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Diabolo.ca Forums => General => Topic started by: Spink on August 19, 2006, 12:25:02 AM

Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Spink on August 19, 2006, 12:25:02 AM
I am going to let Sean_ xplian this one to you (only if he wants).

But untill today i didn'y know what 3rd base diabolo was, allthough i had alot of ideas.

Just out of intrest what do the people who care think it might be??

check yo self

Spink
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: martijn on August 19, 2006, 12:46:07 AM
First of all... What the hell is it?!
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: nev on August 19, 2006, 12:46:07 AM
I'm imagining some sort of baseball reference  (not)
- maybe I'm just too naieve and sheltered to think of any other connection :wink:  but you certanly have my interest
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Arjan on August 19, 2006, 12:46:39 AM
Quote from: Spink
I am going to let Sean_ explain this one to you (only if he wants).
I`m sure he wants to explain. Well he`s gonna ;)

Quote from: Spink

Just out of intrest what do the people who care think it might be??
I`m not going to waste my time guessing what this is, while I`m much more intrested in this thing, and the ideoligy. Maybe it`s something new.
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Matt_ on August 19, 2006, 01:43:05 AM
he'd better explain!! otherwise i'll have to get the boys from 2nd base and 1st base over here to kick his ass.
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: chris_cabry on August 19, 2006, 01:55:08 AM
i think 3rd base could be the 'new thing'
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: seán_ on August 19, 2006, 03:02:04 AM
I'm slowly getting my thoughts in order,
I too am interested in what people think it might be.

Some clues
3rd base is a baseball term but also has another meaning in Americana (pg forum remember)
2nd base tricks also seem to exist but the only one I have done is tied into trashes web (possbly stealing 3rd)
1st base tricks I don't think so.
4th, thats a regular trick
Aspects of node theory maybe come into it.
Tweakage* possibly has a bearing on this.
Not every trick is 3rd baseable, some tricks are allready 3rd base version of another trick, we just haven't recognised it.
Not every 3rd base trick is going to be as ellegant as a regular trick, some wont be noticable to those other than somebody clued into 3b, even then sometimes its something to do for its own sake

so that's all a lot clearer then?
Sean_

*tweakage: another concept not fully embraced by diaboloists en masse. but with parallels in several disparate (non juggling) pursuits
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Matt_ on August 19, 2006, 03:12:08 AM
that makes no freakin' sense

but, i always was bad at interpreting that sort of thing...
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: seán_ on August 19, 2006, 03:21:14 AM
Sorry Matt_,

 that might give you an insight into how my thought process works especially when dealing with a fluid, developing concept.
I was hoping to have a bit more time to solidify my thoughts but when I have had up to 6 people at the same time questioning me on msn about either the base concept or arcane theoretical concepts tearing off to the realms of metaphysics then I tend to panic.

I think it will all become clear soon enough.
Sean_
(ironically, I'm far more excited by tweakage)
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: frank0072 on August 19, 2006, 05:04:18 AM
wow, this almost sounds like science. You should try to make a video, or something not only text-based, because if you visualize it, it might become a lot clearer..

good luck ;)
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Flo on August 19, 2006, 09:02:17 AM
The first thing that came to me mind when reading about bases from 1st to 4th is the categorization into 4 dimensions.
A "regular" trick is usually done in 4 dimensions (width, height, depth [moving towards the audience...? i'm net really clear about this dimension], time).
A 3rd base trick would then be something with one dimension less, perhaps missing depth.

This were just some ideas, they don't really make sense to me...

Flo
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Morphine on August 19, 2006, 10:45:05 AM
Yes, let imitate the poor communication skills of American teenagers. Hey, why not call it 3RD BAZE :)
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Sir. H Jock (josh) on August 19, 2006, 11:40:38 AM
well you've(sean_) got my attention!
but i have no idea what it is, or may be... or anything.
but i know i wont be taking my eyes off this thread to soon..
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: tommi on August 19, 2006, 12:50:27 PM
Sounds interesting, but I'm pretty confused.. :? Why don't you just give an example of a 3rd base trick. I think someone mentioned 3rd base trapeze and sprinkler in the just learnt thread.
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Chiok on August 19, 2006, 01:13:58 PM
Oh, I get it now!

Tweakage is definitely not fully explored.  It's all about the style.  

Chiok
(I'm such a poser...)

edit: C'mon now, who spelt "ideology"?
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Mark BMC on August 19, 2006, 01:26:17 PM
I'm with nev on this one, I got baseball and "guess what sally cally ann let me do last night in her trailer" from the name.

I have been experimenting with trying to get the diabolo to do a 360 horizontally by tapping it in the air with a stick and giving it encouragement to turn with the sting on the cups before i throw when its spinning very slowly.

that’s not 3rd base I take it, I’ve also just cracked trashes web so any more info about the second base trick would be good to hear

Much confused
Mark
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: LaNgErZ on August 19, 2006, 06:58:57 PM
can someone please tell me! i physically must know.....

or could someone just explain tweakage? please i'm dying here
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: MikeW on August 19, 2006, 10:31:14 PM
anyone else starting to think that this is some joke? Maybe its just me but this reminds me of all the times i randomly said something so i could laugh at my friends while they tried to guess what i was talkin about. Maybe im just crazy and sadistic, who knows? maybe they'll tell us what it is so i dont keep checking this thread every hour, cause its really starting to bug me....

Mike Willett
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: martijn on August 19, 2006, 11:50:11 PM
You mean something like... the glazey?
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Spink on August 20, 2006, 12:11:45 AM
OOh Wthats the Glazey??

Maybe we could start a thread on it !
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Jeppe on August 20, 2006, 01:20:57 PM
i cant get the idea :?
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Scooby on August 20, 2006, 01:52:49 PM
so were talking about stages and classes of tricks rather than families???(genocide, sun, etc.)



AHHH  it all gets to technical, IT RUINEZ TEH BRAINZORS!!

stupid math and physics and stuff that is crazy....


-understand me yeah?  :)
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Spink on August 20, 2006, 02:39:20 PM
not really Scooby

3rd base could be applied to any trick in theory

Best thing is to constantley pm seán_ untill he finally tells you (like everyone else) :?: [/quote]
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Scooby on August 20, 2006, 02:40:47 PM
oh so its a secret??


oooOOOOooo :D
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: nicoli on August 20, 2006, 07:35:57 PM
could somebody just make a 3rd base video to expain all this
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: nezzybaby on August 20, 2006, 09:08:58 PM
seans got to 3rd base with his diabolo, why does everyone want to know more about this? I'm sure we all have our fetishes, but lets not broadcast them
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: seán_ on August 20, 2006, 09:21:02 PM
i'm not that into contact diabolo.

Its all very simple, just hard to get down without people getting a monk on. a few of us have been knocking the concept around (rather than knocking the concept).

Reactions are mixed, Langerz name has come up a few times as people think it might be right up his street. this was not something i had considered but in hindsight i can see why.

Something more concrete soon I promise.
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: fredo on August 20, 2006, 09:53:14 PM
maybe it's doing a trick very small (and fast)?
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: tomangleberger on August 21, 2006, 12:18:07 AM
http://www.thirdbass.net/

I think the guy on top is Tony F. with glasses and hair gel, back when he was a white rapper. (or is he still a white rapper?)
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: LaNgErZ on August 21, 2006, 06:00:55 PM
me? my brain is going to implode with intrigue

alright what about another clue
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: -Leo- on August 21, 2006, 06:26:34 PM
It's starting to piss me off not knowing what it is. Another week of this and Sean_'s pm box will be filled with questions about 'third base tricks.' And if he doesn't tell us then He will be getting spammed with as much animal porn as I can find. Ok, maybe a bit over the top.
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: chris_cabry on August 23, 2006, 10:45:45 PM
Hi,
My Brother (marc) just taught me a 3rd base mini-G
hmm..........

Actually. I dont think that it's quite 3rd base
maby 2nd base
Im not quite sure.

Sean_ what do you think it is????



p.s. I have yo agree with sean_ about Tweakage

Quote from: seán_


Sean_
(ironically, I'm far more excited by tweakage)


Chris_cabry
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: seán_ on August 24, 2006, 12:55:44 AM
If you mean the way he was doing them earlier I dont think it was 3rd base, 2nd possibly*. I considered minig's to be a trick to be one of (many?) tricks that isnt 3rd baseable, but thinking of how to 3rdbase it has given 2 potential variations to try out tommorrow.
Glad to see you 2 thinking about 3rd base, I hope it brings you some happiness.

Sean_

*Though that pushing the analogy somewhat.

Quote from: chris_cabry

p.s. I have yo agree with sean_ about Tweakage

Quote from: seán_


Sean_
(ironically, I'm far more excited by tweakage)


Chris_cabry


We all love tweakage, we just dont know thats what we love
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Pete on August 24, 2006, 08:40:17 AM
We could all think about 3rd base a bit more if we knew what it was.
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: matthewthegreat on August 25, 2006, 04:37:05 AM
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Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: LaNgErZ on August 25, 2006, 11:13:35 AM
the knife is day by day getting closer to my throat..... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just tell everyone. must...... hold..back........dont.....smash ....PC
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: The Vitamin Guy on August 25, 2006, 12:43:09 PM
Okay, relax people. Give seán_ some time. These are just ridicolous posts, but fun to read :).
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: martijn on August 25, 2006, 02:35:21 PM
I agree with the first part vitamin guy :P
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Mithew on August 25, 2006, 07:03:43 PM
Right now I'm trying to decide if third base is actually a useful term denoting a new series/variations of tricks or just something a few people made up that's nothing new but they want to drive us all crazy (if it is the latter those involved will regret it as the entire diabolo.ca community spams them into oblivion)
Title: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Nathan on August 27, 2006, 01:46:32 AM
I'm anxious to know what 3rd base is, and I think many people are confused and impatient. The problem (like all problems) is a failure to define terms consistently. We want to know what "3rd base" is, because that term is not defined. seán_ gave hints using terms like "2nd base", "node theory" and "tweakage". Since these terms aren't defined either, that hints only made us more confused and anxious.

Don't keep asking for definitions again and again, because that won't help.

Rather than ask what 3rd base means (the appropriate expression is "beating a dead horse"), I want to know: Is 3rd base a term that will likely become a forerunner in contemporary diaboloing? Or is it some little known term, bordering on an inside joke, that will have little impact on the diabolo community?
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Ben. on May 02, 2007, 07:00:14 PM
so after all this time, wat is 3rd base ideology????? i really want to know having just discovered this old thread
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: garner on May 02, 2007, 09:52:49 PM
...are you sure you really wanna know?...
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: matthewthegreat on May 02, 2007, 10:07:29 PM
yes
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Chiok on May 02, 2007, 10:54:19 PM
It's a tricky enough concept to explain in person, let alone over text.  I suggest you make your way over to a convention where someone who fully understands is attended and bug them with beer and string till you get it.

I for one don't fully get it, but get the idea.  I think it can happen alot when you're diaboloing to music and trying to hit the beats.

Chiok
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: garner on May 02, 2007, 11:09:05 PM
the way i see it. the more beer you have and the more confused you actually get about what trick your going to do next...thats when you stumble apon third base. but then i look at from a 'key position' point of view when i'm out playing
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: LaNgErZ on May 03, 2007, 12:14:54 AM
unlike you two (it seems anyway) i haven't been able to talk this idea over with anyone in the know so its quite difficult to picture, although i do definitely agree with the music thing, hmmm strange ground

lz
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Spink on May 03, 2007, 02:50:47 AM
so what is it then??

tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me
 ::)
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: William on May 03, 2007, 07:11:17 AM
Yeah. We need somebody to try and explain it..
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Mark BMC on May 03, 2007, 04:03:12 PM
Ive had third base explained to me by its two leading exponents yet again at the bjc.

I then went camping for a week on my own in the highlands, met with a rabi, a priest and a scientologist and many other religious leaders to numerous to mention. I then fasted and beat myself with reeds. this didn't help. So i signed on and started diaboloing in my backgarden listening to god awful Edith bowman. this did 

Think yorkshire, think fratboy humour, think long diabolo sessions.

think I may tell you or at least ask spink to if you buy me a beer at Birmingham.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: donald grant on May 04, 2007, 02:38:03 AM
I went to school with Edith, y'know?  AND Sean explained the premise of the whole thing to me at the sod-the-parade-session on Saturday in Nottingham.  Could the two possibly be related???

Donald
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: cpai on May 04, 2007, 04:24:20 AM
What is even the 3rd base idea?
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Shaun on May 04, 2007, 09:32:07 AM
Ive had third base explained to me by its two leading exponents yet again at the bjc.

I then went camping for a week on my own in the highlands, met with a rabi, a priest and a scientologist and many other religious leaders to numerous to mention. I then fasted and beat myself with reeds. this didn't help. So i signed on and started diaboloing in my backgarden listening to god awful Edith bowman. this did 

Think yorkshire, think fratboy humour, think long diabolo sessions.

think I may tell you or at least ask spink to if you buy me a beer at Birmingham.

so its a way of thinking whilst playing/tweaking to music on the diabolo, which can only be performed through...tweaking? and not the tricks you do. elements of movement?
does it have any affects on a person style? ???
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Chiok on May 04, 2007, 09:53:31 AM
Were you not in the know, there Spinky?  No click for you sir.

I'm sure it can be drummed into you on Saturday and then you'll find it to be quite useless.  I feel bad for being unable to enlighten people on the idea, but then it's not my idea.

Chiok
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Spink on May 04, 2007, 11:59:24 AM

Were you not in the know, there Spinky?  No click for you sir.
Chiok

i started the thread so many clicks for me  :P

its all about tricks you could do, if you wanted, but you might not.

I promise to make a video of ideas for everyone with sean_ before June
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: seán_ on May 04, 2007, 12:56:13 PM
so its a way of thinking whilst playing/tweaking to music on the diabolo, which can only be performed through...tweaking? and not the tricks you do. elements of movement?
does it have any affects on a person style? ???

I'd say it definitely has an effect on style. If you have no interest in style (say if you are a trick robot) or don't tweak it might not be for you.
Music is not essential just a willingness to play on the boundries.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Susannah on May 04, 2007, 02:02:21 PM

i started the thread so many clicks for me  :P


-10 clicks for you for clicking yourself too much....that thing needs to be confiscated!
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Mark BMC on May 04, 2007, 03:20:04 PM
huuuuuummmmm yet another spooky third base related coincidence Mr Grant!

Id say music was not necessary, I'd go as far to say that Chris DE Burg playing in the background would actually impede third base diabolo. however I am just a padowan third baser

-clicks?  you should of just posted a blank post, its the silence where their should of been a click that hurts the most.

Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: dave from the grave on May 05, 2007, 03:31:18 AM
damn it spink/sean_ look what you have created!!!! chaos!!! i think every one has been pulled in to an amaginary concept. 3rd base ideoligy is a feeling not a trick. god what have you done!?!?!?!?!?!
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Radium on May 05, 2007, 09:07:38 PM
What the hell is 3rd base stuff. I'm confused ???, angry >:( and want to be amazed :o. Someone explain!

If I say please will it help?

Confused, angry and wanting amazement.
Radium
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Martin_ on May 05, 2007, 10:48:23 PM
The whole concept boggles the mind.

Can't diabolo just be throwing around pretty spinny things in a hap hazard manner in the intention of creating amazing tricks?!

Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: LaNgErZ on May 07, 2007, 09:35:34 AM

I promise to make a video of ideas for everyone with sean_ before June

i wanna play
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Ben. on May 07, 2007, 11:34:43 AM
it is a very hard concept to explain on a forum, when the video comes out all will be clear ;)
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: nev on May 11, 2007, 09:13:26 PM
So I was at work today trimming and fitting doors, and to ease the tediousness my mind wandered to a diabolo ideas session.  Try as I might I simply could not think of a 3rd base trick that would also combine the 9th element of diabolo.  There must be one out there - I just need a little help in finding it.

Any helpers?
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Mark BMC on May 12, 2007, 12:43:49 AM
ninth element element third base!  8)
you should come to poker on Monday to discuss further!

p.s loving the marble background for your fly diabolo pics[its all about presentation]! i didn't know they came in normal axle! so much to think about for a firday night.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: cpai on May 15, 2007, 04:55:53 AM
What is the ninth element?
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: iroQuai on May 15, 2007, 09:29:44 AM
..nobody knows yet! But everybody can imagine that, when it will be discovered, it will change the way you think about diaboloing, even about life in general!
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: -Leo- on May 15, 2007, 05:57:48 PM
..nobody knows yet! But everybody can imagine that, when it will be discovered, it will change the way you think about diaboloing, even about life in general!

In a similar way that 3rd base has? ;)
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Martin_ on May 15, 2007, 06:29:31 PM
I thought the 9th element was danger.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Mark BMC on May 20, 2007, 05:42:41 PM
No thats the Tenth [debate-able], 9th element is a different ball game,


..nobody knows yet! But everybody can imagine that, when it will be discovered, it will change the way you think about diaboloing, even about life in general!

Ha thanks for the dramatic build up, 9th element is just extending the concept used by the TMFP and pete and Garner. Its rather esoteric and I wouldn’t waste precious time musing about the concept, just know that their are diabolo'ers out their working to develop the concept to put in vids for you all to enjoy.


 
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: David - SAS1 on May 21, 2007, 10:49:50 AM
No thats the Tenth [debate-able], 9th element is a different ball game 
how can 9th element help
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Chiok on May 21, 2007, 06:27:56 PM
how can 9th element help
It really can't, I'm sure of it. 

Chiok
--
I used to be in the employ of a multi-faceted retail outlet in the windy city, we specialised in wind-ups.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: matthewthegreat on May 28, 2007, 10:50:28 PM
I promise to make a video of ideas for everyone with sean_ before June

only three days till it's June and I have not seen a video. ::)
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: seán_ on May 28, 2007, 11:15:15 PM
yeah, I know. some of us have work to do, plus I'm a bit miffed on the 9th element (important though it may be) being attached to 3rdB, it's only confused matters more.

I know people know about 3rdb and those that know, know how those that also know, can benefit from knowing and maybe see that a scattergun approach to everyone knowing what others know might not always be the way to go, y'know
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Radium on May 29, 2007, 01:04:15 PM
I know people know about 3rdb and those that know, know how those that also know, can benefit from knowing and maybe see that a scattergun approach to everyone knowing what others know might not always be the way to go, y'know

What?! How many know do you need? 9, you even put one after another. I'm sure that's just meant to say the video isn't coming soon :P

Radium
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: matthewthegreat on May 29, 2007, 04:30:30 PM
I don't know much about baseball but I typed 3rd base in to the wikipedia and found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_base
it says that the Third base is known as the "Hot Corner", since most right-handed hitters will tend to hit the ball hard in this direction. In this situation, the third baseman needs fine hand-eye coordination and quick reactions in order to catch hard line drives.
I don't know if this 3rd base thing has any thing to do with this but I thought it is a good guess. I can wait for the video to come out (that is if it is coming out)
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Alex! on May 29, 2007, 05:33:56 PM
Has nothing to do with baseball, although I guess you could play 3rd base baseball. That'd be soo fun :)
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: nev on May 30, 2007, 11:01:17 AM
Whoops - didnt mean for anyone to get "miffed" here, nor was it my intention to link 9th element to 3rd base in any way - in fact the opposite is true - I was merely stating that 9th element tricks appear not to be 3rd baseable.  There - I trust that has cleared everything up for all  ;)

Move along people, nothing to see here.......
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: GCHF on June 04, 2007, 09:03:41 PM
So i take this was a joke then?! As there have been no definition, video or any attempt at an explanation!! Sounds like just an attempt to get some free beer at the next convention!
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: matthewthegreat on June 04, 2007, 09:40:31 PM
So i take this was a joke then?! As there have been no definition, video or any attempt at an explanation!! Sounds like just an attempt to get some free beer at the next convention!
I'm beginning to think you are right. 
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: OLOBAID on June 04, 2007, 09:52:41 PM
Haha, nice first post GCHF :D
everybody who knows about the secret will just :-X because its too precious to share!!!

welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: garner on June 04, 2007, 10:11:40 PM
forget trying to convince people to whisper the secret by offering them beer. what you really need is a hollow metal tube and some barbed-wire. tight budget might make you opt for masking tape and a banana though...
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: matthewthegreat on June 05, 2007, 01:21:36 AM
because its too precious to share!!!
If it is so precious why do I see a lot of others on this forum allready know what it is? Why did spink even say that he was going to make a video? and why did this topic even get started in the first place if it is too precious to share? I do have to say if this is a joke it is a good one!
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Eric Moffett on June 05, 2007, 02:16:19 AM
I'm thinking that bases are like computer bases... base 10 is decimal, base 2 is binary, base 8 is hex, etc... they all translate down to binary, and they all get more and more complex as you get into the higher and higher bases... same thing with the tricks, lets say you have trick "A" and it's binary is 10, and the same trick "A" decimal is 2, same trick but different, more complex...
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: cpai on June 06, 2007, 12:07:39 AM
Didn't seán_ say that 4th base is a normal trick? I'm confused. Garner, whats with the banana?
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Dan on June 06, 2007, 01:32:09 AM
I myself do not know what this is, and quite frankly neither do i care.  Take for instance if you went outside and saw that the sky is blue (doesn't happen often here in england).  Yes it is human nature to wonder why that is, but do we really need to know?  If its a big secret that alot of people on the forum know about, but none have come forward with a written explaination, i doubt it can be put into words.  Diabolo is fun!

Thats the end of my meaningless rant now go outside (or inside with space) and discover some new tricks with two sticks, some string and one or more diabolos  :D
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Eric Moffett on June 06, 2007, 02:02:28 AM
The sky is blue because of the nitrogen gas in our atmosphere, it bends the blue visible light from the sun...  :P
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: David - SAS1 on June 06, 2007, 09:48:32 AM
Well done, you listen in science.
Third base is actually quite hard to explain you just kind of discover it by yourself.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Chiok on June 06, 2007, 09:03:54 PM
Ooo, metal tube a barbed wire, haven't heard that one in a while.  Not sure how masking tape and a banana works though.

4th base is a normal trick.  Is that right..?  Anyway, bring on Crawley

Chiok
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Alex! on June 06, 2007, 09:31:18 PM
If it is so precious why do I see a lot of others on this forum allready know what it is? Why did spink even say that he was going to make a video? and why did this topic even get started in the first place if it is too precious to share? I do have to say if this is a joke it is a good one!

The topic was created so people could be eased slowly into the concept and prepare themselves for a new base, gradualy it will probably diffuse through the whole forum. If it was announced at once then it'd just be too controversial and far out!
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: OLOBAID on June 06, 2007, 09:55:23 PM
haha, yeah and to have the most impact when the vid is out ;)
 is there a guess when the 3rd base will be common property?
 will it be a step towards general enlightenment?
 do the illuminati exist?             
                                   I         
                                   I        /\     23
                                   V     /    \
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: cpai on June 07, 2007, 01:33:39 AM
Is that supposed to be a diagram...?
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Alex! on June 07, 2007, 06:29:23 PM
             
                                   I        
                                   I        /\     23
                                   V     /    \

Thats some Illuminati thing probably, triangles 'n' such :D
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: k2pek2 on June 07, 2007, 09:39:33 PM
so is it like... doing tricks without any depth and only the horizontal and vertical axis, and time, on which the diabolo moves? if i'm wrong someone explain this stuff.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: seán_ on June 08, 2007, 01:51:45 AM
I resent the implication that my tricks have no depth.

I don't really do much vertax so I haven't thought much about it in connection with third base, If I was to hazard a guess I'd say Nev would be the person to talk about that (he likes it on the slant)
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: k2pek2 on June 08, 2007, 02:13:31 AM
so was i right?
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: karatepekka on October 17, 2007, 11:10:13 AM
WHAT THE **** IS THIS!!!!!!!!! >:( >:(

I read the whole topic, but there weren´t any answers.
Only more questions. ??? ???

SOMEBODY TELL ME NOW!!!! >:(
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Duncan on October 17, 2007, 11:36:02 AM
WHAT THE **** IS THIS!!!!!!!!! >:( >:(

I read the whole topic, but there weren´t any answers.
Only more questions. ??? ???

SOMEBODY TELL ME NOW!!!! >:(

Don't think so hard about it. Go outside and tweak up your tricks. Live a little ;)

-Duncan
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Shaun on October 17, 2007, 11:46:09 AM
Even if I knew karatepekka, I wouldn't tell you after that demanding piece of writing. Try asking nicely and you might get somewhere  :)

Look, you made this little face cry :)--> :'(
haha
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Alex! on October 17, 2007, 03:14:07 PM
Eventually you will find out, everyone knows now
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: aaro on October 17, 2007, 03:38:27 PM
For me, it´s a matter of style. You can clear a hallway by throwing in some kind of explosive cadged, but that will affect the walls and ultimately also the feeling of the original space. So it's better to clear the air with more elegant meanings and motivations.

It can also be, that space is quite close relative to base. This is purely theoretical naturally.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Sharpes on October 17, 2007, 04:04:20 PM
I think i has something to do with blowies
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: pippy on October 17, 2007, 05:37:51 PM
Quote
Eventually you will find out, everyone knows now
Everyone knows you say? Well since when did I fal out of that category?

And please can someone at least send me a message telling me what this is?
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: matthewthegreat on October 17, 2007, 07:08:01 PM
And please can someone at least send me a message telling me what this is?

Me too PLEASE!!!  ;D
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Niclas on October 17, 2007, 07:17:52 PM
And me!
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: garner on October 17, 2007, 07:47:42 PM
well you guys keep wondering about 3rd base but your forgetting to look at how talk about it. do that and you can alteast get some vague concept. + your forgetting about 1st base, 2nd base and tweakage
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Luc on October 17, 2007, 08:24:51 PM
I always thought 3rd base was kind of like a chicken laying an egg, and when it hatches a monkey pops out.

The monkey isn't necessarily carrying a firearm though.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: martijn on October 17, 2007, 09:05:51 PM
Oh yeah, tweakage. Definitely a keypoint to the 3rdB approach.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Matt? on October 17, 2007, 11:15:05 PM
empty your mind and it will come...
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Shaun on October 17, 2007, 11:41:32 PM
Use the force...haha
I think im starting to understand it, and if it's what im thinking of, its difficult to explain in words without saying things like "empty your mind and it will come". It's like a state of mind that is reflected through the way you use the diabolo, which can't be achieved without tweaking movement/control, and understanding the movements in all its forms, over time it comes naturally in the right frame of mind. Is that on the right track master?
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: willum89 on October 18, 2007, 03:01:46 AM
you're all insane. and you're driving me nuts. What is 3rd base, what is tweakage, why can't someone just explain it somehow? Post a video demonstrating 3rd base or tweakage. Post a video of a dude eating shrooms, drinking Absinth, hitting the bong, and then playing diabolo if you must. (yes, that's 3 drugs, 3rd base perhaps?) I'm so confused and want to know what 3rd base is and why everyone's making such a big deal out of it causing me to make a big deal out of it!! I'm losing hair here!!!!!
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: thewu on October 18, 2007, 03:43:54 AM
i have a feeling they won't tell us till april fools day. then they'll tell us it's a joke. :O

but please prove me wrong. :p
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Shaun on October 18, 2007, 04:31:22 AM
you're all insane. and you're driving me nuts.
Maybe were just super smart :P
Read the posts and reflect on what they say. It's kinda funny how people read 8 pages of posts and get no meaning from it :D like a law book.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: William on October 18, 2007, 07:16:54 AM
There are videos with 3rdB.
But since you don't know what it is, you can't recognise it.
You've probably done a 3rdB trick before.
You just didn't realise.
Hints.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Duncan on October 18, 2007, 07:49:23 AM
you're all insane. and you're driving me nuts. What is 3rd base, what is tweakage, why can't someone just explain it somehow? Post a video demonstrating 3rd base or tweakage.

http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=3200.0

-Duncan
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: seán_ on October 18, 2007, 06:11:13 PM
The 3rdbaseness is minimal in that video really, except when it comes to a bit of tweakage obviously. Theres a 3rd base move or two that popped up in Langerz last video.

Got to love the 'post a tutorial' call, tutorials aren't always the answer.

Tom Derrick and another juggler had a productive session applying third base to juggling at Durham, well happy seeing it applied to other disciplines.

Sorry havent got more time to type about it here. Might do a 3rd base workshop at the BJC though. (bit hard to get it down in words on a pc, more a concept that passes between diaboloists whilst actually diaboloing.)
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: willum89 on October 18, 2007, 06:12:54 PM
Maybe were just super smart :P
Read the posts and reflect on what they say. It's kinda funny how people read 8 pages of posts and get no meaning from it :D like a law book.
Yes, this thread is very much like a law book.....except that there's less numbers.....and less sense and more begging for answers. So I watched the "Short and Long" video and I'm convinced it has to do with drugs, why else would it show Ginger Tom smoking. Also just doing whatever the hell you want, regardless of if it's a trick or not, as long as it feels right in some way. I'm still very clueless........
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: martijn on October 18, 2007, 07:17:06 PM
Think "baseball".
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: J_J777 on October 18, 2007, 07:31:06 PM
I think either you should either
A. Tell everyone who it is so as to stop the useless posts on 3rd base or
B. Just shut up about 3rd base because if your not going to tell then don't.

Josh

Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Chiok on October 18, 2007, 08:42:09 PM
Yeah, what he said ^

Pfft, state of mind...

Chiok
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: pippy on October 19, 2007, 12:41:12 AM
I gotta agree, you say think baseball when ya gotta remember baseball is a prodominately american sport.  The whole 3rd base etc. means nout to most of us europeans.  So please just forget about the whole thing and leave it to conventions and workshops or attempt an explaination on here.  Also please add in 1st and 2nd base theories too
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Tom Derrick on October 19, 2007, 01:57:26 AM
Tom Derrick and another juggler had a productive session applying third base to juggling at Durham, well happy seeing it applied to other disciplines.
I've just filmed Mills' mess, and the accompanying 'third base' pattern that I came across at Durham. At the time of writing, it's being processed by youtube, but if you check my youtube account (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=tomthejuggler), it'll be online shortly.

Edit: It's now online:
[youtube=425,350]c64tazyl2pA
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Marijn on October 19, 2007, 07:20:08 AM
I think i begin to understand where to look for answers....
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: martijn on October 19, 2007, 10:27:51 AM
you say think baseball when ya gotta remember baseball is a prodominately american sport

That makes no sense at all. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist in other countries, or that we don't know the rules and terms used in that sport.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Shaun on October 20, 2007, 01:00:19 AM
I've just filmed Mills' mess, and the accompanying 'third base' pattern that I came across at Durham.
So 3rd base is just like tweaking tricks to make new ones that are similar?
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: William on October 20, 2007, 01:11:17 AM
I think somebody may have finally hit the jackpot.
All may be revealed.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: pippy on October 27, 2007, 08:08:32 PM
Quote
you say think baseball when ya gotta remember baseball is a prodominately american sport

Quote
That makes no sense at all. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist in other countries, or that we don't know the rules and terms used in that sport.

I'm not sayin it doesn't exist in other countries but if I said there was a new ideology called truck and trailor, then told you 'think rugby', I doubt many americans or some europeans would understand that term without having to go and find out about rugby.
I know for a fact that most Germans don't have a clue about rugby (I've been in Germany for the past week so watched England lose to South Africa with Germans who didn't know what was going on).
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Beni on October 28, 2007, 08:27:32 PM
It's been a while since I posted here, I had a bit of an unispired lull in my diabolo-ing, but I'm fully into it again :).

I believe 3rd base was talked about last year when I first started diabolo.
At first I thought is was a real techincal theory with a lot to consider which is why it was taking so long. I soon came to think of it as one big unfunny joke that when people get they join in. I still think this may be the case (maybe something to do with the lack of revolutionary new tricks, sensible attempts to explain etc...). But recent developments in the 3rd base 'saga' have got me thinking maybe there is something in it. Suddenly, sort-of and just-about 3rd base tricks are appearing in videos, and someone may have hit the 'jackpot'.
The jackpot in question seems to be a very simple statement which seán or anyone else could easily have said at the start of all this:

So 3rd base is just like tweaking tricks to make new ones that are similar?

Well I think many people do that, but why give it a name and keep it a secret to annoy everyone else?
Anyhow, if I understand it right, 3rdb seems to be what Miesta said; a change in the trick like changing the moving object from diabolo to sticks or merging tricks together more thoroughly than normal in a combo. Maybe it's just shaping a trick to suit your style, which almost every diaboloist does. That still doesn't explain 1st, 2nd and 4th bases.
If it is a joke, maybe it's time to own up, guys.
And if it isn't? Well something that is apparently impossible to explain in text and video shouldn't be given a term and dangled in front of everyone's noses on an internet forum.

Beni.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: seán_ on October 28, 2007, 11:46:30 PM
Right

Ok to go back and look at my original assumptions and conjecture and postulates in the early part of *my* investigation into 3rd base
(my as in my own understanding not as a claim to the concept as a whole).

I'm slowly getting my thoughts in order,
I too am interested in what people think it might be.

Some clues
3rd base is a baseball term but also has another meaning in Americana (pg forum remember) 

still holds true

2nd base tricks also seem to exist but the only one I have done is tied into trashes web (possbly stealing 3rd) 

again still part of the whole thing but not an area I'm particularly interested. I quite like slack control to a point (hey tweakage) but most 2nd base stuff is just sloppy. Fair enough if anybody wants to deal with it, theres a fair chance that they'll discover stuff that they'll be pleased with but it's not for me.

1st base tricks I don't think so.
again it has to exist but to me (at this point in time) it just seems like indecision.

4th, thats a regular trick
As true as it has ever been.

Aspects of node theory maybe come into it.
There is a need to stop thinking of nodes as static points that might be concretely defined, move away from geometry and think of calculus (the curve heads towards the zenith but that point is so fractionally small that what lays to either side becomes of more importance).


Tweakage* possibly has a bearing on this.
Tweakage, I'll be coming back to this, it definitely has a bearing on 3rdB and vise versa.

Not every trick is 3rd baseable,
Sometimes I think this, but It cant hold true, potentially we might be better to think that some tricks are incredibly hard to apply 3rdB to (see next point).

 Some tricks are allready 3rd base version of another trick, we just haven't recognised it.
 Yes, this is potentially a hard thing to take in, before third base I'd define all tricks as a unique entity, now my thinking is that If trick A is imposible to 3rd base might it not be a trick? This sounds unituitive because a trick is a trick right? This is the bit that causes me (maybe others) a lot of grief.

Not every 3rd base trick is going to be as elegant as a regular trick, some wont be noticeable to those other than somebody clued into 3b, even then sometimes its something to do for its own sake
This is true, but through accepting third base I see some things as more elegant when not in 3rd base again the opposite can be argued on a case by case basis. Sure some things aren't that noticeable but then were they ever?
We all know to a greater or lesser extent depending on many things (skill level, the why/who and what for we diabolo for whether we are happy just going through a list of 'standard' tricks or we want to be completely unique etc.) that when it gets down to it diabolo is a personal thing. We wouldn't be doing it if we didn't get something out of it on a personal level. Sure to what extent is another personal thing but we all know that there are things we notice, that other diaboloists notice (in the same way???) and the GP do or dont. but if you do something it has to be noticed it's being observed, to what extent/level/cognisance will, no, must vary so weather you want to get beat up about it, well is that healthy or not?

I'll notice 3rd base more easily than somebody who hasn't got to grasps with it, but I still miss it. I'll be happier when I don't need to concretely think about it (in the way you just know what kind of knot/wrap you have by the feel say). I'd say others are probably closer to that point than me personally, some will be aware of this others will have just naturally got here them selves.

so that's all a lot clearer then? ?
Sean_

*tweakage: another concept not fully embraced by diaboloists en masse. but with parallels in several disparate (non juggling) pursuits

Tweakage exists in diabolo, it exists in pretty much everything if you look at it long enough. sometimes it goes by another name 'clicked' in freestyle bmx is something tweaked to the greatest extent (for example).. push something past where you would normally stop (maybe even stop before you get there) that is tweakage.
There's merit in being ultra precise, more power to you if this is your way but tweakage is jazz. You are playing with boundary's with tweakage and 3rdbase is about boundary's, how close can you come to that node? Can you come back, must you go forward? If you are going forward why the hell not push it for all it's got, tweak away and see how close you can get it to becoming another trick are you going to stop at that new 'trick' or are you going to bail out back to the safe point, how close are you going to leave it?

Take a simple side sun. really look at it as you do it, what is actually happening? play with it, do it tight and snappy do it loose and flowy, start one of these ways and finish the other, change the shape, get it to stall at a point really play with it. Look at the axle, the wrap, especially the wrap. Is a side sun a trick or a tweaked version of a fw/bwuw (or however you sun) where does one become the other, where are the boundaries, where are the nodes where are the bases what do you need to do to slip into another move without the previous trick existing, what does that make the next trick?

I'd say it definitely has an effect on style. If you have no interest in style (say if you are a trick robot) or don't tweak it might not be for you.
Music is not essential just a willingness to play on the boundries.
Remember I'm not saying that this is the way for everyone, some people will be geared up for it, plenty wont care either way. I happen to like tweakage and toying with boundaries. Does it effect everything I do with diabolo, not consciously and definitely not all the time, I mean if you are learning a new trick it's about nailing that trick ugly as sin if need be, when you are comfortable and have the flow thats when you get to play thats when you can put on the style.
Change you style, consider nodal points, 3rd base where the theories about 8 standard elements (and the esoteric 9th) can be brought into play. Again consciously or not, everyone is different.

Music might help but then again you can get lost in the diaboloing itself just as effectively.


Right I think you can see this is still not something I have totally nailed down yet.
So 3rd base is just like tweaking tricks to make new ones that are similar?

That is pretty succinct right there, maybe a bit to clinical, It's hard to argue with that except for maybe saying that couldn't tweakage (in the broadest terms) be more of an expansion away from the standard whilst 3rd base might be closer to smallest amount of tweak or even negative (anti?) tweak, getting as close to a boundary and escaping from that point, really making the node as small as possible untill... is it even there?
It's tweakage none the less. Is it similar (the 'trick' and the 3rdbase variant)? Yes I suppose it is, but with tweakage in play does that gold standard of a trick even apply any more if any trick can be tweaked and if something is tweaked to the nth degree untill it can be argued to be another 'trick' did that first trick actually exist?

My seed of thought is and continues to be 'How close can I come to being able to say I've pulled (entered in most cases rather than completed if you get my drift) and then exit that (ideally at the precise moment or before the node forms) 'trick' '.  Thats 3rdBase for me.

Use the force...haha
I think im starting to understand it, and if it's what im thinking of, its difficult to explain in words without saying things like "empty your mind and it will come". It's like a state of mind that is reflected through the way you use the diabolo, which can't be achieved without tweaking movement/control, and understanding the movements in all its forms, over time it comes naturally in the right frame of mind. Is that on the right track master?

This really brightened up my day. I dont know if you were being serious or joking but it added to my own personal understanding and apreciation for diabolo as a whole, and 3rd base/tweakage in particular. Thankyou either way.

I'm thinking that bases are like computer bases... base 10 is decimal, base 2 is binary, base 8 is hex, etc... they all translate down to binary, and they all get more and more complex as you get into the higher and higher bases... same thing with the tricks, lets say you have trick "A" and it's binary is 10, and the same trick "A" decimal is 2, same trick but different, more complex...

Now I've put The Moffs' thoughts here as one of the several examples of how people have looked at the vagueness (which wasnt intentional as such, remember when all this kicked of I/we were really early doors on this stuff) and developed theories on there own. Is it a valid thory? Yes, but not for 3rd base, I don't know if it was developed further than this could be the start of a useful thing in it's own right.

Will had his own thoughts 'third person diabolo'. Initially dealing with how tricks are perceived by others (visually, perspectively) there was talk of
Quote
'...diabolo from the other side- facing the other cup'... 'Well as simple as I can put it. With one diabolo its changing the wraps you're in to change (Possibly 'tweak') combos and tricks...
'For example with one of the things I did: you might be in the position to do a wrapped mini-G, but then do a big sun whilst turning 180 degrees'
This then lead onto talk about scandinavian knot theory and the stuff Norbi was into and Nev plays with at the moment (Her Flik stops etc) and then he went of to get to grips with his whole 2d vertax stuff and as far as I know hasn't given 3rd base  or 3rd person a further thought.

Others have other ideas, are they any more or less valid? Well I reckon they are valid for a given value of valid. If it's not third base it's not third base but things that are still worth looking into.
Look at this for a paradox. IF there can be a  100% concrete definition of third base (it becomes a 'trick') then 3rd base itself becomes 3rd baseable. However with the loose  but valid concept in play (be it somewhat fluid as each persons influences and understanding come to bear will affect everyone else's understanding in a fluid manner. (Hey tweakage!)

For me, it´s a matter of style. You can clear a hallway by throwing in some kind of explosive cadged, but that will affect the walls and ultimately also the feeling of the original space. So it's better to clear the air with more elegant meanings and motivations.


It can also be, that space is quite close relative to base. This is purely theoretical naturally.

Another beautiful thought. Would there be room for this with rigid conceptulisation, It put me in mind of Schroedinger's cat. I think Aaro has brought something 'elegant' to the discussion

....

I know people know about 3rdb and those that know, know how those that also know, can benefit from knowing and maybe see that a scattergun approach to everyone knowing what others know might not always be the way to go, y'know

Sorry about that one, but I think that was written at a bad time :)


Closer to home now, Short and long was given as a video with possible 3rd base in it, it has tweakage but I didn't think it had any 3rd base. back to the old who will know/be able to see paradox.
The 3rdbaseness is minimal in that video really, except when it comes to a bit of tweakage obviously. Theres a 3rd base move or two that popped up in Langerz last video. (carnage)

Got to love the 'post a tutorial' call, tutorials aren't always the answer.

Tom Derrick and another juggler had a productive session applying third base to juggling at Durham, well happy seeing it applied to other disciplines.

Sorry haven't got more time to type about it here. Might do a 3rd base workshop at the BJC though. (bit hard to get it down in words on a pc, more a concept that passes between diaboloists whilst actually diaboloing.)

I stand by that workshop/ real time chat in person, It's SO much easier to deal with this in person where you can take an individuals style and comprehension into account.

Pop back and check out Tom Derricks post and video on taking 3rd base and applying it to toss juggling. He takes a standard trick (a highly tweakable one but aren't they all) and applied his personal understanding of 3rd base (with some of my understanding and that of a juggler called Graham.
Tom came up with a new (to him move) by applying the concept which he might not necessarily have came close to developing that move through the usual jam method or beatmap or multi synch, negative space (whatever the hell tossjugglers get up to) or any one of many different techniques. So thats using 3rd base (another technique in this case) as a step towards a brand new trick, that trick in itself 3rd baseable and tweakable  etc. etc.

Graham took 3rd base to allow himself the freedom *not* to pull a trick so if 'j0j0j0j0q1w2e3r4t5j0j0j0j0' is a classically accepted trick in the past he might have considered moving into another move directly after the t5 but now he looked for a move after the 4t but that couldn't be one of the usual patterns a new one (to him at least) was required and his personal understanding of 3rd base (the 3 of us took the freedom to take it in out own way) gave him a new found freedom, joy and direction that day. I was pretty happy about that, I hope he passes it on.

Will everyone care/get it/use it see it in the 'correct' way? No but that's hardly the point, those that want to will, those that don't, wont and there be those who will be as unaware of it as the vast majority of this planet and there lives aren't going to come to an end.

So I hope you can see *my* approach to 3rd base, It isn't every bodies approach. It's a kind of reverse gestalt deal (I reckon), where pinning it down completely might relieve some frustration, my own included, but then it would kind of cease to exist. Possibly to be swallowed up under the mighty umbrella of tweakage and I think we would loose a useful tool (physically and metaphysically)

Don't think so hard about it. Go outside and tweak up your tricks. Live a little ;)

-Duncan
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Benny? on October 29, 2007, 03:37:41 AM
o boy that took a long time to read

thanks seán

i think i might kinda sorta get it now :-\
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Diabolo88 on October 29, 2007, 12:03:54 PM
I so don´t get this thread but am I on the right track at least with a 4th base being a normal suicide for example. The next step/tweakage to that would be a unwrapped inf. suicide. The next step to that would be an unwrapped, but with the string constantly coming loose ang going back under again to keep the diabolo in the air against gravity (like what happens sometimes when you first learn it) so you would be forced to rotate the string faster, and the next (ultimate) step would be to swing the stick so fast that the momentum from the string gives an "aircushion" for the diabolo to float on? Or is it all about style?

^I know how stupid this all sounds but I just can´t get my head around it. Maybe I´m missing the point completely.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: seán_ on October 29, 2007, 12:29:48 PM
Your not missing the point at all, you are in the loop. That is a nice sequence there and part of this about making you think along those lines. I'd say be careful of thinking to concretely about ultimate steps, consider this, how does a stick swap sun relate to a suicide? Is the aircusion a genocide, would that be decided upon whether  the swing point was the tip of the stick or if you moved the pivot to the diabolo (like an isolation).
So yeah, thought processes<->feeling/touch<->style.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: willum89 on October 29, 2007, 03:10:52 PM
after reading all that I felt like I was in the loop. but the more I think about it the less I understand. I get the part of tweakage/anti-tweakage I think but then how do you classify between 1,2,3,4 base?

The idea of tweakage will be fun to mess with though, if I understood it correctly. If it is what I think it is I guess I've been doing it without consciously knowing it as 'tweakage'. I'm always trying to link up tricks, turning one movement into another trick which I find is pretty easy to do with leg tricks which is why I like leg tricks so much. Also with leg there's the challenge of accelerating with a push every chance you get and trying not to let the diabolo slow down when it's going down the wrong way to see how many tricks you can link up together without having to exit.
Is that tweakage or am I still not getting it.

Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Marijn on October 29, 2007, 08:05:00 PM
That made it sort of clearer for me. I think I have got ''into'' 3rd base a little recently, if I understand it correct. This stuff is quite interesseting, the thoughts you pointed out might give me some things to think about and play with.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: tommi on October 29, 2007, 08:24:23 PM
This is starting to sound understandable now, really good stuff to read. I've been exploring relation between sun and wrap, also string- and body-position, I believe I've been thinking 3rd Base with some moves.

the theories about 8 standard elements (and the esoteric 9th)

What are these? Or do you just mean sun, throw, wrap etc.? I cannot think eight of those anyway. If someone cares to list the 8 (or more) elements, I'll be very thankful.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Matt? on October 29, 2007, 09:09:42 PM
I know all tricks are tweakable, but, are some tricks more tweakable than others?
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: garner on November 04, 2007, 10:10:15 AM
If someone cares to list the 8 (or more) elements, I'll be very thankful.

well i'm sure if you search the forum for 8 principles or something similar it'll come up. but they are...
throw
wrap
sun
knot
grind
grab
stick release
whip

but this isn't a thread about the 8 principles
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: LaNgErZ on November 04, 2007, 10:42:50 AM
there is more than eight.

your just limiting yourself

i am going to prove you wrong

lz

still a strong believer in the 9th

fabled as the "cheeky chilean"
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Beni on November 04, 2007, 11:45:24 AM
If 3rd base is sort of taking something out of a trick, shouldn't there be a 5th base too?
That would be like putting a flourish on a trick or complicating it.
I think if 5th base is counted then I have a 5th base slackwhip. I'll try and film it soon.

Beni

(I hope I haven't got the complete wrong end of the stick ::))
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Squiggle on November 04, 2007, 12:07:03 PM
Lol, All sounds so silly to me.  All this craze about 3rd base + principals, I've had a couple people explain it to me and still don't really see it..Lol.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Matt? on November 04, 2007, 12:13:43 PM
I think everyone should attent a Pete n' Garner workshop on the 8 principles with Garner sitting in the corner shouting random words and drinking rum and pete doing all the work. But seriously, its a real eye opener.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Duncan on November 04, 2007, 12:24:10 PM
http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=214.msg1988#msg1988

Or read this
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: LaNgErZ on November 04, 2007, 02:59:24 PM
If 3rd base is sort of taking something out of a trick, shouldn't there be a 5th base too?
That would be like putting a flourish on a trick or complicating it.
I think if 5th base is counted then I have a 5th base slackwhip. I'll try and film it soon.

Beni

(I hope I haven't got the complete wrong end of the stick ::))
give that man a cigar. thats exactly what i've been the been thinking. i dont know its debateable, i think the only way it could be applied is through slackwhips. but i think (emphasis on the think) that for the trick to be truly 5th base it has to arrive at 4th aswell as 5th in the same movement, thats why i think it is only possible with slack, but yeah i'm hiding a few of them hehehe

lz
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Beni on November 04, 2007, 05:38:17 PM
Well I'd say that Trash's web is 2nd base because actually it's still an open string. But another way of seeing it is that it's a 5th base open string.

for the trick to be truly 5th base it has to arrive at 4th aswell as 5th in the same movement
Well I dunno about 'truly' 5th base but it does seem to happen.

i think the only way it could be applied is through slackwhips.
I'm not sure. what about a double cradle? There are ways of geting into them without whipping. although that raises the question of what a cradle is. A 5th base open string? If so, then 5th basing a cradle would be... 6th base?! Hmmm...
Actually I do think there may be a 6th base something to do with 'basing' a two (or more) move combo.
This is fun :).

Beni
(At this rate in a year there'll be 15 base 3d vertax combos incorporating the 32nd element. Maybe.)
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: garner on November 04, 2007, 06:43:14 PM
 cradle position is a knot on both sticks that leaves you in open string.
a trapeze cradle is a knot on 1 stick, then on 2, then a throw and then cradle position.

you could say a cradle slack as a 3rd base spaggetti slack, it might be a few things. but then if, by what your saying, a trick a the 3rd base of a node. if you change the 3rd base to be that node then the origonal trick become 5th base. thus including 3rd and 5th at the same time.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Ben. on November 04, 2007, 08:42:16 PM
oh it all makes sense now, garner that post really cleared things up. ;)
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Beni on November 04, 2007, 09:10:12 PM
But the question is, can you get from 3rd to 5th without going through 4th?
I see what you're getting at garner. I'd say that if you treat a knot as how it would be when all strings are released from sticks then most of it is 5th base and 3rd base versions of the tricks they are in themselves making. OK that probably makes no sense.
Let's see... for example we have a spaghetti. Now, if the loops are let off the stick, the string is open, thus making it a 5th base open string. But if you 3rd base the spaghetti which is itself a trick and key position (node?), it is techincally 3rd, 4th and 5th base at the same time. Maybe this makes it a 6th base trick.
However, a spaghetti knot leaves the door open to tampering with the loops. I think this is what stops it being 2nd base, like trash's web (which is barely 2nd itself).
You (garner) approach it in a different way from me, i.e. node theory and elements. I think those are best left to combo ideology until bases are sorted out, 'cause we're only talking single tricks atm. Although it is your way of explaining, and it makes sense to me, it can be confusing.
The problem with element theory is that it hardly incorporates body combos. An arm, leg, neck etc. should be considered a detached stick or fixed point, else it all breaks down when you try to explain Susannah's rubberarm wrapped orbits in elemental terms.

Beni
(LOL at Ben.)
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: seán_ on November 04, 2007, 10:07:15 PM
A trick in in completion or 'in' is 4th base an extension of that trick to another to another major point of completion is a different trick trick that is 4th base. The previous trick that formed the basis of the new move then becomes the second base (or 3rd or 1st depending on the complexity of the new move) in relation to the new move but can still be viewed as a 4th base move (with the appropriate 1st 2nd and 3rd base of it's own) in its own right.

Taking it past 4th base is straight forward tweakage unless there is a further possible move where you can then bring all four bases into play again.

Baseball = 4 bases further than that is the dugout maybe with a manly slap on the arse by one of the coaching staff. If your looking for a bigger number of 'bases' may I sugest golf which offers 18 but 4 will cover it nicely for me. :)
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Beni on November 04, 2007, 10:16:11 PM
Yes but since we have 4 bases we might as well have 5th base instead of tweakage. Although however much you tweak a trick, it is still 5th base, because 6th is different.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: seán_ on November 04, 2007, 10:23:24 PM
No Beni there are only 4 thats the beauty and truth of the system.

What do you mean instead of Tweakage? Base theory is a part of tweakage not the other way around, sheesh
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Beni on November 04, 2007, 10:25:48 PM
Yeah but if you can explain a 'basing' combo in relation to trick C then call trick B 4th base and trick A 3rd base, how do you describe it in terms of trick A wihout calling trick C 5th base? If it's a good theory it should be able to work backwards.
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: garner on November 05, 2007, 03:05:03 AM
beni: i think your making my ear dribble and not the good dribble. you may have understood my post which was not its intention. d'oh. but i definately did not gets yours.

P.S. depending on how you veiw it, you coulld easily say that body combos are irrelevant in principle theory. or merely add an appendage for knots/wraps/loops/things as well as the sticks to your 'graph' of key positions. that way you can think up really strange new ways into a key postion you want, i.e by add my head and shoulders to the sticks on my scribble of nodes on paper i realised a brand new sort of body combo (for me). body slacks into combos

garner. zzzzzz....
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Beni on November 05, 2007, 05:06:11 PM
Sheesh for someone who talks about nodes and elements, I thought 5th base would be pretty elemental (haha) ...easy to understand. Nevermind, I'll take the 5th and 6th bases back out of the public eye, hope I didn't cause too much stress ::).
Garner, suprisingly your trying-to-be-inpossible-to-understand post did make some sort of sense, I thought you were just trying to get your thoughts in order by typing, thus making it a little hard to read.

Beni
(*sigh*)
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: LaNgErZ on November 05, 2007, 05:38:22 PM
yeah sean_'s right. tweakage......... maybe i'm on about something different, or i'm just causing trouble........... probably the second

lz
Title: Re: 3rd Base ideoligy
Post by: Chiok on November 06, 2007, 09:54:04 PM
I'm liking how this is progressing.  Perfect idea exploration for late nights and a drink.  Shame I can't do much when I've had a drink.

Chiok
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