1M views. That means that more people outside from the diabolo world watched it, it is not bad, it simply means that for those people is harder to watch the whole thing.

I have watched some collaboration videos from 2009, and I have tried to find differences

Year   - Length - Views     - Editor                   - Original thread                                                      - Description box
2009 - 15:02 - 20,283    - Jesse Gehlen        - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=7444  - Super complete in the forum page, even has a map
2010 - 13:31 - 18,718    - Nico Pires             - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=8665  - Pretty bare minumum
2011 -  9:09  - 12,448    - MaxMaestro          - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=9510  - Almost non-existing
2012 - 15:10 - 920,723  - Lucas Abduch      - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=10153 - Hyper - complete
2013 - 12:55 - 15,858    - Håvard Bergo       - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=10969 - Simple, no name/number of players
2014 - 12:55 -   7,082    - Rauli Katajavuori  - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=12264 - Simple, no name of players
2015 -   6:32 -   5,897    - Maxi Hof               - http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=12609 - Simple, no name of players

Other comments:
- All the views I counted are YT views, which does not account for Vimeo, or Juggling.tv (except 2009 which is only on juggling.tv)
- In 2012 there was a question to make two videos (similar level of tricks in both videos), but in general people seem to dislike that a lot. I understand that. http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=10153
- In 2012 Lucas asked for feedback for the names of the people, checking for typos. Seems that Lucas was a very feedback based editor
- In 2012 the collaboration video included some commercial value, as it was linked to Malabarize, a juggling shop. Without consulting with the public, I might add, I don't mind though
- 2014 and 2015, and maybe others, were the darker years from the collab, in the sense that elite players were not interested

My conclusions:
- Short video does not seem to be linked to more views, at least not in our range of > 5 minutes.
- I would say that skills, style and selection criteria of the editor can move us from 5,000 to 20,000 views. But not above 20,000

What is the true difference between 2012 and the other collabs?
Lucas, and his consistent approach to become a video editor. Because Lucas was already creating a consistent big base of viewers interested on juggling, our video was watched by many people. Potentially now there is somebody starting to do 4 low because he watched that video.

So what can we do if we want to get to bigger audiences?
- Get a known editor with good viewers database
- Improve our approach of distribution. e.g: sharing also on FB video, using Lucas channel as advertising with small teasers one the video is done. I want to do that for the EJC diabolo Battle as well.

My conclusion:
- We can gain a lot by improving marketing a bit.
- We can try to motivate great players to participate, it is not only job of the editor
- We could focus on having the community happy (some minimum guidelines/debate), and then parallel get to more audience improve the marketing.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: 7531 on December 07, 2016, 11:05:16 PM
So  I understand that for you is more important to get more views than the good for everyone? Views are not important,we are not pros, we re diaabolo players. Trr to get many views is like oh I want to be famous and that the people see what can I do. For me diabolo is just have fun and here it was just make a video gathering all the diaboloca community.

 ;)
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on December 08, 2016, 07:04:50 AM
I have obviously not said that. But I perfectly understand it is tempting to oversimplify a text, for both bias, or laziness. And I would not blame you too much for any of them.

I have explained why one of my goals was getting views and it does not involve me being famous. I want the community to grow, because I think that juggling brings a lot of happiness.

And it is cool to know what the video is for you, like me you have repeated yourself several times, but here we want to know what it is for everybody.

For me diabolo is just have fun and here it was just make a video gathering all the diaboloca community.

So when you say "all", you mean every person that submitted? I am asking again because the previous time I asked you did not answer.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: 5p3ak on December 10, 2016, 10:29:09 AM
+1 to the feedback based editing. Perhaps increase the time avaible to submit vidoes.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Richard on December 13, 2016, 07:16:41 PM
Hey guys,

Loving the comments and it's great to see that so many people are so passionate about this :)

I agree with Wis' comments that if we don't vote/decided as a group, we're not progressing, it's just the vision of a few of us, or the editor at the time, not the majority of the community. I say majority because it'll be impossible to please everyone with ANY decision that is made - just take a look at why we're having this debate. Clement made a decision on the direction of the collab video and there are people who don't agree with it.

The point I'm making is that this is inevitable - regardless of how fair we make a voting system, not everyone will be pleased with the outcome. However, as Jordan put it, at least we can have clear expectations.

So, I suggest that we open a voting system now, and keep voting open for a couple of months WHILE we debate. The benefit of this is that someone can be involved a little or a lot - not everyone has the time or inclination (like some of us) to trawl through lots of text to possibly change their opinion on a matter. And if this means that some won't have ALL the facts presented, so be it.

Wis, what do you think? Is it possible to open voting option that can stay open for a few months and maybe give people the option to change their vote? All we need to do is decide on the 3-5 visions.

I'd suggest using the 3 that we already have and maybe get 2 more from people - Pieter/Clement or anyone else that has a vision that doesn't look like one listed below, what would you think about presenting it?

1) "To present to the world the most imaginative and best quality diabolo that diabolo.ca players can produce in the year, while encouraging non-membersto join".
2) "To create a video for diabolo.ca members (and inviting others to join), that encourages all diaboloists to participate in, regardless of skill, and be seen by the rest of the group"
3) "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo skill and creativity whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community's. Also, inviting others to join".

Additional goals (for future discussion):
- Include a 2nd 'community' video where all videos will be included.
- ensure there are clear guidelines about what is expected in the video
- provide editor-submitter feedback
- Average audience retention for YouTube videos higher than 50%?

You may notice that I keep showing this list - I do this because otherwise, I see this conversation going in 'circles' for a long time with not much output. This isn't a criticism of anyone in this forum, it's just human nature and the way we naturally tent to behave without a few options being presented to us, to begin working on something.

Rich
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: samuli on December 13, 2016, 10:49:33 PM
I am in!

Thank's Richard.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: 7531 on December 14, 2016, 02:02:09 AM
I m tired about this thing, is impossible to have an equal solution. Doesn t worth to argue about something like this.
 So I m just going to enjoy to play diabolo for myself and maybe record short clips for instagram (@3diabolos)

Enjoy playing diabolos
 :) :)
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on December 15, 2016, 03:56:04 PM
@7531:
It is worth to me to discuss this topic, and I am glad I seem not to be alone. It is a pitty that you seem to give up on YouTube and Facebook and creating longer videos because of this discussion, but I can't understand why you decide to do so. If thinking and discussing were a reason for people to walk away, then this would be a very sad world for Wis.
Good luck with your juggling and your videos!

@Richard: I like your post a lot, Thanks!
If possible I would like to separate the goals, and put it like secondary goals, or indirect goals
- Average audience retention for YouTube videos higher than 50%?
- Include a 2nd 'community' video where all videos will be included. -> As much as I think this may help, I think little people showed interest on it... but I guess maybe voting can show something different

I like your idea of an open poll, I will try to check as soon as possible what are the technical possibilities.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Richard on December 18, 2016, 08:49:26 AM
Thanks Wis!!!

I think, yes, definitely hold onto/record those goals, as they're really good ideas :)

And thanks for looking into this - I'm sure we will be able to come to a good solution :)

Also, if you can't find an easy way to get a survey going in this forum, maybe consider using Survey Monkey or another website like that - it's free and they are set up specifically for situations like this.

Rich
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on December 20, 2016, 11:45:22 AM
Ok, I have created a poll with the visions, Duncan checked and yes we can change the vote, and I have checked that we can add more options whenever anybody wants.


There are three options concerning the privacy of the poll results
1- Show the poll's results to anyone.
2- Only show the results after someone has voted.
3- Only show the results after the poll has expired.

I have chosen the third one, to avoid people being influenced by other people choices. I could only choose the 3rd option when setting a 'Deadline' and so I have put 90 days. I can change it at any point in time.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Pieter on December 20, 2016, 03:20:25 PM
Sounds good Wis! (happy you didn't choose option 1 ;-) )

about the visions, I would like to discuss a bit about the 3rd vision because this one isn't clear for me:
"To present to the world the highest level of diabolo skill and creativity whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community's. Also, inviting others to join."
First I think it is better to switch 'skill' and 'creativity', or just skip the 'skills': "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo creativity."
Second, "...whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community's. Also, inviting others to join." what does this mean? If I should vote I don't think this would be clear to me... so I think we have to make this a bit more clear/specific, before opening the poll.

Also, can people change their mind and vote again?
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on December 20, 2016, 04:56:02 PM
Also, can people change their mind and vote again?

Yes they can, sorry I forgot to mention that.

First I think it is better to switch 'skill' and 'creativity', or just skip the 'skills': "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo creativity."
I would propose then "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo skills and/or creativity." I think feed 12345 is not very creative, but hell yeah we want it in.

Second, "...whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community's. Also, inviting others to join." what does this mean? If I should vote I don't think this would be clear to me... so I think we have to make this a bit more clear/specific, before opening the poll.

I think the meaning is clear, the 'to join what?' could be the question, but to me it is clear it means 'join the community'.

Or was your problem different? Keep in mind we will define goals afterwards...
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Pieter on December 20, 2016, 08:38:50 PM
I think the meaning is clear, the 'to join what?' could be the question, but to me it is clear it means 'join the community'.

Or was your problem different? Keep in mind we will define goals afterwards...

Yes, "portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community's" it not clear to me how we will do this, but you're right, problems for later maybe...

and about the 'skills' of course we want that in, but now it reads like "skills, and yeah creativity also". While if you say "creativity and yeah skills also", this is a different accent and I think people doing diabolo for fun only, are more likely to accept in the last order... :-)
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: The Void on December 20, 2016, 10:16:43 PM
Grammar: "an" is for a singular, so therefore: "community". The plural of "community" is "communities", but DCA is one community.
Edit: Okay, the wording is the actual poll is already singular. I was just reading the text in Wis' post. Sorry.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on December 21, 2016, 02:06:43 PM
While if you say "creativity and yeah skills also", this is a different accent and I think people doing diabolo for fun only, are more likely to accept in the last order... :-)

Done. I had missed that you wanted to swap them.

And thanks anyway, Void :)

So far two people have voted.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: samuli on December 21, 2016, 08:00:53 PM
3 votes, having no result.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Brian60158 on December 25, 2016, 04:21:56 PM
I do agree that showing high skill diabolo is very important because then it looks more appealing to an outside audience, but one problem is that choosing the high skilled players all the time basically diminishes having to send in videos. I personally would much rather focus on having any skill level in the video because there are so many people that send in clips that aren't as good as ofcourse the best people. Basically my point is that only having high level diabolo players in the video will lessen the amount of people that send in a video, it doesn't have the community aspect, and it shows people that you must be as good as those people in the video to even have a chance to be in the video. I do get that we need to have a unique and original idea(s) for the vide, but that can be done with players of any skill, you can also have it be with a theme for the video or just something to make it unique. Again though that can be done with having people of all types of skill.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: samuli on December 26, 2016, 02:05:28 PM
The people outside of diabolo culture don't understand what is difficult or what is 'innovative' and what is not either, so this  high skill thing is not valid. Red bull might be valid but even PAO isn't getting too high scores with view count.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on December 28, 2016, 11:18:03 AM
Why the fact that people outside cannot appreciate the difficulty or innovative part of the tricks makes sharing high skilled and innovative tricks worthless in your eyes?

For me it is so that even if people cannot recognize yo yo tricks, they all can feel Janos Karancz do super human stuff. And they may not be able to tell on they're own 'absolute' values of the tricks, like '5low 64 is a crazy hard trick, objectively' but they can feel if they see 2 tricks in a row which one looks harder 2low vs 3low, e.g.

Also I would say that people can recognize if they are fed too similar kind of tricks... maybe variety should be part of the vision?

But for me the need of sharing 'good' tricks comes from the community own needs, not from the outside.
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Richard on December 30, 2016, 04:56:12 PM
OK, silly question but where is the poll?

Looked everywhere.

maybe it'd be worth creating a separate thread to advertise the poll, considering there's such a low amount of people who've voted in it?
Title: Re: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Icebox on December 31, 2016, 02:00:36 AM
OK, silly question but where is the poll?

Looked everywhere.

maybe it'd be worth creating a separate thread to advertise the poll, considering there's such a low amount of people who've voted in it?

The poll's at the top of this thread.

That being said, I agree - the poll should probably have it's own thread if at all possible.
Title: Re: POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: The Void on December 31, 2016, 01:31:17 PM
I added "POLL:" to the name of this thread.
Title: Re: POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Icebox on December 31, 2016, 03:42:36 PM
Good call Void.

Make yourself heard everybody, vote at the top!
Title: Re: POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Richard on January 07, 2017, 07:23:02 AM
Thanks Void

Voted
Title: Re: POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on May 29, 2017, 11:41:41 AM
Hi people. 17 people answered this thread. You have a week more to vote and then we will analyze the results.
Title: Re: POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Anto on May 29, 2017, 06:42:04 PM
Hello,

I would have voted but it seems that the poll is closed since march :(.
Let me know if I am wrong. (maybe the poll is available to vote from another thread?).

Anto
Title: Re: POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Icebox on May 29, 2017, 11:29:37 PM
Poll's been updated to run for another week, one vote per user.
Title: Re: POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Anto on May 30, 2017, 06:49:28 AM
Thanks, voted!

Anto
Title: Re: POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on May 30, 2017, 08:50:46 AM
Uuups. Thanks, Ben, my bad.
Title: Re: POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Arjan on September 25, 2017, 02:57:34 PM
Sooo... what about this? Let's throw one together without too much pressure on anyone and just have fun with it.
Title: Re: POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?
Post by: Wis on September 26, 2017, 12:56:55 PM
Hi Arjan, thanks for pumping this.

Summary (I am on purpose simplifying some terms but feel free to complain):
- Because last year any member felt that the collaboration left too many people out, we made a survey.
- The survey was to see what are the intentions behind the collaboration video we make every year
- The result is that from the people that voted Most people think that the video should be rather inclusive, than based on skills solely.
- Unfortunately not so many people voted, but we cannot solve this.
- There was a majority of people thinking that no rules should be created based on the result.

My proposal for closing this:
- Editors have freedom to make any video they want
- Editors know that leaving people out may hurt their feelings, and that the diabolo.ca community thinks the collaboration video should not do that

So I would say that anybody willing to volunteer for a 2017 collaboration can already do it with these two things in mind. We already run out of good weather...
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