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Diabolo.ca Forums => Videos => Tutorials => Topic started by: Kingsid3 on March 21, 2008, 06:48:04 PM

Title: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Kingsid3 on March 21, 2008, 06:48:04 PM
Hey,
I have been looking around for a bit and i haven't found anything on Integral Suicides, i would like a video tutorial if one is available.

Thanks
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Diabolo88 on March 23, 2008, 01:12:59 AM
Me too (with more than just Eric´s).
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: wilyspin on March 24, 2008, 02:52:09 PM
to be downloaded would be even better
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Beni on March 24, 2008, 05:26:49 PM
Why are there always integral requests?
If you're new to integrals, learn a "tomicide" (diabolotricks), then basically work on catching different sticks at different times. If you're out of ideas, trundle over to crackers's youtube account (or on to his topic in the "videos" section) and take a look at his latest video.

Beni
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: garner on March 24, 2008, 05:42:30 PM
the thing is that there should be no tutorial to eric's, antonin's, bloodyclown's, tomicide...unless the person making the tutorial is the creator or has direct permission from the creator. some do have videos and explanations but others don't...
i'd be happy to do a tutorial on the basics of integral-ing at some point but i'd not do a trick in that video if it was somebody else's trick...
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: GbH on March 24, 2008, 06:24:12 PM
the thing is that there should be no tutorial to eric's, antonin's, bloodyclown's, tomicide...unless the person making the tutorial is the creator or has direct permission from the creator. some do have videos and explanations but others don't...
i'd be happy to do a tutorial on the basics of integral-ing at some point but i'd not do a trick in that video if it was somebody else's trick...

I'm sorry, but this is complete garbage.  No-one 'owns' any juggling trick.  Whether you like it or not, technique is in the public domain.  You're free to make whatever tutorial you like.   
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: mellowscholar on March 24, 2008, 06:24:29 PM
I think what would be great is some people's take on the general principle and skills involved in integrals. That's something I can't seem to get the hang of. One of the things I like about them is the scope for expansion and originality.

David
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Beni on March 24, 2008, 06:51:46 PM
General principle of integral suicides: Hold on to string and let sticks fly (originally the definition was that both sticks are free and circling the diabolo in an anti-clockwise direction, but hey, might as well expand the concept).

Start by swinging the right hand stick ACW with the right hand. Then swing it at the diabolo's axle, letting the stick wrap round it, and at the same time let go of the left stick. Then try and catch everything again. It will be messy at first but soon you'll work out which timings end up in which wraps and so on. Then you can work on more ambitious stuff, like incorporating genocides.

Beni 
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Jem on March 24, 2008, 07:08:18 PM
This is one I made over a year ago which may help.

I put it on another thread a while back and a couple of people seemed to think it helped as I recall....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paz4amLYpzo
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: robbie322 on March 24, 2008, 10:22:04 PM
the thing is that there should be no tutorial to eric's, antonin's, bloodyclown's, tomicide...unless the person making the tutorial is the creator or has direct permission from the creator. some do have videos and explanations but others don't...
i'd be happy to do a tutorial on the basics of integral-ing at some point but i'd not do a trick in that video if it was somebody else's trick...

Please don't be silly .no-one could possibly improve in any circus based skill if they didnt learn other people's tricks. it would be impossible to become an accomplished juggler if you didn't  feed from various inspirations and tricks that have already been performed. are you trying to say people shouldnt use any unoriginal tricks in their vids? this simply isnt possible, someone must have 'created' every single trick, ever. the trick in question a tomicide is a fairly new to the diabolo world so must have been invented by someone, therefore by your logic you shouldnt perform it(or any other trick that has been performed before}
 you don't see the greats of the juggling world running around trying to copyright or claim their tricks, if someone uses someone elses tricks it's a compliment not a hindrance to their skill.
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Beni on March 24, 2008, 10:43:14 PM
What's ironic is that the concept of integrals was named and more or less invented by Eric, so any "original" integral is in fact a variation of Eric's.
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: garner on March 24, 2008, 11:59:29 PM
right then. so i'm going to try and avoid getting angry and things...

i never said that you shouldn't learn other peoples tricks. however, i did say that you shouldn't post a tutorial on it without the creators permission. the reason behind this is that they may have worked quite hard on a trick and then to have that time and effort thrown away by people reading or seeing the exact instructions of how to do that trick and making seem almost as easy as breathing.

you don't see the greats of the juggling world running around trying to copyright or claim their tricks, if someone uses someone elses tricks it's a compliment not a hindrance to their skill.
no i don't see them copyrighting. but i do see a lot getting angry when other people come along with the combos and tricks that they created from start to finish.

What's ironic is that the concept of integrals was named and more or less invented by Eric, so any "original" integral is in fact a variation of Eric's.
no beni, thats not irony. thats ignorance. the word integral suicide was invented by eric (personally i think it is taken from the mathematical "integral") however the concept of letting go of everything accept the string wasn't.
+i can think of a great many integrals that DO NOT use eric's integral suicide as a base (the commonly known "antonin's integral")

Garner.
-kick me, suspend me, ban me. i don't care anymore-
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Squiggle on March 25, 2008, 03:24:11 AM
right then. so i'm going to try and avoid getting angry and things...

i never said that you shouldn't learn other peoples tricks. however, i did say that you shouldn't post a tutorial on it without the creators permission. the reason behind this is that they may have worked quite hard on a trick and then to have that time and effort thrown away by people reading or seeing the exact instructions of how to do that trick and making seem almost as easy as breathing.
no i don't see them copyrighting. but i do see a lot getting angry when other people come along with the combos and tricks that they created from start to finish.
no beni, thats not irony. thats ignorance. the word integral suicide was invented by eric (personally i think it is taken from the mathematical "integral") however the concept of letting go of everything accept the string wasn't.
+i can think of a great many integrals that DO NOT use eric's integral suicide as a base (the commonly known "antonin's integral")

Garner.
-kick me, suspend me, ban me. i don't care anymore-

I love you.
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Beni on March 25, 2008, 09:37:59 AM
Of course there are many integrals that don't use Eric's as a base, but the idea of grouping string-held suicides as a concept was his, so therefore anything we call an integral is directly linked to Eric.
I see what you mean about the permission thing. It's nice to ask, but frankly I don't think they give a damn. If someone really has a problem with their trick being taught and enjoyed by a large number of diaboloists with no extra work on their behalf but still retaining credit for the trick, then I guess they can say so and the tutorial can be deleted.

Beni
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Hathaway on March 25, 2008, 10:23:00 AM
Seeing as a lot of people can just learn tricks from watching videos anyway without the need of a tutorial, if people didn't want others doing the trick then why show us a video, if its a cool trick of course people will try to re-create it!

Confucius say, “By three methods we may learn wisdom: first, by reflection, which is noblest; second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third, by experience, which is the most bitter.”

On a side note, perhaps we should stop talking about this now, he only wanted a integral tutorial.
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Kingsid3 on March 25, 2008, 10:49:40 AM
Man, this wasn't ment to turn into a crazy flame war, if you guys don't want to help find or get a tutorial, why  post in this thread?
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: GbH on March 25, 2008, 11:28:33 AM
If Garner's view of this was in any way based on fact, then Diabology could never have got past the publishers.  It would have been an impossible task to gather together permissions from the rightful(?) originators of all that material.  The same thing goes for Diabolo Folies, diabolotricks.com, Donald's books, The Complete Juggler and pretty much any other resource that's ever been published to help people learn diabolo. 

What the MFP did do, however, was to credit some of their influences in the cover notes.  If you're wanting to be respectful to someone's efforts, I think this is a reasonable way to go about it.   

Garner is, of course, entitled to hold and share whatever view he likes.  It's a free forum, after all.  However, if the net result of this opinion turned out to be that people were no longer prepared to share their knowledge, due to worries about non-existent IPR stuff, then I think that that would be a very sad state of affairs. 

Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Duncan on March 25, 2008, 11:47:49 AM
Interesting points indeed and I can see where most are coming from. I agree wholeheartedly about crediting your source - it's the basic thing to do when you're an academic and it should be applied where it's needed in juggling.

But, it's been discussed to death in other threads, so I think we should get back to integral tutorials in this one.
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: gingaling on March 25, 2008, 05:39:50 PM
sheesh this is a bit heated!  Hi everyone i'm new here and i really dont get all the fuss. even if someone made an ABC books step by step guide to any trick anyones ever invented it not like the world and his pet frog will become a master of the diabolo....I know, been tryin to get tricks down for weeks at a time, some of us are just blessed with jambon hands but still like to try and play diabolo!

but yes a step by step guide to integrals would be appreciated!

peas.
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Diabolo88 on March 25, 2008, 08:32:05 PM
I just saw a guy I haven´t met for two years doing one of "my" excaliburtricks in a video.
Two whole years after we met he still likes it enough use and to put in a video. What compliment could be bigger than that? That made me so inspired I went out and filmed all of my tricks from that period (video to be expected soon ;)). I don´t see how anything but good things can come from sharing tricks.

Also as a point, I´ve seen numerous times people who come up with the same stuff on their own. I learnt inf. suicides in excalibur in the backyard a year or two before I even heard of Tempei doing the same thing. Almost impossible to know where the tricks come from anyway so who should you ask for permission?

Sorry, just felt strongly about saying that. It is a sensitive matter for some but really it shouldn´t be.

To get back on the subject, a walkthrough of the infinite integrals would be nice too.
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: robbie322 on March 25, 2008, 08:39:17 PM
I just saw a guy I haven´t met for two years doing one of "my" excaliburtricks in a video.
Two whole years after we met he still likes it enough use and to put in a video. What compliment could be bigger than that? That made me so inspired I went out and filmed all of my tricks from that period (video to be expected soon ;)). I don´t see how anything but good things can come from sharing tricks.

Also as a point, I´ve seen numerous times people who come up with the same stuff on their own. I learnt inf. suicides in excalibur in the backyard a year or two before I even heard of Tempei doing the same thing. Almost impossible to know where the tricks come from anyway so who should you ask for permission?

Sorry, just felt strongly about saying that. It is a sensitive matter for some but really it shouldn´t be.

To get back on the subject, a walkthrough of the infinite integrals would be nice too.

What he said.
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Duncan on March 25, 2008, 08:42:15 PM
Okay, I'm giving this one more post to get back to integral tutorials - if this doesn't happen, it's getting locked. I'm happy that you guys have strong opinions and wish to see the development of juggling. However, there are other threads that have been used to discuss this, so I'd be really happy as well if you went to those ones. This one is well off topic now.
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Diabolo88 on March 25, 2008, 09:16:47 PM
^Sorry :-X.
Title: Re: [REQUEST] Integral tutorial
Post by: Beni on March 26, 2008, 05:30:08 PM
There are other threads (http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=2199.0) about integral tutorials to be fair.
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