Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - Ronnie

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 20
1
Videos of the Week / Re: VOTW restart
« on: May 22, 2019, 02:35:49 PM »
I think an Instagram, facebook & maybe YouTube combo account would work quite well. It would just be a good platform for people to gain recognition like the ijajugglers instagram page. It might even serve as a good place to share things about IDA events and just general conventions and such. Only thing is it would not survive as a weekly thing, it would have to be a more VOTD or even more frequent kind of deal because of the pace of the internet. There's similar pages to this but as Damian said they don't always ask for permission etc. I'd be happy to see something like this, curious to know if others are.

2
Gear / Re: Hyperspin: lights and shadows (diabolo review)
« on: September 21, 2018, 10:08:16 PM »
Quote
Current status, new fixed axle model is produced, is being tested by the European distributor of Hyperspin, which is Oddballs. As soon as can be confirmed that the new product is good enough they may start producing and sending them in bigger scale. Maybe by end of the year... Fingers crossed

Well it's taken a lot longer than expected but the fixed axle versions are available. I tested them around September of last year for Oddballs when Wis wrote this review and since they are finally available I wanted to make the review public. I wrote an original review about a year ago and I have updated it for this forum so it includes some comments about diabolo design which I consider when I test diabolos with the aim of being transparent. I hope that if you are unsure whether to splash out and buy these diabolos then you will sit through my rambling and you will come out at the end of it with a more informed opinion.

Let’s start things off with the design, personally I find it is stunning. Obviously aesthetics are subjective and while I have heard some people joking about not wanting to ‘spin a flower around’ it is my personal opinion that once it is spinning the effect of a perfectly transparent inner hub slowly merging with a normal coloured cup is quite mesmerising. The vibrant colours (apart from the purple which seemed rather dark for my taste) are easy to see. They also work far better with LEDs than any other diabolos I have seen thanks to the aforementioned transparent section. While many may argue that aesthetics are secondary to everything I feel that in this day and age where diabolos are very similar in many respects we have the freedom to let aesthetics influence our buying decision much more. One must also remember that diabolo is an art and a form of expression upon which many people base their careers. It is an inherently visual art and making a diabolo that looks good is an important factor in performances and video production that many take into consideration. I think it’s also important to mention that Hyperspin have managed to make the transition between the two materials completely seamless, not once did my string catch on an imperfection and that is hard enough to achieve with a normal diabolo let alone one with such a complex design.

After testing the diabolos for a brief period of time I was left scratching my head as to how Hyperspin managed to make a diabolo that feels so smooth on their first attempt. This diabolo has first class dimensions and proportions which are very similar to that of a Sundia EVO which for years has been my go-to diabolo. The weight is a very interesting subject since they actually managed to fool me for my first few practice sessions into being lighter than they actually are. It wasn’t until a friend of mine asked me whether I found the Hyperspin diabolos a bit too heavy that I started getting suspicious. I am a numbers juggler and saving as little as 10g on each diabolo means that when I juggle 3, 4 or even 5 I am saving 30g, 40g or even 50g respectively which is definitely noticeable. I decided to measure the weight of the Hyperspins and found that the weight was the weight impeccably consistent, this deserves a lot of emphasis since a difference of a gram or two in one cup is enough to make a diabolo favour turning in a certain direction which makes juggling multiple diabolos very difficult since you have to constantly focus on correcting the diabolos rather than concentrating on the trick you are about to attempt. I remember being baffled when I went to a convention abroad and had to disassemble my old Sundia diabolos and upon assembling them again at the convention I realised one or two were persistently favouring a certain direction and turning within a couple of rounds. I fixed the problem very easily by measuring the weight of the cups and pairing them with their most similar counterpart and haven’t been bothered since however I haven’t disassembled any diabolos when going abroad for many years since travelling with weighing scales is inconvenient to say the least.

After measuring them I discovered that they were a whole 18g heavier than my Sundia diabolos (which weigh 230g). I was surprised to find that I failed to spot such a drastic difference after first picking them up. When swapping between the EVOs and the Hyperspins directly it became clear that one was heavier than the other but not an 18g difference. I believe that this has a lot to do with the weight distribution that Hyperspin decided to go with, I am very happy that on their first attempt Hyperspin managed to make such a good job with their design, it shows that they have really committed to their R&D which means a lot since buyers can be sure they aren’t buying a ‘Gen 1’ product that is going to become obsolete within a few months or years but rather a fully developed diabolo. Like with any other aspects weight is subjective, I found this diabolo to be really good for 3 diabolos and high diabolo where an increased weight provides stability at low speed and lets you know that the ‘diabolo is there’. When I say this I have in mind tricks such as a 3 diabolo low cascade or mini columns which I like to call ‘manipulation’ tricks. When doing these tricks you have to rely heavily on using the weight of an incoming diabolo to your advantage so that you may throw it against its spin and a tiny bit of extra weight often provides that much needed 'feedback' through the string. While this means that I wouldn’t personally use these diabolos for long 4 or 5 diabolo sessions due to the added weight I am content with Hyperspin choosing this weight since it isn’t too heavy to get very tired nor is it so light that it ruins the structural integrity. To clarify I have used these for both 4 and 5 many times for half-hour to hour-long jams but for longer intense practice sessions I have chosen to go for lighter diabolos instead.

The axle is really something special as well and I know I am not the only one who has noticed. It has a very similar design to the Sundia EVO diabolos and it has been executed just as well. There are many hurdles that must be overcome when designing an axle and this has managed to pass them all. A wide axle is very nice to have especially if you want to hold the diabolo by the axle, like Henri Kangas does with his ingenious diabolo style or countless other people do when they try to master the 4 diabolo hover (or 5D hover in my case ;) ). An example of this being an issue are Taibolo diabolos which often apply too much pressure to the index finger to be able to do this comfortably (granted I may have very large, chunky hands but I can’t imagine it is much easier for other people). Luckily Hyperspin have avoided this trap and their diabolos are very nice to hold. Having a wide axle is all well and good however if you make the axle too big it not only makes the diabolo heavier as a whole but it also drastically changed the weight distribution (I imagine anyone who has owned the old Sundia Sun heavy edition diabolos are nodding in agreement here). Luckily Hyperspin seem to have used light materials for the axle so they don’t set any alarms off here either. The shape is also good, besides discrepancy in weight between cups there is another factor which may cause a diabolo to turn either away from you or towards you and that is the hubs/axle hitting the string either too far or too close to the player respectively. This effect is very noticeable with Epic diabolos, the axle itself is small (presumably to save on weight since the diabolo is heavy enough as it is) but the hubs provide a large area of contact and unless you catch the diabolo just right it they will alter the diabolo’s orientation, perhaps under certain circumstances this may be useful to some but in general I find it irritating since it means more corrections are needed. Luckily for Hyperspin, since both the hubs are small and seamlessly integrated and since the axle has a good shape this effect does not take place.

There are a few more personal comments that I wish to add about this diabolo. Firstly I think it is important to mention how great these diabolos feel when doing suns. Since I first got them I loved doing continuous 53 suns and 3 diabolo feeds with them and they really lived up to their name ‘hyperspin’ since they seem to just glide across the string without losing much speed. Of course it is important to note that this feeling is also influenced by the string you use and since I have recently run out of Henry’s yellow string and switched to Play’s white string this hasn’t been as noticeable, hence I employ people to test what string works for them as well.

The cups have a slightly bigger diameter than most other diabolos in this category. They do not have shallow cups even for an ogre with massive hands like me and as mentioned previously they have a wide axle so throwing into high with a variety of grips is possible. Personally I find that the material used works really well for my grip (flicking using the outer rim with my right hand) and so I raise no complaints but it should be noted to anyone interested that there is no pronounced lip like with finesse diabolos. I also know that some people prefer when the inside of the cup is perfectly smooth and that is the case here, there is no writing or other indentations on the inside that may be distracting or influence your grip.

At the beginning I was worried about the durability, especially after reading the review Wis posted. However, I was told that the diabolos I had have been altered since his review and I have used these diabolos on concrete for both vertax and high diabolo where they have fallen from a variety of heights and at different angles and nothing has gone wrong with them so far. Perhaps I may be lucky but in general I think this shouldn’t be a cause for concern to most people. Many players have different habits so mileage may vary, I know for example that Damian has shredded through countless Sundia EVO axles while I only managed to miraculously bend one with my old EVO G1s presumably because I tightened it too hard and decided to play on a concrete surface, everyone’s story is different. I am more concerned though with their sharp shape and inflexible material, it is one of the reasons that they are not my preferred diabolos for high practice. Many times they have fallen on my hands and either cut my forearm or just caused a great deal of pain. That isn’t to say other diabolos don’t do this, I just found myself being a bit more careful with these than others. They are also rather loud when correcting due to their material, presumably because of the hard transparent plastic. This is the same material that the upcoming Hyperspin Zero diabolos feature and at the EJC many jokes were made on account of the ear piercing ring that tapping them produced. These diabolos are not as bad but they are certainly louder than comparable ones, although a quick remedy for this is to wear earphones and ignore complaints from roommates/neighbours/parents/anyone who can’t appreciate the beautiful art for that is diabolo.

In conclusion I have really enjoyed using these diabolos. There has definitely been more thought put into them than just a unique aesthetic and I am sure that it will win a lot of people over on that basis alone. I haven’t been able to check whether the washers are metal or plastic or carbon fibre, if they are metal (as I suspect) then I would be curious to test the effect of lighter washers on the performance. I find it really promising that these days diabolos are measured by what is wrong with them (similar to the smartphone industry) because so many manufacturers get so many things right that they are pointless to mention. I realise that due to me being a numbers player my insight towards 1 and 2 diabolo performance may not be as in depth as someone else’s although I believe I have covered most of the important use cases and I recommend reading the review by Wis as well. If there are any specific questions that spring to mind then I invite anyone to ask it and I will be happy to answer.

3
Videos / Re: Thread for diabolo random-videos
« on: May 29, 2018, 11:14:01 PM »
I can't think of any Wis although looks like perhaps that video is too big for its boots, judging by the comments on it  ;)

4
General / Re: 3D help!
« on: February 27, 2018, 11:03:53 PM »
Quote
Can I get enough speed by doing speed wraps every third orbit or should I do continuous speed pulls

At this point you shouldn't be considering speed pulls at all, all they will do is distract you from the shuffle. Learn the shuffle consistently for many many catches and only then will speeding the diabolos up make a difference. The hover is really useful here because I understand that with the wrap start you may not be able to get enough speed (as well as consistency in the opening) but the hover will solve this problem instantly

Quote
How do I 'hover' the third in?
If I were in your place I'd try wrapping the 3rd diabolo like a lot of people do with the 4 diabolo hover. Hold the diabolo in your hand and make the wrap and don't release the diabolo immediately. Rather, hold it in the wrap and keep the shuffle with 2 going to get used to feeling like the extra weight your right hand has to deal with, and after that you should release the 3rd diabolo. The basic feeling is that you push down with the 3rd diabolo at the time you push up with the other hand to lift the second diabolo up in the mini shuffle. You pull the diabolo in the hover until t one of the diabolos in the hover is at its peak height and then lower your stick to catch it. Hopefully these instructions are clear however even without them it's something you will develop soon enough, just keep at it and stay calm. Seriously, stay calm, the hover is just as slow as the 2D shuffle would usually be, you've just got another one 'stuck' to one of your sticks. Good luck!  :)

5
General / A discussion on sharing progress
« on: February 15, 2018, 12:18:21 AM »
https://instagram.com/p/BfMXtD8hDkV/

The following post is dedicated to my grandfather, who sadly passed away earlier today. His passing urged me to reflect upon many decisions I have made, not the choices I made that resulted in something bad but rather the opportunities I failed to seize when it was truly needed, the good moments I never had rather than the bad ones that I did experience.

For an extended period of time now I have been communicating with many daiboloists and sharing my progress with 5 diabolos and other aspects of diabolo, both online and in person during conventions. Notably, I have been talking to Guillaume and as with many other diaboloists we discussed the topic of sharing our progress and the impact it has on the worldwide community. As with everything in life it would be nice to be the first at something, to take ownership over something, especially after you have worked incredibly hard at it. With diabolo we have come to do this by working in private and releasing videos of our progress on the internet. These pristine videos have many unique tricks executed to perfection, all spliced together in a video file which has a clear date of upload, that way we know when somebody is the first to discover something new in the world of diabolo.

Unfortunately, while here in the west diabolo is often a fun hobby that a select few take up as a full-time job, the diabolo community in Asia is completely different. I dot mean to say that people do not take diabolo to be something enjoyable (if it wasn't fun nobody would bloody do it!) however the many competitions going on in Asia often have a negative side effect that I believe is overlooked, people hide knowledge from each other in order to outperform their peers. In theory this can be constructive, people working harder and harder to be better than one another, yet it is often overshadowed by a certain form of isolation and a lack of creativity.

"Sharing videos is incredibly beneficial to the community as a whole." This statement is true for most tricks, however 5 diabolos is not just another diabolo trick. Mastering 5 diabolos has been a dream of mine for many, many years. I record every session I practice this 'trick' and I've have amassed over 6TB of data over the years. To this day I have been very secretive about my progress, this is because I wanted to showcase 5 diabolos only once I have mastered it, I wanted to take full 'ownership' of it. I didn't want to release a forgettable diabolo video, I wanted to shock the world with something completely new, I was going to give it my all or nothing at all. Unfortunately real life got in the way and something that I could have learned from start to finish in a matter of weeks/months has turned into a 4 year ongoing project of self-improvement. While it would be tempting to say that the fault lies just in things getting in the way, it would also be a lie. A large part of why I hadn't learned this skill long ago was been the fact that nobody has done anything like this before, or so it seemed back pre-2016.

Before 2016 the landscape was completely unrecognisable, nobody dared to be stupid enough to spend such a large part of their life on something that seemed, quite frankly, impossible. The idea that an indivicual could consistently start 5 diabolos on their own seemed ludicrous. Then on January 5th 2016 the diabolo world, and particularly my world, got turned upside down. Pen Zen (彭湛) set the bar so high you'd need binoculars just to see it. Not only did he get over 50 catches of 5 diabolos, he did so unassisted! Immediately I thought to myself that had I seen that video a couple months earlier I would have been able to match it or even beat it. This was the first time I really found out how much help a single video can give. From one video I could extract how long my string should be, how big the shuffle could be, how high my arms should be, how fast my hands need to move, how fast diabolos need to be spinning etc... I felt somewhat fooled and that only drove me to even more secrecy. I was working on the hover at the time (as I have been for the past 4 years apart from a small break at the start of 2016 where I tried the hover-stall start) and I had to make sure that nobody knew about it. I thought to myself that had Pen ever found out he would have an upper hand on me and I didn't want that to happen. My own ego crippled me, instead of being an honest person and working with him for the betterment of the both of us as well as the community I found myself working against him. This is how I feel many competitions in Asia make people feel (and if this is not the case then please correct me as I may be misunderstanding a lot) and it is why I am so resentful towards the idea of them.

Not to worry however because in no time Terry (as I am informed 廖旺旺 likes to be named) started appearing. It started off with a couple of videos here and there of a young diaboloist doing tricks with 4, then he started uploading pictures of the 5D hover and now he is zipping away doing 5 diabolos and tricks with it like it's nobody's business. This is another person I saw as an opponent and another person I thought I had to hide my progress from. It turns out that he had a similar idea, which is why even to this day he has not uploaded a single clip of himself running the 5D hover. It's only in retrospect that I realise how damaging that was to us and the diabolo community as a whole. As it stands I am walking blindfolded in a dark room looking for a black cat that I KNOW for certain is there but have no idea how to find. I have no idea if my progress with the hover is fast or slow, whether I need to practice the hover more or whether I should practice the opening, whether I should open into 5 or whether I should throw 1 or 2 higher and then try opening (etc...).

It's only today that I finally realise I need to grow a backbone, a pair of testes and make my contribution, because this trick is not for me to own, this is something everyone should be able to enjoy and I would never wish on anyone to feel the pressure and isolation that I felt due to my own self-inflated ego and selfish tendencies. As mentioned before I have been spending a bit of time recently talking to Guilaume, sending each other attempts and analysing every aspect of what may or may not be going wrong. Not only did I find that thanks to our conversations he was able to progress to a level in weeks/months that took me years but I also found that I was enjoying the process of sharing and am improving from our discussions to this very day. As he progressed I will admit to having a certain small feeling of discomfort, a feeling that all my work is being undermined by someone else, that somebody is working off the back of years and years of hard work. This feeling subsided quicker and quicker each time he sent me a video to the point where it is completely overridden by the amazement of getting closer and closer to an incredibly difficult skill and the excitement of what the next step could be. I feel that the only next step it to make my contributions more frequent and make this situation more open, the only reason I felt that nagging feeling weas because nobody has any idea what I have managed to achieve! This is a simple answer yet I managed to closet it from myself for years. I no longer feel that I will fail myself if I do not become the best in the world at 5 diabolos, I will only fail if I let this become something unenjoyable, something that is destructive rather than constructive. I will only fail if I continue on this path of secrecy who's rewards is far outweighed by its damage. As a results I have attached a link to my contribution, one of my best all round attempts at running 5 diabolos on my own. I am in a position where if people take this and run with it and exceed my level then I will only be excited as it will give me an opportunity to learn something faster and with more enjoyment. I'll be helping not only myself but another person, and I think that's a really good thing.

6
Performances / Re: Diabolo performance : Trip in France - Gorges du Tarn
« on: January 27, 2018, 06:44:05 PM »
I'm lost for words (at least the ones that come to mind aren't exactly PG ;) ). Immediately I loved the aesthetics of the video, it's just beautiful, both thanks to the filming and the editing. I was reading a juggling thread once where jugglers were asking what happened to beautiful juggling videos since most videos nowadays seem to be filmed in gyms, squash courts or some other ugly buildings and then just spliced together (unfortunately I am very very guilty of this too) and one commentor pointed out 'Diabolo videos seem to always look really nice' and it was wuite heartwarming to think that some people view us in that way, this is a good example of such a video, I hope one day I'll be able to contribute such a video as well

I must also agree 2:29 was my favourite trick, although the 1:30-1:35 scene looks gorgeous!  :-D It comes to show how important lighting and camera settings are in video making

7
Tricks / Re: Juggling Games for Diabolos at Conventions
« on: September 22, 2017, 01:11:00 AM »
Sign me up! I remember creating 2 games with some friends at the BJC in 2013 that I'd love to see get more popular!

As a side note though, you mean cardboard right? Because I know 'karton' is cardboard in German but I can see how one might think it translates as cartoon ;) All I'm saying is that I've never been asked to throw my diabolo at a cartoon box  :-D

8
Performing / Re: Chalk/Rosin?
« on: August 29, 2017, 10:41:33 PM »
Yannoe there's a reason I refer to Pieter Slachmuylders as the god of the grip  ;) At the EJC 2016 in Almere he introduced me to using liquid chalk for long diabolo sessions and it worked like a charm. I'm used to using chalk from rock climbing so my hands have tough skin anyway but I imagine if you are just beginning you should be prepared to get some blisters. Either way like I said it's a brilliant solution, the liquid just sticks to your hands and doesn't even transfer to the stick if you let it dry

9
Tricks / Re: tricks that i hate...
« on: June 04, 2017, 11:23:35 AM »
Quote
Would there be any interest in a serious write-up of my thoughts on integrals and how to best learn to combo with them? I'd be more than willing to put all those ideas into writing.

Yeah go on then, maybe after all these years I'll finally learn one  ;)


Quote
I hate big suns. seriously
I REALLY HATE BIG SUNS !!!

I'm with you man, I feel I'm not being flexible enough or something

10
Ronnie, I am glad to see you asked Guillaume about that :)

Did you make any decision?

Well so far I have decided that I am going to study Mathematics at Imperial College London but a part of me is really tempted to go to Malaysia or Taiwan after that and develop some of my diabolo ideas, even if it's just for a year or two

11
I asked the one and only Guillaume something along these lines a month or so ago and this is what he told me:

Quote
Well circus schools are only tools so your question is like asking me what good music instrument there are. It depends what sort of music you want to play.
Montreal and Kiev are known for their very high level of pure technique though artistically rather traditional.
Then in France a lot of schools are focusing on the artistic individuality. The Cnac and Fratellini are doing a good job. The Lido in Toulouse is probably the most qualified for pushing circus in an innovative manner. Even though sometimes criticized for a lack of technique.
Finally, Doch is in my opinion a good compromise. They encourage the innovation of disciplines and keep a rather high level of technique. I must mention that Jay Gilligan and Ben Richter, the two main juggling teachers in Doch are on top of their game dealing with juggling as an art form.

With your level in diabolo I would recommend you Doch, the Lido or another school in France such as Fratellini. The Lattet has the specificity to pay the student monthly. You can ask Nino Wasmer who is a diabolist in that school for more info.

It all depends on what you are interested in. If you like only technique for its sake I wouldn't necessarily recommend circus schools.

Another way, is to create your own teaching by taking workshops often a week long. Juggling workshops, theater workshop, dance, opera, mime, art performance. It is very efficient because you work directly on your needs (in circus schools, you will sometimes waste time or not like stuff) but the downside is that it is expensive and you need to be strongly independent and determined because it is not conventional.

A last word, to me the biggest points of schools are the space, that is an environment to train create try out, and the people around you who are a source of inspiration. The rest comes from you only.

Also when speaking to Diabolotino he told me that he loves being a diabolo coach in Malaysia. What took me aback was the fact that there are international schools of diabolo, meaning that if you can speak English you can teach people, you don't need to know Malay or Chinese. It's much more on the technical side (which I like) and you are closer to all of those crazy diabolo competitions however the drawback is that you are so far away from the EJC, FDC, BJC and other marvelous European conventions.

12
Gear / Re: Sundia Evo, worth upgrading?
« on: January 15, 2017, 04:16:26 PM »
Yes

13
General / Re: PLEASE DON'T REPLY TO OLD THREADS!
« on: December 11, 2016, 02:01:15 PM »
Quote
Just to let you know... I'm bookmarking this thread so I can reply to it in 2 years.  :P

Well played! The fact that it's been 4 years since this thread was started is just crazy  :o

14
Quote
At least a girl, at least a guy, at least 1 kid, at least 1 adult, and at least one person from each country that submitted.

But where do you put the line? Do we need an LGBTQI+ member to show that our community is open to those people? Do we need a race quota so we can have a token black/hispanic/white/asian guy/girl? Do we need a member from each of the major religions? These may seem arbitrary but in my eyes they are no more arbitrary than the ones you proposed.

I say equality of opportunity trumps equality of outcome, it doesn't matter who you are, all that matters is diabolo [}{]

15
Videos / Re: Thread for diabolo random-videos
« on: September 14, 2016, 10:29:08 PM »
Quote
Ben, you'll love this one

I would have checked more thoroughly if I were you Wis, Alistair posted that trick a couple days prior. It may not have the mini gen but I think it is cleaner:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BKTKhfJhChv

16
Gear / Re: Sundia Sun vs. Sun Rise & light kits
« on: September 14, 2016, 10:24:16 PM »
If you can afford it I would recommend the EVOs, if you want the light kit I guess you will want the G2c version:

http://diabolomoves.co.uk/diabolos/store/comersus_listItems.asp?IdCategory=102

If you click on the diabolo it sends you to the link where you can but the light kit for it.
The EVOs are definitely the better choice, suns are really heavy so adding a light kit would only make the problem worse, plus it's a pretty old design for a diabolo.

17
Videos / Re: Thread for diabolo random-videos
« on: June 03, 2016, 10:29:31 AM »
Unfortunately that link is unavailable for me Wis and won't be for a lot of people because to view it you have to be friends with him on Facebook and he has a private profile, so I will post the instagram link instead:

http://instagram.com/p/BGKJ7Ujg7ub/

18
Videos / Re: 4 Diabolos Low 84242
« on: May 09, 2016, 05:07:10 PM »
Quote
I remember Robin also did some sideswap like this in the Planet Diabolo Project, I think it was even more crazy.

Nice example of being in denial  :P , Robin's siteswap was 84242642whereas this kid had an extra 642 entrance, mind you though, those clips were filmed in 2011/12/13 whereas this is 3 years later, I know for certain he has done crazier things since then ;)

19
Videos / Re: Thread for diabolo random-videos
« on: May 01, 2016, 10:16:46 PM »
Here's a little combo, nothing too fancy but it's nice to know it maxes out Instagram's video length :P

https://instagram.com/p/BE4BlM6DSEm/

20
Videos / Re: High Dream - Diabolo Clip
« on: April 24, 2016, 12:12:49 AM »
Quote
Hey @Clément, I wanted to ask if you could also upload this to Juggling TV or Vimeo

He is already one step ahead of you Timo  ;)

https://vimeo.com/163233091

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 20
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2021, SimplePortal