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Messages - samuli

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61 Collaboration Video / Re: collaboration video 2017
« on: February 08, 2018, 05:57:24 PM »
Aaro Kontio's last yeears clip seems to be missing?

62 Collaboration Video / Re: collaboration video 2017
« on: February 07, 2018, 12:15:27 PM »
IS the list already sent out? WOuld be nice to know as I sent in few clips. What is the situation with 2017collab?

63 Collaboration Video / Re: collaboration video 2017
« on: January 13, 2018, 09:12:12 AM »
I sent few clips as well, I'll try to find time to send few more...

Videos / #tomofcircus #oneminutechallenge!
« on: January 11, 2018, 06:01:40 PM »
Rauli Katajavuori on #tomofcircus #oneminutechallenge! Take part this challenge by filming yourself doing something you can do for one minute and publish it with hashtags #tomofcircus #oneminutechallenge


We started this project called #tomofcircus and for the first trailers for the performance We made some videos with idea of doing it for one minute. Now We have been continuing with it and We invite everybody to join as doing something for one minute is fun and what is better way to have fun than to ave fun with others.


and here's the fb-page for the TOC-project with much more of these one minute videos:

Community & Events / Re: Diabolo Competitions - Preferred format
« on: December 16, 2017, 09:20:17 AM »
For me it seems that We are already mixing things up in this discussion. Contests are contests, in sports, people take part in contest to Win with the rules set for that division. like 100m dash, fastest runner wins. Great!. In high jump there's rule that you can only use the force of one leg to jump over the bar, even people would go much higher if it would be allowed to use both legs to jump. So in real life the best high jumper in the world is just best in terms of these rules. Highest jump from one leg, falling to the mattress.  If there would be no mattress to fall, the result would most likely to be different. So if Contest has clear rules We would get the best one out by the rules and divisions the contest has. If the rules of the contest are not clear the results would be more of an result of luck and chance and fortune.  I'd like to see diabolo juggling evolve as sport and as art-thing way. There's space and tacit need for all the ways We play diabolo and it is not away from either side that both happen. Good things comes even from flow art diabolo play and contest sporty diabolo play. No need to pick sides in this fight, because in reality there's no need to fight. 

Then the other issue which is  the aim of promoting the diabolo, I guess all of us we want to see new diabolo players with better skills and new ideas, if we dont promote diabolo no new players will join. Of cource more players means wider scale of ways to play. More the merrier, yes. I think contests can do good bit of promoting for the sprty side of diabolo juggling. There's definitely room for even more contests in different ways for different level players. I believe it would be good to have beginner level ladder contests at school yards just to get kids into diabolo. beginner battles as well as RBPAO-battle, National contests would be good like European contests as well. But if We really think promoting diabolo to build bigger diabolo community. We should remember that yoyo-community was built by toy company and the main purpose for them in building a community and have contests was to sell their toys (Yo-Yo's)  Similar thing is happening now with Kendama (main people promoting Kendama are companies that sell Kendamas) but on the other hand they are really building a community and culture on the same time. So I would be happy that companies the sell and make diabolos would do their part in promoting this toy they sell (diabolo). And if I think bit more about what is the difference with yoyo, kendama and diabolo, I think the main difference is from where these cultures have grown. Yoyo and Kendama have different backgrounds as well, but both have gone big because of the toy-company marketing, both have contests and both are marketed as a skill toy. Diabolo on the other hand is marketed as a juggling prop. And at least in Europe the diabolo 'culture' is part of the juggling scene. Diabolo in Europe isn't established itself as a skill toy like yoyo and kendama. In Asia it seems to have different history and different culture around it. Contests seem to be clear part of this culture they have there. It also seems that Asian toy companies who manufacture and sell diabolos also market this Diabolo toy as a skill toy instead as a silly and easy to learn juggling prop like European companies do. Oh I just rembered that in Europe jugglers take part in volley club contests and fightnightcombat. Good contests and The best team in Volley club is the best team in Volley club. Most likely the jugglers there are also pretty good jugglers, they can't claim that they are the best jugglers in the world but the can claim that they have the tittle for best team in Volley club for the year. Same goes with the best 3 club combat fighter. WJF contest works fine as well. If you check the 5ball routines, it is quite easy to say who wins by the set of rules WJF have. (You got to list 15 moves with 5 balls, have a one combo or break it down in smaller sequences. But in the end cleanest execution of the most difficult combinations will win the WJF-tittle. Fair enough?) 

Community & Events / Re: Diabolo Competitions - Preferred format
« on: December 10, 2017, 12:25:50 PM »
I'll join this discussion as We are trying to have similar discussion in Finland in sense that We all agree that We want to make Finnish National Diabolo Contest even better than it already is. Aaro already described the disciplines We have had at our contest since 2011.

As for Diabolo contest history in Finland We founded Finnish diabolo accosiation 19.12.2007 in Tampere with five people (Aaro Kontio, Marko Akkanen, Samuli Männistö (also known as Rauli Katajavuori), Olli Vuorinen and Jussi Jaakkosela. The associations main goal was to promote Diabolo juggling as sport and organize national contest yearly and for that We begin to think of a way that We could define the best diabolo juggler in Finland for real! (that you can't just be one trick pony but really be worth the tittle) So We thought that as for judges it is easier to compare similar things than 3D routine with vertax routine, so We decided to have divisions for all the ways you can play diabolo.

Finnish Diabolo association organized first national contest in march 2009. and dissiplines were following: 1. vertax genocide, 1min 2. 3D 3up piroutettes 3. numbers competition 4. 1D fixed freestyle 3min 5. 2D fixed freestyle 3mi 6. 3D fixed freestyle 2min 7. vertax 3min 8. 1D loop freestyle 2min 9. 2D loop freestyle 2min
On first year We didn't really have overall winner in sense of total score but in the end highest total score got the main trophy, and this is how We ended up having so called overall winner in Finnish national contests.

On 2010 contest We had 1. vertax genocides, 1min 2. 3D 3up piroutettes 3. numbers competition 4. 1D fixed freestyle 3min 5. 2D fixed freestyle 3min 6. 3D fixed freestyle 2min 7. vertax 3min 8. 1D loop freestyle 2min 9. 2D loop freestyle 2min 10. minigenocides, 1min 11. 1D bearing  freestyle 3min 12.  2D bearing  freestyle 3min and competitor chooses 7 that he/she will do and overall score of these 7 is the final score.
And as a after thought this would be quite nice with lot of players but for us as We didn't have too many people taking part it made possible to pick disciplines with less competition and get good overall score, so in the end We didn't continue with this route and for the years 2011 - 2017 We ended up having the Diabolo decathlon! With disciplines as follows: Big ones (winner gets 10 points): 1d freestyle 3min, 2d freestyle 3min, 3d freestyle 3min, Bearing freestyle 3min, Vertax freestyle 3min, Small ones (winner gets 5 points):  Monobolo freestyle 2min, Loop freestyle 2min, Most minigenocides 1min, Most vertax genocides 1min
Endurance (most diaboloes in high technique) 1min (but the contestant is allowed to continue as long as the run goes)
After everything is done, the score is calculated and overall winner chosen (this is done by spreadsheet that has been filled with all the results).

And for the past 2-3 years We have been arguing and talking about how to make the contest even better. I personally have been standing on a side of going even more to IYYF style contest type. And even for quite a long time I was on the idea of ditching the overall winner status totally, but as We have the really good challenge cup touring around Finland. It has felt wrong to kill this tradition so We kept going with the same way.

Now my suggestion for the new contest disciplines here in Finland is as follows.

Overall judging of Championship performance division and freestyles would follow IYYF-contest rules in a way that in Championship performance division cleanliness and performance is the main factor. In short freestyle divisions the scoring is for big, never before seen tricks and hardcore technical skill performance.

execution disciplines: (FIxed diabolo)
1. 1d vertax genocides  1min.
2. 1d mini-genocides 1 min.
3. Xd numbers
Counting just scores, scoring more than others is the main thing here. These would mainly aim for new official contest records. Claiming the title doing it best this year and the biggie would be making the new official Finnish National record. Maybe even the world record like Aaro did this year with endurance. 666 catches with 3D high and also the official Finnish record with 21 catches of 4D

Freestyle divisions: (freestyle 2min?)
4. Mb monobolo (any amount of monbolos with fixed or  bearing)
5. Loopdiabolo (any amount of monbolos with fixed or  bearing)
6. 1d (fixed or  bearing)
7. 2d (fixed  or  bearing)
8. 3d (fixed  or  bearing)
9. vertax freestyle((any amount of monobolos with fixed or  bearing)
On the freestyle divisions the scoring is for big, never before seen tricks and hardcore technical performance.

Championship performance division (7min)
Any amount of diabolos, monobolos, sticks strings style of play is allowed, cleanliness and performance is the main factor. and the 'challenge cup' -trophy would be for winner of this division. but freestyle division winners would be able to use the title winner of ??? division year??

As for now We have the problem with our Finnish national contest that all people just go for the Overall win and even that you would win let's say 2D division, and be the best in Finland with 2D play, it doesn't matter. I believe that change of the rules could bring more players to the game and you could just play your favorite style and rule it if you can. (like yoyo players do) Also even if you wish to Win the main tittle at Championship performance division you don't need to take part in any other divisions if you don't want to.

I hope We can take this road for the our tenth annual Finnish National Diabolo Contest. Then We'll see how it goes and can make adjustments for future. I would love to see IDA, or some other world wide organization coming up and doing the same the IYYF did for Yoyo. Clear set of divisions, clear set of rules for competition with seeding procedure for the World Contest. Meaning that whatever contest and battle is fine but to get seeded to European or World or any big contest you need to pass though smaller contests with the same rule set. Other types are fine but they are kind of useless for getting in to World event. This works really well with YoYo, and I really like the idea making this happen with diabolo too.

MOYO STAGE has the following disciplines in diabolo contest- 1D, 2D, 3D, VD, AD(All you can do), AWD(woman)  and I if I am not wrong, they use judging similar to IYYF-rules.

4- Diabolo Battles. One on one competitions, no equiment/plane/number of diabolos limitations. This can be single rounds or a complete elimination branch where, for example 16 players compete one on one until there is a champion.

I can say that I don't really think battle format would serve a good foundation for real contest. Battles can be fun and good for selling products purposes but to determine the best diabolo player or diabolo performance. No.
Bangers and new flashy **** will win, regardless of the actual difficulty level and also being a good lad with judges or having a name already in community makes you a better player automatically.

6- System of evaluations:
- very specified, like with a click system as used by the FDC, see as an example the yoyo rules where judges have clickers on her hands to count things all the time during the performances (

Definitely the IYYF way.. Works super well and is super fair for all contestants, if you play by the rule book and make your contest routine following how to make points by the rules also lessen the possibility of getting carried away by one combo, and make it a lot easier for the judges to remember their initial reactions. The less judges need to talk with each other about the results, the better. (Quite a Finnish thing to say...) Following Aaro here.

+Commenting Aaros words:
2. While i have enjoyed the Finnish competitions for the past years, i think this kind of format has no future. Audience does not care about many different categories. Having categories makes the competition repetitive as many contestants go on stage doing almost the same tricks.  Mixing the categories inside the event would make it confusing for the judges.
- Requires broad technical skills concerning diabolo (and has included many that are arguably not even diabolo *con). The title cannot be won by a one trick pony.

- The format is really slow, physically hard and time consuming. This year we had 6 competitors and it took 7 hours. There was no audience, and if there had been, they would have probably left after few hours. It is purely about competition with zero crowd pleasing aspects.
- Monobolo and loop freestyles are irrelevant, but you need to take part in them to have a chance in the overall contest. This year the monobolo was won by contestant who improvised and used borrowed equipment.

Audience does not care about many different categories. - Aaro. When We had the contest in Joensuu  and having the Joensuu market square stage in July for 3 days, We have got over 5000 people watching the contest every year between 2012-2016. Audinece have loved the contest and as this year as We couldn't make the event happen in Joensuu people where asking Where the contest is? As it has been one of main events during the summer in Joensuu. So I would say that people have really liked the contest as it has been. They have learnt the names of different contestants, how they play. kind of if betting would be legal in Finland I'm sure there would be betting going on for players in all the disciplines. This year We had the contest in village of 800 people on a day with funeral and market... and I really didn't use much time on advertising the event. (for many reasons) So the audience participation is not because the disciplines We have. These people of Eräjärvi wouldn't have come even if We had promised to give free buckets on entrance. (Free buckets, is really a thing in Finland. Just google it!) And if We change the divisions and rules you don't need to do loop or monobolo or numbers contest to try to win the Championship performance division.

This year the monobolo was won by contestant who improvised and used borrowed equipment. -Aaro / For me this is no proble when the player is so good on the prop that He doesn't need to practice before the contest to win it. It is not his fault, it is just lack of skill from the other contestants. We need to do better to win, or at least I need to and I want to do better. The thing I didn't win is nobody else problem than mine. I sipmly wasn't good enough. It is not Joona's fault that he won. Joona won because he was better on the contest than any other of us taking part the contest.

Even that competitive yoyoing is not all that there is in yoyoing and some of my favourite players don't really do well in yoyo-contest, as they do stuff that the rules don't really let score much, I really enjoy and like how IYYF and Yoyo community have done this and I would like to see Diabolo follow how Yoyo community have done this. If you check videos of the winners of all the WYYC2017 divisions, all the performances are really good and if you check the players who came second or third you'll see that there's no wild judging but the winner truly is a winner. Others aren't bad either and contests are tight, this is why We need good organized system to judge and run these contests, batlling is isn't the way to the peace. And also if We think spintops, that is one division in at EYYC and WYYC, maybe other contests a well. 2010 most of this spintop stuff was, really bad and shaky, but as the time has passed. The stuff that is executed at the spintop division is getting really good. This is also one reason I would really emphasize loop and monobolo divisions to happen in Diabolo contests. I believe this is also a way to make those marginal ways of playing diabolo more popular and make the level go higher in general.



Videos / Re: Finnish National Diabolo Contest 2017 2.12.2017
« on: December 08, 2017, 04:04:21 PM »
Added more freestyles, too bad that We lack all the numbers contest, miniG's and vertax genocide videos and even some freestyles. Next time We do it better! Next year it will be the time for tenth annual Finnish national diabolo contest. Think of that!


Tricks / Re: Diabolo Records
« on: December 08, 2017, 11:12:44 AM »
I was one of the people with clickers following Aaro's record run. Other people with clickers were Veli-Pekko Häkli, Joona Muistola and Olli Vainionpää... Aaro did massive 180 degree turn while going for the number of the beasts. Took a long while but finally Aaro managed to drop at 666 catches with 3D high. We had few click differencies ( but all together the average score counted 666)

So I saw this live and it is real. We had some issues with filming. Also I lack most of my 1D freestyle. :(



Finnish Diabolo Convention / Re: DIABOLOTHON 2017 (FDC-festival games)
« on: November 24, 2017, 08:08:19 PM »
Onni didn't win at Paris festival, even that he was the real winner for me. Luckily he won the Diabolothon.

And Wis, You said that 'Wis is for the people, and so is' so that made me ask how the things shown on video wouldm't make on the front page with the filming quality this video has?

And yes, it is nice to have this FDC diabolothon video on front page. I think it deserves it.

Finnish Diabolo Convention / Re: DIABOLOTHON 2017 (FDC-festival games)
« on: November 23, 2017, 04:11:48 PM »
So happy faces, silly things and diabolofestivals are not for people, Wis?

Finnish Diabolo Convention / Re: DIABOLOTHON 2017 (FDC-festival games)
« on: November 23, 2017, 02:28:09 PM »
worth front page I think,

This is something you don't normaly do but includes diabolo and sports in a great and fun way. Good fun sport. Could fir juggling games even on juggling festivals.



Finnish Diabolo Convention / DIABOLOTHON 2017 (FDC-festival games)
« on: November 16, 2017, 07:34:30 PM »

Second video from FDC2017. This is what We do every year at the FDC on Sunday. The best and most awesome juggling games ever...

Huge thank to Raja-tuotanto for filming this!

Videos / Re: KITA KAMAKURA by Guillaume
« on: November 14, 2017, 02:06:10 PM »
I believe there's video somewhere with Luke Burrage and 3 diabolos and ring played in a similar style.

Finnish Diabolo Convention / Re: FDC2017 videos
« on: November 06, 2017, 06:50:47 PM »
No front page, Wis?

Practice / Re: are those votws happening? well one wannabe votw-vudeo here
« on: November 06, 2017, 06:30:40 PM »
No, just that I haven't seen votw in loooong time.


Finnish Diabolo Convention / FDC2017 videos
« on: November 05, 2017, 06:01:47 PM »
Here's the first video of FDC2017 and We think you should watch this on full screen mode.

Here's some epic action from FDC2017.

#fdc2018 #thisisfdc #fdc2017 #supiainen #diabolo #raja

Videos / Re: Thread for diabolo random-videos
« on: November 04, 2017, 09:56:20 AM »
Today I did join the club of using more sets of sticks and strings.

Community & Events / Re: International Diabolo Hub
« on: October 27, 2017, 07:18:43 AM »
here's thing about Finnish nationals. Finnish national diabolo contest has been organized every year since 2009 and now 2017 We have the contest for the ninth time.  2017 contest will happen at Eräjärvi (same place where FDC-festival happens) 1.-3.12.2017 With yoyo and Kendama national contest. Feel free to join us then.

Here's the fb-event:[%7B%22surface%22%3A%22page%22%2C%22mechanism%22%3A%22main_list%22%2C%22extra_data%22%3A%22%7B%5C%22page_id%5C%22%3A315271757243%2C%5C%22tour_id%5C%22%3Anull%7D%22%7D]%2C%22has_source%22%3Atrue%7D

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