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Diabolo.ca Forums => General => Topic started by: Mick Lunzer on May 17, 2006, 05:02:54 AM

Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Mick Lunzer on May 17, 2006, 05:02:54 AM
I was listening listing to a documentry on the horrors of real genocide in Germany, Africa and the Middle East., and it occured to me that "Genocide" might be a lousy name for a such a cool diabolo trick. I used to say to **** 'em if they can't take a joke. Is it a joke? Now I am not so sure.

    I used to think "Suicide" was cool name for the trick. When people first started doing them it seemed difficult and a little risky. 15 years later its a basic trick and considered easy, hardly worth a deadly name.  Some of us have friends that have committed Suicide. Is it a good name for a diabolo trick? I don't know, but I do know when I teach young children the tricks I call them "Let goes, Fly aways, or stick releases", I got tired of having to explain to the parents later why there children are doing things called genocides or suicides.  :oops:

I think people most people understand it is just a name for the trick. And we mean no harm or offense. I have used the terms myself for 20 some years. I am not particularly offended by........................ well, much of anything.
On the other hand if someone named a trick "Date Rape" or "Woman Beater." I would not be amused. Yet is Genocide less of an offense than date rape?

I would be interested to hear the community's thoughts on this.
Does it matter?
Does anyone care?
Have you encountered someone in the public that was offended?
As a growing art, what do we want to present to the world?

By the way if Donald Grant changed the names and reprinted his books, I would still buy them all over again.

Love to hear the debate.

-Mick
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Hershey on May 17, 2006, 06:11:20 AM
I teach elementary Physical Education, and I call suicides "stick releases"  I call the Genocide the "ultimate stick release."  Duicides have become "Double stick release."  The only problem is that kids go on diabolotricks.com or in a book and see the real name and then use the real names with each other.  It does open up an interesting dialogue for me and my students.  It becomes a teachable moment.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: eggy900 on May 17, 2006, 07:19:22 AM
back in the day when i'd exclaim 'I've just pulled off a double genocide' it turned some heads and there was explaining that needed to be done.

good post btw, i never thought we'd get round to discussing the moral implications of diaboloing
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: TimEllis on May 17, 2006, 02:41:15 PM
I was always curious as to why they were named as such.  But I must ask, what is a Homicide?  The trick...   Or is that just in the title for kicks?
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Arjan on May 17, 2006, 04:02:56 PM
A catchy name for a trick is easy. But we don`t actually mean what we say when we say: I pulled a triple genocide into duicide with a fast suicide after. Then we sound like serial killers, and speaking for myself, I`m not.

The same thing: when people curse and scold, they most of the time don`t even know what they are saying.

(Xtreme)Sports or arts: a lot diciplines use words like these mentioned above to name "hard" tricks. Diabolo is not a Xtreme sport, more just an art. Sounds like we only want to be "bad" boys, or girls offcourse. But there is no wrong intention behind it.  
The trick will impress, and the name aswell.
I find the genocide a briljant name for the trick, credits to Eric.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: tomangleberger on May 17, 2006, 04:49:08 PM
I'm glad this has come up because it really bothers me.

We are lucky enough to have the leisure time and disposable income to mess around with diabolos. Meanwhile there are Darfur survivors living with memories of murder, rape and forcible expulsion from their homes who are living in refugee camps. And their are Holocaust survivors still dealing with their unspeakably terrible memories. The least we can do is not make light of their very real encounter with genocide.

I say change the name.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Matt_ on May 17, 2006, 05:41:20 PM
yeah, go change the name. then are you doing a hyperloop or a sprinkler? vertax or excalibur? let's have multiple names for everything, we'll be totally confused, but at least we'll be PC! and that's what juggling is all about, right, being PC? all jugglers just want to be mainstream, right? we all want to be recognized be society and appreciated, don't we?

a lot of words mean two things. as long as you realize:

1. a diabolo genocide is a juggling trick
2. a diabolo genocide is in no way related to a human genocide

then you will be alright. all you need to do is educate yourself. i'm sick of people euphemizing words because idiots turn it into something else. what do a lot of people wear underneath their shirts when they go to work? yeah, a wife beater. (http://www.wife-beaters.com/shirts.html) i'm pretty sure that everyone understands that when you're talking about buying a wife beater, you're talking about buying a shirt, and not about beating your wife.

come on people, have common sense. it's juggling. it's not the end of the world.

and you know what? maybe you can kill two birds with one stone by calling it genocide. you teach the kids what a diabolo genocide is, and then you teach them what a real genocide is. knowledge is power!
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Jakob on May 17, 2006, 05:54:17 PM
I don't see any logic in changing the name, and as Matt_ said, Plenty of things have more than one meaning
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: busk on May 17, 2006, 06:21:54 PM
there are people that also says ''genoside'' instead of ''genocide'' and so on..and usually they are from finland i think
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: tommi on May 17, 2006, 06:39:56 PM
Yeah, thats just because we suck at spelling.. :lol:
Title: Genocide
Post by: Mick Lunzer on May 17, 2006, 06:56:08 PM
I have been told since this post that the WJF would not allow the terms genocide and suicide during the ESPN 2 broadcasts. Is this true?
Maybe the media will be changing the names for us.

To Matt. and Jakob
Thanks for your response.
I do believe this debate is common sense. We may be setting a precedent for our art and sport. I am not a PC advocate. You don't know me personally so you will have to  trurst me on this. I am all about freedom of speech.  
To your point.  Now Genocide means two things. so does wife beater. I agree that people understand the difference especially all of us.  Should we continue  on this line and make Child Molester or Nigger killer mean two things?  Both are equally offenseive as genocide to me.
Mother ****er might be a cool name for a trick, but does it promote our art/sport?

Am I saying we should change the name? I  don't know, thats why I started this post. If we do as a community decide it's time for a change, I don't  honestly believe changing the names wold cause mass confusion for diabolists.  My common sense says we all deserve more credit than that.

Keep em comming I would love to hear from more of you

-Mick
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: frank0072 on May 17, 2006, 07:16:52 PM
very interesting topic. Since english is not my motherlanguage I am not at all offended by the words suicide and genocide. I have even been depressed for a couple of years, walking around with suicide on my mind. It does not offend me because I find it a funny name for a trick that is lethal when you can't pull it off propperly yet.
Genocides are different I think. It's not a very common thing, and it's not a thing to laugh about. Still, it's only a word for a trick that can potentially kill a few people if performed with razorblade sticks and barbed wire string...

Well, I don't know. These were just my thoughts. I would agree to change the names, if it really offends people. But, there has to be an exeptionally good substitute for the names...
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: fredo on May 17, 2006, 07:33:04 PM
Using trick names like that isn't a problem for me...Of course, as it has been said before, it's because I don't live in an english-speaking country - so no one cares about a name or simply doesn't think about it...and speaking for myself, I teach it to all little children with these names and I have got no ethnic problems, as I would never refer it to a human suicide/genocide...

EDIT - btw, what is a human genocide???
Title: Genocide.............
Post by: Mick Lunzer on May 17, 2006, 07:41:38 PM
One reason I am curious about this topic is because of a personal experience. About ten years ago I invented a series of yoyo tricks.
I competed with them, the main trick was put in a book and a couple of yo yo magizines.   I had to have a name for it and I wanted to call it something clever. I called it Buddah's Revenge.  I thought it was cool cause the trick repeated itself (reincarnated) and I thought it was funny because buddists are pacificts and would never look for revenge. I didn't think much of the name, but the trick and the name caught on.
The trick spawned many children. Buddha's Bounce, Black Buddah, White budda's,  Budda's Fury, ect...

About a year later a Japanese man, aproached me and asked me why I named it Buddah'a revenge. I told him that I thought it was funny. He told me he was a Buddist and he did not think it was funny. Neither did a lot of other Buddists from Japan where yoyos are exremely popular.

I apologized and said I meant no offense. He said "I understand and it's too late to do anything abot it now. Everyone will call it that now, there is no going back and it's a little sad, but" he smiled "Buddists have a sense of humor too."

It really is just a yoyo trick, not the end of the world. It did make me think about how we name our tricks and who we alienate.
I wanted a cool name for my trick, I didn't want to offend a religion or nation. I am glad they are pacifists.

So that is a little backround of why I think this debate is important. When our art grows we all benefit. Should our terms be inclusive or do we say Screw you if you don't have a sense of humor?

By the way I am thinking of calling my new yoyo trick "Shiva's Crucifiction on Haunakah"

-Mick
Title: Genocide
Post by: Mick Lunzer on May 17, 2006, 07:44:57 PM
Fredo

Human Genocide is the murder of an entire people, Killing off an entire race or ethnic group.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Ceri-Anne on May 17, 2006, 07:47:53 PM
I don't agree at all that trick names like those mentioned aren't offensive in non-English countries. Generally speaking, Dutch people speak and understand the English language pretty well, so very many people will understand the words "suicide" and "genocide". Perhaps even because they're none-native speakers, they will misunderstand it and think you're talking about something else than a diabolo trick.

I myself am not offended by these trick names. But I have met some people who were looking at me in a very weird way when I told them that my suicide attempts weren't very successful yet or that I had pulled off my first genocide. As said before, when you're teaching, and children (and their parents) are involved, I'd prefer using different names. That way, you won't be blamed. :wink:  :P

Anyway, no need to change the names, but be aware when and to who you're using them.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Chiok on May 17, 2006, 08:04:12 PM
@ Tim Ellis: A homocide was an old skool trick when a spectator held an object like a cigarette or newspaper in their mouth and you did a suicide to knock it out.  It's the potential to hit someone other than yourself.

An interesting discussion.  The name was not derived for corporate gain (I don't think) so things like politically correct names and such were not an issue.  But then mistakes are made, what does SEGA say to the Italians?  I believe its a name that has come about from a general concensous where people seem satisfied.

I think "stick release" has become the norm for describing the trick to todays society because things have changed and people aren't as opened minded as before.  I agree with Matt_ however that you either take it or leave it and people can decide to show their own levels of tolerance.  I think we all know when a person has malicious intentions so otherwise, let's all be cool and open!

Good discussion though Mick.

(does "duicide" also drum up anti-semetic thoughts? [not the intention though I don't think])

Chiok
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Jakob on May 17, 2006, 08:10:39 PM
Quote from: Ceri-Anne
I'd prefer using different names. That way, you won't be blamed. :wink:  :P
Yes .. give them animal names :D a guy from my class new Forced sun as "the rabbits escape over the fence"  :lol:

(This is NOT an attempt to get the names changes, just a funny image in my head(http://diabolo.ca/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif))
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Arjan on May 17, 2006, 09:56:38 PM
Okay obviously when names been giving to tricks, and they integrated in the scene there is no way to change back. But why should we? Come on get some sense of humor.

Or would you like to hear instead of genocide: diabolo throw due to fast stickrelease, stick release makes a revolution to catch the diabolo in a wrap.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Ceri-Anne on May 17, 2006, 10:01:57 PM
Quote from: Arjan
Okay obviously when names been giving to tricks, and they integrated in the scene there is no way to change back. But why should we? Come on get some sense of humor.

True, it's integrated, use the words, I don't care, I'm not offended. I just focussed on the (in my opinion) wrong idea that non-English people don't understand the words "suicide" or "genocide".
Title: Re: Genocide
Post by: Matt_ on May 17, 2006, 10:17:24 PM
Quote from: Mick Lunzer
Should we continue  on this line and make Child Molester or Nigger killer mean two things?  Both are equally offenseive as genocide to me.
Mother ****er might be a cool name for a trick, but does it promote our art/sport?


you just have to think, well where can i draw the line? how do you feel about genocide (armenian peoples in 1915, perhaps) compared to hmm, the holocaust? there is no trick called the Holocaust but there could be...

there is a trick in club juggling called the "oh****". it's when you catch a club on the wrong end, quickly say "oh ****" and then switch it back. obviously, we can see that's a swear word, and most kids arent gonna be like "hey mom, check out 4 club continuous oh****s!" i remember when i originally saw this trick by Matt Hall, it was in high school, and during class. he just called them "oh darns". makes sense, right?

i think that in society, we give little importance to the specific terms suicide, homicide, and genocide (duicide isnt even a real word, by the way). you hear of suicide and homicide on the daily news, its not a big deal. honestly, i believe that those are fairly common and tame words in the american vernacular. same with my wife beater example, everyone knows what it is.

i guess my point is that all of the -cide words that we use in diabolo have been heard so much by the public that we are desensitized. almost no one reacts to the use of genocide in a juggling context. i'm not saying to take every single swear word possible and try to make a secret meaning for it in juggling, nor am i saying that we should try to make juggling as offensive as possible. these terms for tricks are old, man, its not like someone made these up last week. the -cide suffix has come to mean some sort of stick release, so that's the way it is. i think that in the future, when inventing new tricks, you should try to make something cool but not extreme or boundary pushing. look at Sean's trick of the week a while back, "the propellor". thats a pretty modest name. it has stick releases, but he didnt call it like "deicide" or anything.

i do wonder though, how many people would be offended if i called a new trick the Deicide...most people dont even know what that means, yet if i did, im sure they'd be much more offended at that than suicide  :roll:
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: eggy900 on May 17, 2006, 10:30:21 PM
this topic has exploded!

i don't think it would be possible to change the name of a trick, probably less than 10% of diaboloers use this forum so an official announcement here would be no good,

to change it; all diabolo books dvds and videos would have to be edited and and a new disclaimer would have to be provided with new diabolo purchases. which just isn't feasible for manufacturers etc

and even if it was 'officially' changed people would still call it a genocide.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Jakob on May 17, 2006, 10:38:29 PM
Hasn't this gone to far enough? :?
In case not:  Here is a list of potential Diabolo-trick-names (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/-cide)  :wink:
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: nicoli on May 17, 2006, 10:56:43 PM
how about we just start abreviating it to a G, like with mini-G. diabolists would know what it meant and outsiders wouldn't get offended. Also, its a simple enough change that i think it might catch on.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Mr_Mistoffelees on May 17, 2006, 11:01:58 PM
Quote
i do wonder though, how many people would be offended if i called a new trick the Deicide...most people dont even know what that means, yet if i did, im sure they'd be much more offended at that than suicide :roll:


I agree with this, they would be much more offended.  Also, the trick would be associated with the name of the black metal band "Deicide", which I guess could be where you thought of the name from?  If we look at an example of their song title "Kill The Christians" then it's obvious that deicide would likely be offensive to many people, as it would be associated.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: seán_ on May 18, 2006, 01:39:14 AM
This topic came up on Jongle a while back, (http://www.jongle.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=142559#142559)

This were two of  my comments I would like to add to this topic

Quote

(clip my very poor french)

Suicide (shortened from attempted suicide)
Armicide
Stickocide
Legocide
Duocide
Omegacide (cradle to duocide)
Slowicide (usually slow suicide)
Flipcide (like a genocide but catch the handstick before the diabolo lands)
Whipcide (like flipcide but catch the diabolo with a whip catch)
Genocide
Overcide (simillar to a genocide but catch the diabolo from above)
Mini Genocide
Tomicide

Plusieurs de ces tours ont été inventés par Robert Biegler, Bruce Wilson, Donald Grant entre autres. Tous tours excepté le Tomocide et peut-être le mini g ont été inventés avant 1995


Seán

What does génocyraptor mean?

As has been mentioned above there is a reason behind the name and it isn't meant to be disrespectfull.
Genocide has been the name of this trick for 10 years. It does not seem to have problem before, I dont see why it should be a problem now.
A bit of common sense when you talk of it might be needed (such as with your grandmother). potentially shorten the name if it troubles you to geno ('Genno') and Mini Genocide to MiniG but to change the name completly leads to confussion and is in itself disrespectfull to the person who named the trick as it could be also seen as an attempt to claim the trick.
There is a reason behind the naming of the trick and it follows the tradition of naming that particular family of tricks that include (see above the list that would not translate very well. All those tricks except the Tomocide and maybe the mini g were invented and named before 1995)
Many of these tricks were invented by Robert Biegler, Bruce Wilson, Donald Grant amongst others


and
Quote
In diabolo it is slightly different, I believe that suicide got the name, in part, from the english phrase to do something risky as in
'it would be suicidal to try that' at the time to risk letting go of one handstick would be 'suicidal'.

To throw the diabolo and catch it with a swinging stick and string (as in a genocide) would be such an extremely risky thing to do that it required a name, related to a word ending in 'cide' and seen to be an extreme thing. Hence an extreme trick and an extreme name but as a play on words that the British like so much.

This is the explanation I have heard, I will try and talk to some people who were around at the time who might have further knowlege to see If my understanding is correct.


Donald and I talked about this a bit ago, he could give you a definitive answer to the naming (mines off but not in spirit) It wasnt meant to be an offensive name, just a powerfull name for powerfull tricks

Quote from: nicoli
how about we just start abreviating it to a G, like with mini-G. diabolists would know what it meant and outsiders wouldn't get offended. Also, its a simple enough change that i think it might catch on.


Not for me thankyou. I'm happy with what it has been called for over a decade
Title: Genocide
Post by: Mick Lunzer on May 18, 2006, 02:08:54 AM
Great thoughts all around!

Matt, Good coments on the -cide suffix, Thanks

I don't think something is inherintly good just because it has been around for ten years. I am still neither for or against the name changes, but to argue against change because of longevity or difficulty seems well.. weak. Check out Gahndi  or Lincon on this one.

Still looking for answers on two questions

Did ESPN ban the names for broadcast?

Do the names hurt or support our art or are they irrelevent.

I talked to a couple of parents at the circus school today. It mattered to them a lot.

Are there other sports that have delt with this? Skate boarding or Bmx for example?

-Mick
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: seán_ on May 18, 2006, 03:34:23 AM
I'm not saying it is inheritently good because it has been around for ten years. I'm saying that the etymology of the cide named tricks is a sound one full of puns and references.
Taken in isolation or if an issue is made of it you could garner a more emotional response than I have came across.

Does it hurt our sport/art/thing? Not necessarily.
Could it hurt our sport/art/thing? It could if the issue is forced.

On the Skateboarding/bmx front, I've been out of the scene for a while but I do recall these examples

Skateboarding-
Sex change: A kickflip with a body varial.
Bastard Plant: A backside boneless to fakie. -we just didnt mention these to our parents
Christ Air: Bs air, nose grab both feet of and extended in the shape of a crucifix, some trouble with the religious types at one point, neatly finessed by the alternative explanation that its Inventor was Christ-ian Hosoi
Gay Twist: fakie 360 with a mute grab, gay because it wasnt the full 540 twist, not my favourite name but I lived with it ( I seem to recall at least thelast two and maybe the first being used by comentators on the Xgames (espn/expn)

Sean Penn: the backside (much more difficult) version of a Maddonna (frontside air, nose grap, foot off, slapping the tail on re-entry) the name derives from Penns spousal abuse of Madonna (beats a maddona) again I was not comfortable with this name for especially as unlike the genocide, this name was chosen with malice.

Skateboarders
Natas Kaupas
I recall a drive to boycott Trasher magazine in the late eighties/early nineties(?) because it continued to champion a skateboarder who blatently used an anagram of satan as his nickname (religious types again). They backed down upon learning that Natas had been named by his eastern european parents who had been expecing a girl that they had planned to name Natasha, used to the name by the birth they shortened it to Natas.

BMX
a series of faltalnd tricks from the US with 'spastic' in the name. No fuss in the magazines (us based) I had this explained to me that it was a more acceptable word in the US (I dont know the truth of this). I know that in the UK it is not considered a word to be used in polite society. No backlash
A disaster (intentional bike hangup on vert) variation where the front peg was on the coping. It was called the Lockerbie after the Pan Am Lockerbie bombing. Again a name chosen with malice and one that did not stick for long.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Mick Lunzer on May 18, 2006, 04:03:07 AM
Good points Sean. ( kudos to you for using the word etymology in a sentence on a Diabolo website.) You makes a lot of sense. Maybe I am forcing the issue too much myself, or creating an issue when there is none. My curiosity does get the best of me sometimes. Still I think it is an interesting debate.

Did the media change the skateboarding names for broadcasting or names of tricks in other sports??

Might it eventually change ours the same way?

-Mick

ps
Sean I can't figure how to get the   ` above the "A" in your name, my apologies :oops:
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: seán_ on May 18, 2006, 04:49:17 AM
The skateboard names went out as is, which surprised me, Sean Penn if you dont know the history is innocuous, sex change and gay twist are a bit more blatant.

The one big Espn name change travesty to hit us has been the change from Pirouette to 360 ;)

I think at the level we would expect to see in the WJF it would be rare to see an isolated genocide more likely a combo trick that the name would get lost in the mix or be naturally shortened or skipped just like most of us do when talking about tricks, not out of any conscious effort to be pc but just natural usage

I really cant see it being a problem unless its highlighted. I think the only time i have had to explain the reasoning on the genocide name (for someones interest not to justify it as such) i used the above, 'it would be suicidal..' line and it was accepted in the spirit it was offered.

Dont worry about the accent Mick, I seem to have lost it since I moved from home
I think its ctrl alt a, I'm on linux so I havent a clue how to do it myself. I'll answer to sean or Sean_ if that helps.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Matt_ on May 18, 2006, 04:54:52 AM
Quote from: Mr_Mistoffelees
I agree with this, they would be much more offended.  Also, the trick would be associated with the name of the black metal band "Deicide", which I guess could be where you thought of the name from?  If we look at an example of their song title "Kill The Christians" then it's obvious that deicide would likely be offensive to many people, as it would be associated.


yeah i actually was thinking of Deicide when i wrote that, i actually listen to them :P there are a ton of other -cide words, but that was the first that came to my head.

Quote
Do the names hurt or support our art or are they irrelevent.


i think they are irrelevant. if you choose to not be a part of any sport simply because of the names of the tricks, then you are very, very closed minded.

no one really gives a crap if you decide to call genocides "happy spinny rainbows", you can do whatever you want. of course, when diaboloists get together to talk, the term "genocide" is used. i think it's irrelevant, because it's harmless. we're talking about a stick release here, not the annihilation of a nation; as long as you understand that, then there's really no harm. that's my main point, those last two sentences (just trying to make it very clear).
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: frank0072 on May 18, 2006, 07:12:29 AM
I totally agree with Matt_, and I would find Deicide very offensive, since I am a christian. I can think of people who would find Diabolo very offensive too. Some people think diabolo means something as 'devil', because of the background of the word. Diabology is a study of the devil if I recall well.
So what I am trying to say is just the same as Matt_ did. Just because some people even think the word 'diabolo' has something to do with the devil shouldn't mean we change that one too. It a foundation of our art, just as the suicide and genocide.
I hope I expressed myself well in english..
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: wooftang on May 18, 2006, 05:00:02 PM
i was just loking at the -cide references and i thought of a trick that you people who can do diabolo well (mainly all of you except me :wink: )
could do a liberticide like something were you wrap yourself up so you cannot move (ie. not having the liberty to move) then doing some crazy suicide out
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: fadge on May 18, 2006, 05:49:40 PM
@frank, i get people saying diabolo means devil but the funny thing is, it doesn't. Diablo means devil, but I think you are right about the diabology that does seem to mean the study of the devil.

Also I was a bit confused about deicide? But is it about the murder of a deity? thats what i figured.

I do find it quite pointless to change names for things like this, the reason people may get offended is because they don't understand. If they spent the time to understand what they hear rather than jugde early and get angry about it we could still live in a world that isn't controlled by stupid politically correct bullsh*t.

anyway, rant over.

On another note, the Buddahs revenge is a cool trick, I was well chuffed when i learnt it!!

Cool topic.

Fadge
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Matt_ on May 18, 2006, 08:55:49 PM
fadge, the dictionary is your friend (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deicide), so use it :P
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: fadge on May 18, 2006, 08:58:22 PM
thanks matt_, atleast my guess was right, lol.

well i guess we could also name a trick regicide and see whether anyone get hung for treason.....
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: martijn on May 18, 2006, 09:43:46 PM
I like the idea of a cybercide! Let's kill this topic!!! :P

Really, it's just a name. Giving names to tricks is stupid anyways.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: frank0072 on May 18, 2006, 10:33:24 PM
I think this is a very interesting topic. We should not kill it and post silly names for tricks. Finally there is a serious topic about something that can be very concerning for people.
So keep your silly-names-posts to yourself or start a "WOW! I have found a silly name for a trick"- topic.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: fadge on May 18, 2006, 10:38:31 PM
lighten up dude, i had a serious point as well don't you know, i just thought i'd try and lighten the mood. but evidentlly this shows the mentality of people who can seem to get annoyed by names of tricks.

IMO

i respect this thread its the only serious one on this forum that has any emotion included in it. and some mild humour provided by me martijn. lol  :D

Fadge
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Matt_ on May 19, 2006, 12:53:54 AM
Quote from: Martijn
Really, it's just a name. Giving names to tricks is stupid anyways.


well, if tricks didnt have names, then how would we refer to them? tricks have to have some sort of a name, so we at least know what we're doing and can describe it to other people.

in the yoyo world, you're expected to make up your own tricks for routines. like, entirely create brand new tricks if you make a routine. and people make up their own names. as such, no one knows what the hell anyone is talking about. it's a pretty sad status.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: tomangleberger on May 19, 2006, 03:13:19 AM
One reason I never brought this up before is that I knew a lot of folks wouldn't take it seriously. And that's what's happening.

Being told to "lighten up" "it's just a name" or "get a sense of humor" would be fine if the trick was called almost anything else.

Frankly, no one should have a sense of humor when it comes to the subject of genocide.
The concern here is that we're using a horrible word casually. And thus the word loses its power. Plus, we disrespect people who are the victims of real genocides past and present.

 Truthfully though the word has already lost its power. We learned months ago about the genocide in Darfur and George Bush still hasn't done a damn thing about it.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: JGherkin on May 19, 2006, 07:47:55 AM
I've read, understood and accepted the majority of arguments put forward here, both for and against the socially sensitive trick names.  But, surely the most important one I've picked up on is that none of these tricks we were originally talking about were named maliciously.  We did not call the genocide the genocide because we wanted to create a link between that trick and the extinction of a race or ethnic group.

Language is merely a tool created by us for describing our environment, our surroundings and events.  The same words are often used to refer to completely different things and this is where the power of context comes in.  Take the english spoken language, knight and night sound exactly the same, now say somebody dressed up as a knight and slaughtered loads of people, undoubtably their friends and family would associate this kind of event with the concept of a knight, does that mean to avoid upsetting them when we're talking about nighttime we change the word used to describe this time of day because they are essentially the same word when spoken?

My point here is that you have to take these things in the context their given, now if somebody pulled off a genocide in front of the persecuted race in Darfur of course it would be unacceptable to yell out "YES!! I finally succeeded with my attempts of genocide!".  This is adding yet another context to our language, now you have a term being used in an unrelated context but in a completely inappropriate situational context..

So, going back to the fact that our language is simply used as a means to describe our surroundings, environment and events, I feel it is acceptable to use these unrelated terms in a situation seperate from those in which the mention of the word would obviously cause harm or grief of some sort.  The only harm it is possible to cause is in the misunderstanding of the way in which we use the terms, in which case simple education of the history behind the names should be far more applicable than changing the term completely.

Hope you all can see what I was trying to put across here even though I may have got myself caught up a little and confused various matters I was bringing up lol.  But this is my point of view for you all, enjoy..

EDIT: O and about the sense of humour thing, I don't think that is what is necessarily required as describing it in this way does put across an element of disrespect.  As opposed to a sense of humour to deal with this I would say people more need a sense of understanding of both our meaning behind the name and also of the very nature of language and its purpose within human society.  Sure, the emotions associated with a given subject can transfer to the word itself but this is where they should stop, instead of transferring them to an unrelated subject as well.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Matt_ on May 19, 2006, 06:52:20 PM
Quote from: tomangleberger
Frankly, no one should have a sense of humor when it comes to the subject of genocide.
The concern here is that we're using a horrible word casually.


then what should we do? cower under the voracious power of a word? i've known what a genocide is for years, and i certainly don't want that here in our nation, but when i learned how to do this trick, i didnt even associate it.

it's like videogames and violence. is it wrong to kill people? the general consensus among the world's peoples is yes, it is. but we do it in videogames all the time, right? so does that mean videogames are evil because they let you do a hideous act? as long as you realize that a videogame is not real life, you'll be fine. same thing with these words for tricks. as long as you realize that a diabolo genocide is not the genocide of a nation, you should be alright.

if you dont realize that, you are a child. when i mention a ****, what do you think of? perhaps i can **** my gun, or i'm talking of a male chicken. if you think of a elephant, then your brain is on the wrong track. in fact, there are many normal words that are vulgar slang. but does that mean your children shouldn't be exposed to things like that? like i said, as long as you can realize the difference between two words, you'll be ok.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Mr_Mistoffelees on May 19, 2006, 07:00:35 PM
I'm not going to write another essay, so just a quick question here, to do with diabologists, and diabolists.  I think the first = us, in the sense of "juggling" with the diabolo.  The second is those that worship the devil.  Diabologists take part in diabology.  Saying this, what do diabolists do?  Diaboly?  Cos that just doesn't sound right to me.  Are both diabology?

EDIT: diabology noun. The study of the Devil and his role in religion, culture, and psychology.

So it's yet another case of bow and bow.  One to be what an archer uses, or a bow-tie, and the other to take a bow.  Isn't english wonderful...?
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: fadge on May 19, 2006, 07:52:32 PM
The english language is a bit odd at times isn't it. seeing as there is an infinite ammount of words that could be made why decide to make words have two meanings. But what the hell, we can't go re-writing the dictionary now can we.

fadge
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Chiok on May 19, 2006, 11:27:41 PM
When my fianceé first heard me talking about a "duicide" to a friend, she thought it was a fairly unsubtle word to be using.  However I can understand the etemology or "genocide" in terms of the diabolo move.  All from "suicide" and then "duicide" or "duo" then "genocide" for the ultimate.  If it really bothered the person that named it, they probably would have named it differently (like "ultimate suicide" as was suggested).  But it has a degree of logic behind it, not malice.

As for taking the power from the word, I think the word could never describe the ordeals experienced by the victims so the word has no power in my mind.  It's similar to how I believe racism is given power by those who won't talk about it or avoid it.  

Again, interesting responses by everyone.

Chiok
Title: Hitler for WJF champion 2007!!
Post by: William on May 20, 2006, 06:08:17 AM
Some people are going to start thinking Hitler was a great Diaboloist.. :roll:
Title: Re: Hitler for WJF champion 2007!!
Post by: Matt_ on May 20, 2006, 06:57:53 AM
Quote from: Willzy
Some people are going to start thinking Hitler was a great Diaboloist.. :roll:


you'd be an idiot to make that association based on the name of a trick.
Title: Brewing a Storm in a teacup!!
Post by: William on May 20, 2006, 12:11:02 PM
Quote from: Matt_
Quote from: Willzy
Some people are going to start thinking Hitler was a great Diaboloist.. :roll:


you'd be an idiot to make that association based on the name of a trick.

Indeed. But with all this talk about trick names and their problems.. I don't think that its a big deal, If people make a funny expression when you tell them that you failed your suicide attempt or whatever, Just explain to them that its only a Diabolo trick! Its that simple and there wasn't really any need for all this talk on it. Well, some people might of thought that it was necessary but everyone has their own opions, as we all already know..
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Matt_ on May 20, 2006, 05:09:07 PM
wait wait wait, i need to make something clear. do you people REALLY shout out "ARGH I MISSED MY SUICIDE ATTEMPT!" or something like that? because from what i've heard, people are trying to make "excuses" for saying something about doing a suicide, which is....ridiculous.

i've diaboloed a lot for other people, in front of other people, and around other people. and i never say what the trick names are, that's just pointless. if people ask, i tell them. and you know what? i've never had any offense taken by people when i tell them the names of tricks. ever.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: tomangleberger on May 21, 2006, 06:56:33 PM
Quote from: Matt_
i've diaboloed a lot for other people, in front of other people, and around other people. and i never say what the trick names are, that's just pointless.


At least we can agree on something! Can't stand hearing a juggler list his tricks. "And here's Mills Mess..."


But I'm not really worried about offending other people. I simply find the word "genocide" repugnant to me personally, sort of like Norbi's sig.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: frank0072 on May 21, 2006, 07:53:14 PM
I agree with people too that it is pointless to name your tricks in front of people. When I 'perform' I just do some tricks and blow them away :p, no need to tell them what I did exactly and how it's called, they won't understand anyways.
Title: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: diplodicai on May 22, 2006, 05:37:32 AM
Changing the name of a trick isn't going to change the rest of the world or erase the past. Making an association between flipping what to most is a giant egg cup off a string bears no relation to mass murder and combat zones. It is self evident. Changing a term used in a completely different context is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: onewheeldave on June 21, 2007, 01:43:20 AM
I stumbled across this thread on a search for something else, nut it's an issue I'd been thinking of starting a thread on so it's good to see it's been discussed before.

Also good to see that others feel as uncomfortable as I do about using terms like 'suicide' or 'genocide' when doing workshops for children.

That's not because I'm under the delusion that these terms were created with any malicious intent- I know that no offense was meant by those who coined the terms.

Nevertheless, I'm still never going to use the term 'genocide' to describe a diabolo trick to a group of primary school kids.

For 'suicide' I use 'stick release', partly cos there's always a chance that a kid in the group may have had a relative commit suicide, partly cos, personally, i think 'stick release' is also a lot more descriptive of the move.

'Genocides' never come up, cos I can't do them :)

Having said that, I'm happy for diabolists to use those terms and, when amongst diabolists, I often use them myself, so I wouldn't go for a PC approach of trying to bar use of the terms.

But i think it's only fair that it's recognised that, in some circumstances, there are issues with use of those terms and hopefully a welcoming approach to alternatives like 'stick release'.

If, during a workshop, a kid pointed out that the trick I'm calling a 'stick release' is one he/she thought was called a suicide, I'd be happy to say that 'yes', 'suicide' is the traditional name for the trick, but, given the other meaning of the term and its potential for causing upset, that I personally prefer the alternative name of 'stick release'.

When it comes to 'genocide', personally I'm not going to get into a discussion of that with primary school kids, I think the term 'genocide' for a diabolo trick is innapropriate- I understand that it's simply an extension on the 'suicide' theme, but, given that we're adults, I would like to think that the originators of the term could have had a bit more sensitivity.

But I guess that those of us who live in a part of the world where adults have the luxory of spending free-time diabolo-ing, don't appreciate the reality of the term 'genocide' in the way that those less fortunate do.

Nevertheless, it's established now and it's not likely to go away, so I'm OK with it being used by those who've adopted it.

I also refuse to refer to 'cigar boxes' as 'cigar boxes' (in workshops with children), on the grounds that the modern props have nothing to do with cigars and, cos I don't want to associate circus skills with smoking.

However, i'm not entirely happy with the term 'juggling boxes' either, so any suggestions are welcome :)

Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Shinta on June 21, 2007, 10:31:52 AM
Interesting thread, I've always wondered why these tricks are called this way, if it was any reference to life or if the "creators" of the tricks just thought it was an appropriate name.

I have always used the term "suicide" when i do them and i have had no problems so far, but a kid came up to me and asked "suicide? why is it called that way? did the maker(yes, he said MAKER) of the name kill himself?".

I was stunned by that question, packed my diabolo and went away.

It's disturbing how children who have no experience in diabolo remember of these things when they hear the names for the first time.

I call them stick-releases when I'm doing diabolo in front of little kids or just people who have no experience in diabolo whatsoever, and use the term "suicide"(and other names related to suicides) when I'm practicing with experienced people.

A rename right now will cause confusion among the "older" diaboloists since they are used to those names, and we would have to change the names on books and websites as well.

In my opinion: use "suicide" when talking to people who are used to it, call it "stick release" or something related to the trick when teaching children or just showing how it's done.
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: William on June 21, 2007, 11:10:51 AM
The person probably didn't put much though into it. At the time it was thought, of the trick probably seemed like an insane 'suicidal' trick.
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: onewheeldave on June 21, 2007, 01:04:45 PM
Interesting thread, I've always wondered why these tricks are called this way, if it was any reference to life or if the "creators" of the tricks just thought it was an appropriate name.

I have always used the term "suicide" when i do them and i have had no problems so far, but a kid came up to me and asked "suicide? why is it called that way? did the maker(yes, he said MAKER) of the name kill himself?".

I was stunned by that question, packed my diabolo and went away.

It's disturbing how children who have no experience in diabolo remember of these things when they hear the names for the first time.

I call them stick-releases when I'm doing diabolo in front of little kids or just people who have no experience in diabolo whatsoever, and use the term "suicide"(and other names related to suicides) when I'm practicing with experienced people.

A rename right now will cause confusion among the "older" diaboloists since they are used to those names, and we would have to change the names on books and websites as well.

In my opinion: use "suicide" when talking to people who are used to it, call it "stick release" or something related to the trick when teaching children or just showing how it's done.

We live in a culture with a high suicide rate, so it is likely that one or two of the children in any group are going to have a member of their family/extended family/family friend who's killed themselves and, to them, 'suicide' applied to a diabolo trick is going to sound a bit darker.

We also get a fair number of immigrants in schools and, particularly in the case of asylum seekers, the word 'genocide' is going to be bad because either they or their family could well be in this country precisely because they were the intended victims of a real genocide.

Personally I disagree that 'stick release' is going to cause confusion amongst 'older' diabolists, unlike 'suicide', 'stick release' is a pretty descriptive trick.

Even if it does cause a bit of confusion amongst older diaboloists, I prefer that to causing genuine pain to a 8 year old whose cousin killed themselves last month, wondering why his/her circus skills tutor is going on about suicides.

Thanks for posting your example- as circus skills instructors dealing with large classes, with little time to do anything than teach the skills , we rarely get to know what kids really feel about use of these terms.
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: OhDearMoshe on June 21, 2007, 02:44:39 PM
Well there is a degree of where and when to use the names. Most of the adult world would realize that its just the name of a trick and no offense is meant. However I also agree with when dealing with the younger generation some for of discretion is applied.

A few weeks ago (Oh I'm going to get slaughtered for this) me and my friend were putting on an act of dueling Diabolo'ists. Anyway we would have one person do a trick then the other person would make a witty remark about what the other person did. Anyway one of the tricks was a Mini Gen and the remark was "Oh, a Mini Genocide. Aptly named for removing what little audience you had built up!". This could be considered a bit of a bad taste joke and therefore a bit out of place and would be quite cruel to some of the audience(The Witty remarks have since been removed from our piece especially as the theme of the show we were going for was meant to be world peace).
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: William on June 22, 2007, 11:41:35 AM
Simply call a Genocide an "Off string stick release" unless you have a better idea.

Slightly Off Topic:
This could be considered a bit of a bad taste joke and therefore a bit out of place and would be quite cruel to some of the audience(The Witty remarks have since been removed from our piece especially as the theme of the show we were going for was meant to be world peace).

If you want to do something like that (competition) Have a look at Antonin and Erik's section in Diabology- "Baguettes et Diabolos" They do a similar thing as in they do a trick then look at the other with an expression like "Yeah, try and beat that!" So you don't even need to say anything vocally.
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: jaigoda on June 28, 2007, 06:04:57 PM
I would agree that around children the term "stick release" would be more appropriate, but if you're around other adults or diaboloists, why wouldn't you just say "suicide?" Anyone sensible would know that it's just a trick name. And anyway, when are you going to go around saying "suicides own!" or something along those lines? Also, there are tons of other things that use "suicide" for their names. A mix of different fountain drinks, and one-man relay races or whatever (run to first line, run back, run to second line, run back, etc.) immediately come to mind. And I understand that genocide might be a little sensitive for a trick, but I think most people would understand that it's nothing more than a trick. If you need to explain why it was named that, so be it; that's 15 seconds of your life educating someone.
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: diabolo store on July 07, 2007, 02:56:10 AM
diaboloing is already so unpopular. u start giving offending names and people'll think diaboling is some dark art or criminal/ terrorist sport
i think we sould have a diabolo.ca poll to rename all the offending tricks!!! no joke
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: William on July 07, 2007, 05:51:04 AM
I don't. You cant just simply rename a trick. People will still go by that name no matter what.
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Niclas on July 07, 2007, 07:17:26 AM
i think we sould have a diabolo.ca poll to rename all the offending tricks!!! no joke
Bad idea.
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Shaun on July 07, 2007, 09:45:38 AM
i like the names because of the reaction new people get when they hear them. Will's right, even if we change the name here, there are still hundreds/thousands of diaboloists (not on diabolo.ca) who will use the original name. too confusing
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Valium on July 08, 2007, 11:18:07 AM
diaboloing is already so unpopular. u start giving offending names and people'll think diaboling is some dark art or criminal/ terrorist sport
i think we sould have a diabolo.ca poll to rename all the offending tricks!!! no joke
how ridiculous is that  :P

mod edit - added "ridiculous"
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Arjan on July 09, 2007, 10:14:43 PM
Okay I'm questioning the use of this discussion. People just don't agree. And I think it's very important people have different opinions.

A lot of people gave their opinion in this topic, pro or con.

The names of tricks are clear for us, we know by the names what we are actually talking about, and I'm sure most people here understand if I use the word suicide in a diabolo context that I'm actually not talking about the real deal.

And for people who don't know squat about diabolo, why would they be interested in knowing the names of tricks we are pulling of in front of them? They are pretty amazed when you pull a genocide, but no one ever asked me about the names of tricks which I'm performing in front of them. Why should they?

And let's look at other pop hobby's or extreme sports like skateboarding, extreme motor cross or anything that's in that region, I think the tricks in those activities also have pretty offending names. Tell me if I'm wrong about that please.

Giving something a kewl name is part of the specifications of a subculture. A subculture needs it's own language and slang, there is nothing wrong with that. Only the subcultures should understand that this language is only of value within it's members.

People don't understand why we play diabolo in the first place, so why would they even give a **** about sh*t like this?

I actually question if we ourselves really know why we are playing diabolo? But that's a different tough more interesting discussion.
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: -Leo- on July 09, 2007, 10:24:15 PM
I'm glad someone took the time to post that: Thanks Arjan!

I'm sure most people here understand if I use the word suicide in a diabolo context that I'm actually not talking about the real deal.
I love the the way you phrased that, hehe. Also where you put 'squad' I think you meant to put 'squat' either way it was a good post. :D

As for the 'why we are playing diabolo?' I guess it's because it first looked interesting and then we realised it was bloody good fun!
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: OLOBAID on July 09, 2007, 10:52:52 PM
bloody good fun... yes indeed!
seems like the names fit well, haha!

i 90% agree with you Arjan but i cant think of a offending trickname in skateboarding...

i also can imagine that conservative parents may be shocked if their kid tells them, it wants to learn how to do a genocide, lol! kids of younger age probably dont know about the real meaning of this... and the words are too hard to be misunderstood, so why give a f*** ;)

i think in times like this, only hypersensitive people can be offended of that :)
if someone with a brown jacket and a small moustache pulls of a genocide, then...
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: seán_ on July 09, 2007, 11:08:00 PM
Olobaid, re skateboarding from Earlier in this topic

I'm not saying it is inheritently good because it has been around for ten years. I'm saying that the etymology of the cide named tricks is a sound one full of puns and references.
Taken in isolation or if an issue is made of it you could garner a more emotional response than I have came across.

Does it hurt our sport/art/thing? Not necessarily.
Could it hurt our sport/art/thing? It could if the issue is forced.

On the Skateboarding/bmx front, I've been out of the scene for a while but I do recall these examples

Skateboarding-
Sex change: A kickflip with a body varial.
Bastard Plant: A backside boneless to fakie. -we just didnt mention these to our parents
Christ Air: Bs air, nose grab both feet of and extended in the shape of a crucifix, some trouble with the religious types at one point, neatly finessed by the alternative explanation that its Inventor was Christ-ian Hosoi
Gay Twist: fakie 360 with a mute grab, gay because it wasnt the full 540 twist, not my favourite name but I lived with it ( I seem to recall at least thelast two and maybe the first being used by comentators on the Xgames (espn/expn)

Sean Penn: the backside (much more difficult) version of a Maddonna (frontside air, nose grap, foot off, slapping the tail on re-entry) the name derives from Penns spousal abuse of Madonna (beats a maddona) again I was not comfortable with this name for especially as unlike the genocide, this name was chosen with malice.

Skateboarders
Natas Kaupas
I recall a drive to boycott Trasher magazine in the late eighties/early nineties(?) because it continued to champion a skateboarder who blatently used an anagram of satan as his nickname (religious types again). They backed down upon learning that Natas had been named by his eastern european parents who had been expecing a girl that they had planned to name Natasha, used to the name by the birth they shortened it to Natas.

BMX
a series of faltalnd tricks from the US with 'spastic' in the name. No fuss in the magazines (us based) I had this explained to me that it was a more acceptable word in the US (I dont know the truth of this). I know that in the UK it is not considered a word to be used in polite society. No backlash
A disaster (intentional bike hangup on vert) variation where the front peg was on the coping. It was called the Lockerbie after the Pan Am Lockerbie bombing. Again a name chosen with malice and one that did not stick for long.
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: OLOBAID on July 10, 2007, 12:09:49 AM
ha, shame on me! i knew only the standard names :) but it seems to me like surnames within the scene... there is no alternative for genocide! well, i call them genos or minigens bot not to be less offending, just lazyness 8)

fun to read that listing of unpleasant names and theis stories behind :)
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Eric Moffett on July 10, 2007, 03:50:14 AM
Whenever I just mess around, in front of strangers or whatever, I try to explain what I'm going to do so that they can understand it better, and thus, appreciate it more, because I'm not performing, I'm just doing it. So I tell them well I'm going to do a suicide, then I explain which kind and what classifies it etc. and nobody so far has even given the slightest offense when I use any tricks with "questionable" names. I figure they don't care as long as it's used as a noun and not a verb, they just don't realize it.
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: onewheeldave on July 10, 2007, 12:18:24 PM
Whenever I just mess around, in front of strangers or whatever, I try to explain what I'm going to do so that they can understand it better, and thus, appreciate it more, because I'm not performing, I'm just doing it. So I tell them well I'm going to do a suicide, then I explain which kind and what classifies it etc. and nobody so far has even given the slightest offense when I use any tricks with "questionable" names. I figure they don't care as long as it's used as a noun and not a verb, they just don't realize it.

I don't think that 'causing offence' to watching adults was ever an issue?

It was more about how appropriate terms like 'suicide' or 'genocide' are in the context of a workshop for, say, primary school kids.

Even there, it wasn't that they may be offended, as much as it being that it could cause upset/confusion to a child who'd known either suidice or genocide in their lives.

To those who are saying the trick names shouldn't be changed- again, that's not what's been suggested- it's more about having alternative names for those situations (eg childrens workshops) where the tutor may feel that suicide/genocides are not appropriate.

Luckily 'stick release' and 'Off string stick release' are perfectly good alternatives- any negative aspects (confusion from dual terms) are easily offset by the positive ones of being more descriptive than suicide/genocide as well as the fact that they won't cause upset to any children who've been exposed to suicide or genocide.
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: martijn on July 10, 2007, 01:19:53 PM
Can we let this topic rest please? I think the point has been made - several times.
Title: Re: Genocide
Post by: Asa (Formerly Legault) on July 11, 2007, 05:04:53 PM
Well, im pretty good at most tricks, after about 6 years, i still cant do suicides too well, The only one i can do is the basic Chinese Suicide. Still, i don't see a problem with the name. I mean, if you have a stick whipping around in your face, what should we call it? Bruises? Bruiside? I don't see thats its very harmful just to have an inanimate object named something.
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Relativity on July 14, 2007, 08:40:42 PM
i think we should go the whole hog and offend everyone, because if we in the community are happy with the names, then why change to suit everyone else? It realms into the area of wearing religious insignia in the work place and the whole debate about that we had in Britain. But yeah why not get real, we like the names, they should stay, we should even rename mini genocides 'Infanticides', because they're smaller...
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: karl e dangerous on July 22, 2007, 08:50:02 PM
maybe death adds aura and sparks intrest i however have never linked death and diabolo strangly enough it never accured to me but hey its just a name and the next trick i manage to "invent" or belive to have invented will be called bill or wife beater? :-X
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: cobby93 on July 29, 2007, 02:49:38 PM
ok then say we did have to change the name of suicides/genicides.

It could be good fun thinking up new names for it any sugestions people?
Title: Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
Post by: Hodges on July 29, 2007, 09:37:38 PM
i have to say im pretty irritated by the whole thing with political correctness in our world. i dont get upset by people swearing or saying nigger etc, im not a racist, but for christs sakes, theyre just words, its like saying flibbledeblop is rude! thats also the same reason i dont swear, because to me it doesnt mean anything. therefore if people are being upset by words, dont be, because nothing is meant by it. however things like suicide do affect people, my would-be future brother-in-law's brother commited suicide, but im not torn up about using the word as a name. but some people are, so if people want to change the name, it'll be confusing as hell, but if you want you shall its all about free-speech eh?
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