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Diabolo.ca Forums => Tricks => Topic started by: Chiok on April 30, 2005, 11:08:25 PM

Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Chiok on April 30, 2005, 11:08:25 PM
After some googling on bogleg and other sources, I wondered whether there was an actually record for the highest throw of a diabolo by an individual.  A guy I know got some arlequinos (or piccolinos, not sure) for christmas, and we've just been chucking them high into the air.  Tried it in our sports hall and it ricocheted off the roof (what other times does an object go that high in a hall?)  And being outdoors now, it just gets thrown higher.

Is there a record for this?  Possibly with people standing on different levels of a hotel or something.

Chiok
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: norbi on May 01, 2005, 01:22:52 AM
well i'd say the record is 'ridiculously high' as there is no good way to measure the height, unless somehow you could attatch a devise to the diabolo that measured the speed it was going, and you could count the airtime, then voila distance = speed x time

But barring that, no way to tell really.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: The Void on May 01, 2005, 01:32:30 AM
Was Newton crucified in vain?

If your physics teacher was alive today, Norbi, she'd turn in her grave.

The Void
..................
Hyperbolic
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: seán_ on May 01, 2005, 01:33:51 AM
or refererence the height against a known height say a building
I know norbi was having some fun with how many pirouettes skips etc beneath a high throw at sheffield. Remis 7 skips and a forward roll a few years back in Leeds is a hard one to beat though.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: norbi on May 01, 2005, 01:35:11 AM
what? 2mph for 2 hours = 4 miles*, right?

*for example
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: seán_ on May 01, 2005, 01:37:31 AM
got to take gravity into consideration Norbi
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Alex on May 01, 2005, 01:44:20 AM
All you have to do is count the time its in the air.  You can figure out how high it went from that.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: seán_ on May 01, 2005, 02:31:59 AM
oops I forgot decelleration due to gravity is a constant. (still easier to measure against a known height though ;) )

Should get Matt_H onto the case, he has a PhD in Physics he should have the required sum type stuff to hand
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: mrpink on May 01, 2005, 07:29:32 AM
If we dont take the airfriction into consideration and apply newtons laws of gravity and a little algebra and the aproximate value 10 for the gravityconstant (its about 9.82 really) the formula to calculate the height of a diabolothrow in terms of airtime becomes

h=1.25*t*t

h is the height in meters
t is the total airtime in seconds

a 4 second throw wuld be aproximatley  1.25*4*4=20 m high
and a 5 second throw 1.25*5*5=30 m
and a 6 second throw 1.25*6*6= 45m



Another way to messure the height of a throw wld be to put an observer (possibly a camera) at a known distance say 20 meters from the thrower.
He wuld then mesure te angle he observes the diabolo in when it peaks.
A little trigionometery is all that is neded to get the result then...
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Ifrit on May 01, 2005, 06:35:23 PM
i remember seeing something on Tv about this guy who did have the record. I think it was about the 5 second mark. but i cant get more than 3 and a half on a good day. However i think his diabolo was abit on the small size.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: el_grimley on May 02, 2005, 06:40:02 PM
You can also work it out if you happen to know the shutter spead on the camera and you can work it out by the length of the motion blur. But as far as high goes I would say uber high.


g is for geek
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Twilite on May 02, 2005, 08:34:46 PM
Displacement = 0.5 * acceleration * time * time

I do believe, where acceleration (decelleration in this case) is 9.81, gravity.

I'm here instead of revising for my physics exams, so I hope that's right!
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Andy on May 02, 2005, 10:53:39 PM
just remember you have to half the time to get the time it was at the top, and also that the acceleration due to gravity is negative. You also need to know the velocity at the start if this is the method - using
distance = - acc due to gravity * time * time + velocity at start * time

it would be much easier to do the trig and angle method mentioned above somewhere using a clinometer i think its called...
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Alex on May 02, 2005, 11:42:22 PM
I just worked this out.  In this case, t (time) would be half of the recorded time, so it would be just the time going up:

Given:
Vf^2 = Vi^2 + at
x = .5at^2 + Vit

Work:
Vf^2 = Vi^2 + at

Vf = 0

a = -9.8

9.8t = Vi^2

Vi = root (9.8t)


x = .5at^2 + Vit

x = -4.9 t^2 + t * root (9.8t)


I believe that should be right.  If anyone spots a mistake, please point it out.  Also, it could probably be simplified a bit more, but I'm kinda lazy.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Yoda on May 02, 2005, 11:59:59 PM
Well, I just found the guy who can do the highest throw ever, and I doubt anyone can beat him!

Open the DSSS and type z0000000000000000000000000000000000 in the high pattern. I counted 35 seconds.
If we calculate the height, with gravity as 10m/s^2
V=v+at
0=v-10*35
v=350

S=v*t+1/2a*t^2
S=12250+6125
S=18375m

So, if newton was correct (unfortunately he wasn't) the guy threw it up 18,375 Kilometers high. :shock:


Can anyone beat him??? :lol:
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Andy on May 03, 2005, 07:14:30 AM
Alex - its Vf^2 = Vi^2 2ax
Yoda - You forgot to half the time - the velocity when the time equals 35 is the opposite to the starting velocity ie 2v = 350 so his throw would be only just over 12km(!) should point out you can change his speed - it would appear he can throw higher....
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: mrpink on May 03, 2005, 02:14:02 PM
I did a high throw last summer , it still hasn't come down...
But since its kind of stuck on top of a roof I dont think it beats the 12k throw...
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: lemony on May 04, 2005, 05:13:07 PM
well i could be wrong but i rather thought the equation was just

Code: [Select]
(time/2)^2 * a = H

(think in terms of units, time is in s, accelleration is in M/s^2 therefore the result must be in metres)


which means that given that i can do just over a 4 second throw (timed by a mate yesterday) then i can throw:

Code: [Select]
(4/2) = 2

2^2 = 4

4*10 = 40 Metres high (taking gravity as 10M/s^2)


that seems vaguely feasible to me... but correct me if i'm being dense
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Chiok on May 04, 2005, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: lemony

Code: [Select]
(4/2) = 2

2^2 = 4

4*10 = 40 Metres high (taking gravity as 10M/s^2)


Well, you square the time first and then divide by 2, so actually it's 80m IF it took 4 seconds to come down from the top of it's fall (i.e at rest).  If you started timing from when it started coming down, then it would have been an 78.48m throw if assumed no air resistance and only under the effect of gravity.

Of course it's hard to say when it starts coming down, and also the acceleration of it going up isn't the same as it coming down because you threw it.  I'm still in favour of the tall building with windows and standing on the right floor.

Chiok
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Sean on May 04, 2005, 07:15:04 PM
Quote from: xfirebladex
the acceleration of it going up isn't the same as it coming down because you threw it.

Excuse me? :-s

Ignoring air friction, a projectile will have a constant acceleration towards the Earth of 9.81 m/s*s.

Accounting for air friction, the downward acceleration will be greater going up than coming down.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: mrpink on May 04, 2005, 08:14:00 PM
Some confusion and lots of formulas... so Ill just add some more...
More about gravity and falling objects can be found in wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity#Newton.27s_law_of_universal_gravitation

The formula I found there for calculating the distance traveled for a freely falling object falling t seconds is
d=1/2*g*t^2

Formula for calculating diabolothrowheight becomes
h=g/2(time/2)^2   (here t is the total airtime)
aproximating g=10 we can simplify and get

h=5/4*t^2 alternativley

h=1.25*t*t (wich is verry easy to remember)

t is still the total airtime upp and down.


Lemony you forgot  the factor 1/2 in your formula so your throw is sadly enough just 20 m...
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: JGherkin on May 05, 2005, 07:42:57 PM
Regarding Seans confusion over what xfirebladex said, Sean is assuming acceleration on the way up as a negative acceleration, the decelleration as it travels, whereas xfirebladex is assuming the acceleration from the throw, the acceleration of the diabolo from the start of the throw through to when you release it..........I could be wrong though :)

I swear I've just been doing this in physics getting ready for my exam in a couple of weeks but its all way above my head...o dear  :(
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Sean on May 05, 2005, 09:31:10 PM
Quote from: JGherkin
xfirebladex is assuming the acceleration from the throw, the acceleration of the diabolo from the start of the throw through to when you release it

That could be, but knowing the acceleration during the throw isn't necessary to find out the height of the throw in this situation. All you need is the time from release back to the same point. Sure, you could also calculate the peak height if you knew the acceleration applied to the diabolo and the quantity of time that that acceleration was applied for... but measuring that acceleration accurately wouldn't be easy, not to mention that the acceleration applied by throwing a diabolo is unlikely to be constant. Then we get into "jerk" (or "jolt" for some of you UKers) and so on... timing the throw is much simpler. :)

Regarding a point made earlier about not knowing when it will reach its peak:
The diabolo will reach its peak at exactly half the total time and be caught with the same speed as it was thrown with (assuming no air friction).
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Chiok on May 07, 2005, 04:59:12 PM
Quote from: Sean
Then we get into "jerk" (or "jolt" for some of you UKers) and so on... timing the throw is much simpler. :)
Regarding a point made earlier about not knowing when it will reach its peak:
The diabolo will reach its peak at exactly half the total time and be caught with the same speed as it was thrown with (assuming no air friction).

Oh right, I thought the speed at which it went up wouldn't be the same as you're giving it force to send it up.  I thought it would be travelling faster.  Possibly not, I'm really not sure (about it going up.)

I'm in the UK and I thought they were called "jerks" too, and then rate of jerks is snaps, rate or snaps is crackles, rate of crackles is pops.
I kid you not.

Chiok
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: kragen on May 08, 2005, 02:26:00 PM
ok, even though several people have the answer, all the explanations are fairly difficult to follow, so here is my attempt :P

Ignoring air resistance and all the other complicated stuf, the height of the diabolo with time is a parabola:

Code: [Select]
h = v t - 1/2 g t^2

where h is the height at time t, and v is the initial velocity that the diabolo was thown at.

Code: [Select]
h = t ( v - 1/2 g t )

This equals 0 at two points, when t=0, i.e. when the diabolo is thrown, and when v = 0.5 g t, when it hits the ground again. We know the time at this point (because we carefully timed it :P) so lets call it time T, meaning we know v.

Code: [Select]
v = 1/2 g T

The maximum height is at time T / 2, so substituting v, and t = T / 2 into the eq-n for h...

Code: [Select]
H = 1/2 g T ( 1/2 T ) - 1/2 g ( 1/2 T )^2

H = g / 8 * T^2


Where g = 9.8 (approximately) is the gravity constant for earth, H is the maximum height the diabolo reaches, and T is the time it took to go up and come back down again :)

Sorry, that was probably more long-winded than neccessary, but I was having problems following the other explanations, and im on the 2nd year of a maths degree :P

Here is a pretty picture:

(http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ma3jtp/random/diabolo.JPG)
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: mrpink on May 08, 2005, 06:19:56 PM
So now we have a formula that is easy for annybody to use.'
How about some experimenting?
It would be great if we could have some actual record atempts here as well.
What is the highest throw you can do? (and is it sientifistically documented?).
Mabe we wont find the highest throw ever done but it culd be fun annyway...
Title: high throws
Post by: Matt_H on May 09, 2005, 11:53:15 AM
Well i jumped on this one a bit late but Kragen's analysis is correct, all that is needed are the equations of motion, as for negative sign for gravity (-9.81) this just denotes the direction of the acceleration so when using the formula

D=ut + 1/2at^2

the distance will come out negative as the diabolo is traveling down and the time, t is half the total time of flight.

regards

Dr Matt_h

p.s. i do have a Ph.D in Physics.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: seán_ on May 09, 2005, 01:12:42 PM
Define your terms slacker.

Do they give Phd's out with cereal boxes these days? No wonder we have three doctors at Hullabaloo juggling club.

how about nailing the friction issue and the initial variance in starting height?
Title: high throws
Post by: Matt_H on May 09, 2005, 01:15:56 PM
Oi listen here ya cheeky git, as i said Kragens analysis is correct so the terms  in the tiny formula i put in are defined in his post ...... or did you not read that  :wink:

if you really want me to do the friction analysis i will but you may regret it !



regards

Dr Matt_h
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: seán_ on May 09, 2005, 01:29:57 PM
you're the one who is allways banging on about the lementable state of undergrads work so of course I read it (and looked at the great graph), but I was expecting a full analysis from you.

Any body with more nouse than me willing to rattle of a ready reckoner table so we can easily work out heights from times?
Title: high throws
Post by: Matt_H on May 09, 2005, 01:54:36 PM
what do you need a ready reckoner table for ?

distance in meters = (10 x (t x t))/2
 t is time in seconds, use the total time from throw to it hitting you in the head divided by 2.

so a throw lasting 2 seconds means t =1 so thats 10/2 = 5 metres,
4 seconds means t = 2 so thats (10 x (2 x 2))/2 = 20 metres,

now Sean_ i'm sure you can do a little maths in ya head   :wink:

Later

Dr Matt_H
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: seán_ on May 09, 2005, 02:16:38 PM
look, its fingers for counting or fingers for holding the handsticks! One or the other.

I cant do your height fudge (rewriting newtonian physics) AND work out the full fluid mechanics analysis (not a mere laminar one) without taking my shoes of either.

F= 1/2rC Au^2 = 1/2 prC r^2u (C being the drag coeficient, 0.42 for a smooth sphere, so another guestimate required there)

I'm going to stick to my photographic memory* to picture a heights throw and compare it to buildings of known height for the moment.

*more of an amatuer photographic memory actually. Some of the images are out of focus, a lot of peoples heads are out of shot and there is this whole black section from 17 - 21 years old when I left the lens cap on
Title: high throws
Post by: Matt_H on May 09, 2005, 02:20:54 PM
O i see laminar flows ey, maybe you would like to explain them to the rest of the group  :wink:

or maybe you'll wait till i explain it to you over messanger then paste it in hey Sean_  :wink:

lol


regards

Dr Matt_h
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: seán_ on May 09, 2005, 02:30:41 PM
I could but that would involve effort on my part. I might as well point them to this
http://academic.reed.edu/physics/courses/Phys100/Lab%20Manuals/Air%20Resistance/Air.Resistance.pdf
as it has pretty pictures and everything (and it saves you having to write it all out in messenger longhand ;) )
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: mrpink on May 09, 2005, 02:57:11 PM
Wow fluid dynamics... soon we will have people talking about chaostheory and  silly butterflies making bad wether...
Dont get me wrong, I really think this is quiet interesting.
The diabolo is spinning pretty quickly. How does this affect the air resistance?
If I want to throw high shuld i have lots of spinn or barley enough to keep it stable?
Title: high throws
Post by: Matt_H on May 09, 2005, 03:03:58 PM
if you consider just the rotation/spin of the diabolo in the air then the diabolo will slow down due to air resistance so its just the same frictional problem but applied to the spin rather than the diabolo falling. Either way the difference it makes in the hieght calculations is small enough to be ignored.
The other consideration is that the diabolo is launched from a standing position and not the floor so your measurement of the time as being 1/2 the total time in flight (from throw to landing) is not strictly true and is therfore the largest source of error .

now about chaos theory ...........................

regards

Dr Matt_H
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: seán_ on May 09, 2005, 03:06:15 PM
I have mulled over that in recent days, the spin rate would come in somewhere and in all honesty I reckon Dr Matt's the man to answer then but unless it had a great bearing on results I would say the two points to remember with spin for high throws are

1. low spin = les stable and less forgiving when you launch it
2. high spin = more stable and running further after it if you drop it :)

As you can see, Best left to Dr. Matt_H (whom I failed to credit for previous link. Will the accusations of academic mallpractise ever cease?)
Title: high throws
Post by: Matt_H on May 09, 2005, 03:08:25 PM
Fair point Sean, with the diabolo spinning faster it is more likely to not to tumble and hence a more stable path will be followed by the diabolo.

regards

Dr Matt_H
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: seán_ on May 09, 2005, 03:17:00 PM
but on a deeper level, would the rotatinal forces affect the actual diabolos flight, Say in relation to air friction, lift or some kind of freaky antigravity deal?

to further show my lack of understanding when it comes to physics, I do have time for the theory that you can achive both levitation and perpetual motion by strapping a piece of buttered toast (butter side up) to the back of a cat then let go of the cat
Title: high throw
Post by: Matt_H on May 09, 2005, 03:19:03 PM
No
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: seán_ on May 09, 2005, 03:32:37 PM
Oops sorry didnt spot the earlier reply.
One final point from me that Dr Matt brought up on our long drive to Brum. Since the diabolo is not so likely to reach terminal velocity and since we are making plenty of fudges with regard to the friction issue, it is justifiable to use 10 as the value of G rather than the fancy 9.81
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Spooned on May 09, 2005, 05:48:56 PM
Hmm, interesting stuff (in too deep) apparently (according to the internet http://www.recordholders.org/en/members.html) the highest throw is 29.55m. But like most of t'internet dont know if its true or  not. (:roll: damn liars.)

@Sean_ surley the buttered toast should be replaced by chicken tikka to futher the stain and hence the levitation factor would be higher :lol:
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: seán_ on May 09, 2005, 06:14:16 PM
now all we need to know is the difference between standard and freestyle.

@Spooned: surely chiken tikka would fall off, unless it had a lid thus negating its floor attracting properties. the only serious research I have seen has used buttered toast although some people have postulated strawbery  jam might also be of use
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Ed on May 09, 2005, 07:00:01 PM
When you see the record on that website there is a link next to it which reads: PHOTO
When you click it it comes up with a guy doing a 1 Diabolo trick, does anyone know what sticks he is using?
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Mattias on May 09, 2005, 07:02:43 PM
Surely I had to read those tiny texts annoying the crap out of my eyes :P

To add to the topic. I will have to try to time my throws next time I go out to juggle

EDIT: Maybe not add as much as keep it on-topic
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Hoop on May 09, 2005, 07:04:19 PM
Does it make a difference how long your string is when going for record heights?  Also, do you throw as if you are juggling,*(catch on right, roll to left and then launch) or just have it bottomed out in the middle and toss?
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Mattias on May 09, 2005, 07:06:01 PM
for high toss I would have the diabolo on the middle of the string with stiscks close together, then at the same time jump, pull sticks apart and throw arms uppwards.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Hoop on May 09, 2005, 07:07:45 PM
That's pretty much what I do!  That little jump is funny though, isn't it?
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Mattias on May 09, 2005, 07:33:37 PM
haha, indeed it is. No idea if it is necessary though.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: mrpink on May 09, 2005, 08:18:32 PM
twentynineandahalf?? Even I can do better than that
(with one of those tiny little diabolo thingies annyway).
Out and toss and steal  this german record before I do...
I think the jump is pretty funky too and if well timed (just before diabolo leaves the string i belive...) it will increase the velocity of the diabolo.
Maybe it helps to scream as well  (some discus throwers do that...)
And wearing a silly hat is verry good as well.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Arjan on May 09, 2005, 08:44:01 PM
Quote from: Hoop
Does it make a difference how long your string is when going for record heights?  Also, do you throw as if you are juggling,*(catch on right, roll to left and then launch) or just have it bottomed out in the middle and toss?


String lenght does have something to do with the precision of the throw. Maybe also with the height. But offcourse each advantage has it`s disadvantage.
I would say a shorter string than normal could throw higher, because when you pull the sticks open, the string will be straight much faster.
But I don`t think this works with a 15 centimeter long string.. so, there is another value to consider. (The words in this post are not chosen right, replace some to make it logical)
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: BlueNovember on May 09, 2005, 09:47:54 PM
The ideal string legth would be taut when your arms are almost fully oustretched.

You can no longer accelerate the diabolo once the string is taut unless you are moving the string vertically upwards; ie jumping. Therefore the longer the diabolo is moving upwards under a non-fully taut string the better.

(For the interested, this is from Impulse = Change in momentum/Time. :P It's the same principle that car seatbelts work by; Increasing the time taken for your momentum to be reduced to near 0 will decrease the impulse on your body.)

A lighter diabolo, longer strings, longer arms, and taller person would acheive the best results. If you're on the top of Everest you'd also have the advantage of weaker gravity (marginally) and thinner atmosphere, but that's pushing it a bit.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Sean on May 09, 2005, 11:38:55 PM
The height will be greater with:
1. a greater force applied
2. applying that force over as long a period of time as possible

(which together represent impulse)

A longer string will allow for the force to be applied over a longer period of time; however, muscle strength is not constant over all muscle lengths and when above an optimal muscle length, will not produce the same force. You could therefore find a point where string length is optimized. The biomechanics of the throwing action are complicated, but there would be a length for each person where the force produced would be optimized, and this is unlikely to be at the point where your arms are completely outstretched. I think we could best discover this through trial and error rather than complex biomechanical models on a phpBB forum. ;)

As to the small jump: it will either add to the length of time the force is applied for or will contribute a greater force over the same time (depending on the timing) and thereby increase the impulse as well. Therefore, that silly jump, if timed correctly, will contribute to the maximum height reached by the diabolo. And add infinitely to the coolness factor of the diabolo. :roll:

In sticking with the small text fad:
And I thought 3 years of a kinesiology undergrad degree would be useless.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Chiok on May 10, 2005, 10:07:54 AM
Blimey, lots of physics there.  Here's my science,

Laminar flow is a flow described when the Reynolds number is below a certain value (5000 for a sphere?).  Anything above this and you have turbulent flow where Bernoullis equations don't apply and everything kinda goes out of the window when it comes to equations.
As for air resistance or drag, then there is skin friction drag and there is pressure drag.  blah di blah...  But there's a reason why golf balls have dimples, like the birdie and eagle diabolos.  Something to do with wanting turbulent flow to reduce pressure drag on an object.

As for the jump, don't know why it happens, but you always want to jump.  I think it adds a lil something to the coolness factor as well.

Chiok
(moving up in a masters of mechanical engineering)
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Hoop on May 10, 2005, 04:54:03 PM
Wow, you guys make me want to be an engineer. Does the height record attempt have to be caught on the string to count?  I think it should or else you haven't really succeeded in performing a trick have you?> Now... how about a longest toss (horizontal distance) record?
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: ronnie2tone on May 10, 2005, 07:42:33 PM
Carrying on the horizontal theme, I've been mucking about with grind to grind catches, but where you launch the diabolo from the stick up and off to the left or right and run after it and catch it again in a grind.

Not measured anything so far but best must be about 18ft (~5 metres).

World record? :lol:
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Monregi on May 10, 2005, 08:30:18 PM
Yeah ronnie, the current world record is yours.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: jw on May 10, 2005, 11:23:50 PM
Quote from: xfirebladex

Laminar flow is a flow described when the Reynolds number is below a certain value (5000 for a sphere?).  Anything above this and you have turbulent flow where Bernoullis equations don't apply and everything kinda goes out of the window when it comes to equations.


It's 1000 I believe.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Hoop on May 11, 2005, 03:25:44 PM
I propose a world record attempt at longest daisy chain of diabolo passing.  Several diaboloists (hopefully members from this forum and myself will be included) stand a good distance apart and pass a single diabolo without building speed (only what is generated from the catch and throw) and toss it to the next participant, to see how much ground distance can be covered.  This could be done at a large juggling event.  With the same configuration (maybe tightened up a bit) a world record attempt at most diabolos in play *(being passed) could also be made.  Or have these already been done?   :P
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: hammerhead on May 26, 2005, 03:45:45 PM
or alternatively film it with a heght guide (basically a huge ruler) in the background then watch the slow motion replay? you do, of course need an adjudicator(sp?) involved for it to actually be recognised as a record
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: seán_ on May 26, 2005, 04:10:44 PM
Dont forget parralex errors, the excuse I use when caught speeding (well the one I always planned to use when I own a car capable of speeding)
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Spooned on May 26, 2005, 06:47:18 PM
Do you mean PARALLAX errors?
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: youshouldneverthrowacat on May 16, 2006, 08:54:51 PM
Here's an illustrated guide to high throwing...

Step 1: The Lift

Start with the diabolo as low as possible.
Seperate the handsticks as quickly as possible.

The diabolo will gain momentum and accelerate upwards.

(http://img347.imageshack.us/img347/25/step18uz.th.png) (http://img347.imageshack.us/my.php?image=step18uz.png)


Step 2: The Jump

As you nearly reach your full span, jump while keeping outward pressure on the sticks.

This jump will allow your nearly taut string to stay in contact with the diabolo and some of the kinetic energy of your jump is imparted into the diabolo.

(http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/6152/step22pg.th.png) (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=step22pg.png)


Step 3: The Reach

As you near the peak of your jump, raise your arms high above you while keeping the string taut.

Starting with the diabolo low allows a larger followthrough here.
Raising your arms allows the diabolo to remain in contact with the string for longer.
Again, some of the kinetic energy involved in reaching upwards will be imparted into the diabolo.

(http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/750/step38wn.th.png) (http://img350.imageshack.us/my.php?image=step38wn.png)


As your arms reach their peak, the diabolo will fly off into the air... 29.55m is nothing compared to what you'll get.

As regards height, 1.25(Total time squared) has always done me fine for my astrophysics course (proved emperically below) and if you're worried about air friction, a rough guide is to use 9.79 instead of 9.81 for gravity when objects are coming down and -9.84 for when they're going up (ya, air resistance will effect a small object like a diabolo that little).
Use 10 for g... it's just easier!

T = total flight time
t = T/2
v = final velocity
u = inital velocity
s = height reached
g = acceleration due to gravity (=10 approx.)

v = u + at (by Newton)

v = 0 at peak

u=gt
-------------------------------

s=(ut)+(1/2)(a)(t*t) (by Newton)

so s=(gtt)-(1/2)(g)(t*t)

s=(g*t*t)-(1/2)(g*t*t)

s=1/2 g*t*t

s=1/2 (g)*(T*T)/4

s=(g*T*T)/8

since g = 10 approx.
*************************************
*height reached = 1.25(Total time squared)*
*************************************
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: mango on May 17, 2006, 01:23:39 PM
who is that? something else, i saw someone (forgot who) threw very high in one of the 2005 wjf clips and skip roped many times.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Arjan on May 17, 2006, 04:04:29 PM
William I guess..
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: seán_ on May 18, 2006, 03:51:16 AM
Tempei likes his skipping too
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: mango on July 05, 2006, 12:55:39 AM
it's william i beleive.  he only did 5 skips.
Title: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: nezzybaby on July 05, 2006, 07:28:27 AM
never saw this thread first time round, and i have to say come on people GCSE maths here. Newtons equations of motion, come on it doesn't get much simpler. Of course the correct equation has been posted on several occasions, but it took 5 pages to get people to agree on what should be common knowledge.

I thought diabolists were smart people, look at the mad french posse, half of them are engineers.
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: One-Shot-Kill on December 04, 2006, 05:29:42 AM
I have a friend who got this no-name brand diabolo for christmas last year and it's really, really, really small. (there might be smaller but I haven't seen every signle diabolo in the world so yeah). Anyway I was throwing it pretty high so there might be a record there but it's kind of hard to record lol. Oh well
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Christopher on December 04, 2006, 07:56:00 AM
If you have naranja's complete diabolo dvd/video there was a part where Ryo threw the diabolo ten stories high.  not sure if it's true due to the size of the ten story building they used to measure.
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: DiaboloWebb on December 04, 2006, 11:07:07 AM
i've thrown a my sisters arlequino (sp?) about 25m, i know this because i went to a hall, the roof was about 25m high, it hit the roof and fell so ya....25m
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Christopher on December 04, 2006, 02:02:52 PM
i think it only counts if you catch it.  are you sure the hall's ceiling is 25m high?
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: DiaboloWebb on December 04, 2006, 06:16:43 PM
yup, very sure, we had to work out a way to successfully measure the height of the hall for a physics experiment. it was 25m and it hit a peice of framework that wasn't to far off the ceiling so it's easier to just say 25m :D
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Christopher on December 05, 2006, 08:23:30 AM
but its still about 5 meters untill you break the world record.  25 meters= about 80ft.  WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: crunchy on December 05, 2006, 10:44:53 PM
hi i have made a bet with a friend of mine that i could throw over a church in my city, and another friend has to catch it at the otherside of the church.  .
Now, the church is about 50 metres high and 30 metres wide with 2 roofs. I've tried it once with a small Henry Jazz and small rope and i came to a few problems.
First of all: Width:  Throwing it up 50 metres seems impossible but isn't (I ve thrown it 5 metres under the top roof's edge, whereby my diabolo didn(t came back and still lays in the upper gutter of this church) , but with this challenge i have to throw it high and far.  So i figured i just have to have a little luck with the wind.

Second problem: the catcher :  Normally this guy can catch very good, but when it comes from 50 metres and 30 metres further with good wind, i m affraid the diabolo will just BURN through his rope :p

Maybe somebody has tips, cause the stake of the bet is fairly high (money, embaressment, ...)

If you want to bet, I accept Visa  :D

I ve been sort of planning this for 3 months and think of performing it early spring (between winter (windy) and spring (not raining)

Crunchy
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Matt_ on December 06, 2006, 12:59:33 AM
Videotape is necessary ;) 50m is crazy.
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Jussi on December 20, 2006, 12:53:08 PM
hi i have made a bet with a friend of mine that i could throw over a church in my city, and another friend has to catch it at the otherside of the church.  .
Now, the church is about 50 metres high and 30 metres wide with 2 roofs. I've tried it once with a small Henry Jazz and small rope and i came to a few problems.
First of all: Width:  Throwing it up 50 metres seems impossible but isn't (I ve thrown it 5 metres under the top roof's edge, whereby my diabolo didn(t came back and still lays in the upper gutter of this church) , but with this challenge i have to throw it high and far.  So i figured i just have to have a little luck with the wind.

Second problem: the catcher :  Normally this guy can catch very good, but when it comes from 50 metres and 30 metres further with good wind, i m affraid the diabolo will just BURN through his rope :p

Maybe somebody has tips, cause the stake of the bet is fairly high (money, embaressment, ...)

If you want to bet, I accept Visa  :D

I ve been sort of planning this for 3 months and think of performing it early spring (between winter (windy) and spring (not raining)

Crunchy


you must try with very little diabolo with some weights maybe.. maybe jazz is good enough.. test some rubberstrings also - and try different lenghts.. that isnt impossible, but its hard..

second problem is not problem at all i think..
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: jimjam_95 on December 20, 2006, 07:22:17 PM
it would be the speed x the average spins per second and you would get the answer
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Steve-O on December 21, 2006, 07:06:43 AM
50m is ridiculous, that is about 170 feet and that is reallllly high. I doubt you can do it, if you can that would be sweet and if you get a video of it I think that would be a record.

-Matt
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: DiaboloWebb on December 23, 2006, 09:03:08 PM
arlequino? and practice 2d passing with 2 arlequino's that would get you practicing  8)
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: crunchy on December 23, 2006, 10:01:24 PM
thanks for all the advice guys and ofcourse I ll put it on video.

It s not ridiculous coz i allready tried it once and came 5 metres short.  If i modify and keep trying it will work.
only tried it with jazz so i have a lot of diabolo's to buy.
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: bombmistro on May 17, 2009, 09:24:45 PM
hey what about an accelerometer to measure the speed it is going accelerometer are fairly small and should beable to attach fairly easily then you take the airtime and speed and voilà you have the hight
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Einherjer on May 17, 2009, 10:53:53 PM
They should begin to sell small attachments that can measure height. Would really be cool to see how high it goes.
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: K on May 18, 2009, 08:00:21 AM
That would be good! Ive hit the roof in the PCYC or whatever its called. Its a gym. I did that and got 3 spins. Could'v gotten 4 if I was lucky. Also Bombmistro look at the time of the last post. Took me a few days to get used to not posting if its old.

-K
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: William on May 24, 2009, 11:51:44 PM
But how many spins isn't a good indication of how high you threw it. I know I can get double spins under an 8ft roof.
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Simalacrum on June 05, 2009, 09:26:21 AM
dear lord, looknig through this thread it looks more like a maths lesson rather than discussion on diabolo  :o
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: bombmistro on June 07, 2009, 06:06:56 PM

William if you are replying to my post I am not looking at spins I am looking at putting it on the axle so that it is center
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: spriggs on October 11, 2009, 08:37:01 PM
there is a device, cant remember what it is called but they use it for weather bloons, and remotcontrol spy planes they use in army, works with satalite to determin how far from ground it is. bit extream for a diabolo but i am sure it would work.
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: ERIK da blue on October 12, 2009, 08:44:36 PM
there is a device, cant remember what it is called but they use it for weather bloons, and remotcontrol spy planes they use in army, works with satalite to determin how far from ground it is. bit extream for a diabolo but i am sure it would work.

next finesse evo kit. altitude meter!
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: spriggs on October 12, 2009, 09:00:55 PM
yes this would be very cool i would have 1. 8)
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Richard on October 12, 2009, 10:49:28 PM
At the MJC this year I threw up the smallest diabolo I could find (sorta like a little Henrys yo yo).  We calculated (using Newton's law) that it went 21m.  Not sure if this is the highest but I reckon 29m would be freakish.
Title: Re: Is there a record for High Toss? (29.55m)
Post by: Icebox on December 12, 2009, 04:14:20 PM
I threw my arlequino about 5.5-6 seconds, i'll use 5.5, so upward time = ~2.75 seconds, 1/2*g*t*t= 5*7.5625= 37.8125m. WR?
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