Author Topic: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland  (Read 13530 times)

Timaeschulze

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Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« on: August 03, 2014, 06:02:16 PM »
This is my Open Stage at the European Juggling Convention 2014 in Millstreet, Ireland  :)

I want to create a certain vibe with this act, not the usual entertaining way of performing for classical circus. I prefer the understatement without the big drama. Therefore, I dressed up black, chose a darker and more ambient light and picked this downfeel yet uplifting piece of eletronic music by "The Acid". The track is called "Veda" and it's out of their debut album "Liminal". It is important for me to play as smooth and clean as I can and not as technically hard as possible. Of course there is some technical stuff in this routine as the Body Orbits or the Double Suicide but I tried to put the focus on my own creations like the juggling and balance combinations, the armroll stickrelease or the final 1 diabolo trick.
Because of the very great light on stage, the drops hurt a little more but I was super nervous before the show, not only beause of Victor Kee and Donald Grant sitting in the front row  :embarassed:

This was my first ever solo performance and I am glad, that I had the opportunity to play for such an amazing audience.

If you have anything to criticize, feel free to write it down. I really hope you can get something out of this little act!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maeiWGTkH1A


Thanks to Flo and Scrat for filming!
Thanks to everyone who helped me creating it!
Thanks to Pola and Anna for organising the Open Stages at this years EJC and for having a slot for me!

Funty

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2014, 12:14:21 AM »
That is a really nice piece thank you!

Also the walking trick at the beginning was brilliant

Graham Milligan

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2014, 12:43:04 AM »
Loved it.
Looks even better from this angle as i was at the side when i saw it live. Beautiful stuff, very relaxed style!
Some Craic!

Not Skilled Yet

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2014, 03:17:30 AM »
nice
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Timaeschulze

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2014, 04:10:46 PM »
Thank you very much for the kind words everyone! I spoke to different people at the EJC about it already so I got some great feedback to work with, but I think it is always better to write things down.

As I hopefully made clear above, this is a work in progress version of my act. I have never had the energy or the will to craft a solo routine before that satisfies me to at least 90 percent I would say.
After all these years being in the juggling community I have seen a lot of beautiful stuff, met and appreciated so many great people - jugglers and diabolists - from all over the world. I guess that's why my expectations on acts in general are very high. Obviously the demand on myself aswell, because I want to share something big with the scene like so many others did before. But I never had the feeling to do so and to perform something on stage which is half-cooked is not working for me either.
At least I thought so until I visited the EJC this year where I questioned everything said above. I have never been to circus school so I never had the time and the free mind to fully concentrate on juggling. It does not get easier with life going on aswell. When I will never risk a try, playing the routine as best as I can, I will never have a comparison and something to work on in the future. You only learn how to move on stage if you actually are on stage and not only dreaming about it in the head. I already have collected a few ideas during the year, but I had no music, no developments and so on. Only a few combos and moves I thought will look good on stage. So I sat down for four days during the festival and tried to put everything together as authentic as possible. Most of the stuff is the stuff I am training for quite some time now, so the rehearsal time of the combos itself was not the big problem.
Playing an open stage offered me the motivation I needed and I am very happy I did it. Having a convention audience isn't the worsed thing either :P

I hope some more people will express their feelings and thoughts about this, I am really curious :)

Graham Milligan

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2014, 01:40:06 AM »
Makes perfect sense to me! Improvements are always possible and they can only be discovered through dissatisfaction with what you've got. Every time i have performed i've wanted to make my next performance even better, and the only way you can do that is by getting up there and doing it all over again. Every second on stage is a learning experience. No matter how many people there are, you will find out how to work the audience and discover what people like to see and what they dont like.

Now that you've done a solo performance and got footage of it you can use it as a launch pad to improve the routine and yourself as a character on stage.
Some Craic!

Diabolo88

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2014, 12:19:25 PM »
Act should've been twice as long that's your criticism right there. ;)

But to nitpick/try to be helpful...would've wanted to see more 2D specifically and maybe more changes in elevation (some high/big tricks even if they were to be easy). Great finisher trick.



Edit: to add more criticism then after a rewatch...would want a lot more movement/coverage of the stage in a thought out aesthetically pleasing manner (the pacing "victory lap" at 4:00 was a little confusing and made my mind break off from the viewing).

In response to Arjan below Void said a lot really well. My views not sure exactly what part is being referenced but seen many own tricks/combos be used by people I didn't know (after they've learnt from someone I met at a convention oblivious to where it came from). It's pretty nice to be a part of the heritage of diabolo so to speak and for it to be passed on through a trick chain cool with that and happy to see it even if anonynmously. Same feeling of selfsatisfaction if it's something originally created but based on old ideas. The whole idea of the forum is based on SHARING no?

Have also seen one guy (no name mentioned) take entire combos 100% created by me, stick them in an edited video on here and claim them as his own (after teaching them directly to him during a convention and spending a lot of time doing so). While the forum praised it I was actually kinda bummed...a very different matter to sit down and edit and watch something that is not "yours" over and over to still go ahead and put "claim" on it without credits when you know exactly where it's from.

In an act like this though it's live and in the moment so it's like a middle ground imho. Audience will in many cases not think twice who created the trick. Us watching it through here is not the same thing, won't give the same feeling or atmosphere, will inevitably be viewed differently. The expression isn't in the tricks alone but in the music, the movement, the clothes and more subtle connections to the audience. The duicide for instance seen from Tino but it just had a different feel to it being done slower...didn't even think about it until afterwards. In short if performer is happy and audience is happy no complaint. It's way more "then and there" than something edited. 




 

The Void

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2014, 02:46:04 PM »
Loved the walking trick, and the head-placement-drop-trap-flick-to-spin one too.
First performance? Good job!
The 'atmosphere' you were going for, for me, held during the 1 diabolo section, but then it seemed to switch to a "woo! Tricks!"-vibe during the 2D. Not sure if that was what you were going for...
Cheers!
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Arjan

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2014, 04:48:41 PM »
My ego at first said this doesn't deserve a reply, I was pissed at you personally, Tim. I was pissed to see maybe 10% complete original material. Some of the 90% I consider it being "mine". Then the Void commented and stated he liked "The walk", I have to respond to this and openly share my opinions and feelings. Now I'm pissed AND confused and asking many questions. So I will focus on myself for now, and the questions that raised within me;

Why someone has the guts to blatantly take unique single trick and use it?
What makes me think a trick belongs to me, when in fact it is done by someone else?
What makes a performance "put together as authentic as possible"?
Does original material exist in diabolo and what would be the definition of that?
How does my look on things relates with my current passive attitude towards creating and performing?
Is putting music to (diabolo) juggling an act? Or the other way around? Is it worthwhile doing or seeing?
Why do I have certain expectations?

These are somewhat "ridiculous questions", going on in the mind of a madman one could say. But by expressing them I hope to contribute to this topic and the scene in general. And usually the more I'm looking for answers on questions, outside myself (i.e. through in this case other people, a forum), the less I will find answers. The answers on questions are already within me. I just have to find myself really, is my experience.

To respond to your question constructively, I may be a tough crowd and difficult to impress, but seeing this made me want to yell at you and never speak again. Because I expected more from you, I think you have sooo much creative skill and material, this really disappointed me. I hope as a friend, the next time I will see you perform you will have developed this work in progress more, honestly, with more you and less "others" if that makes any sense.

The reality is it is you on stage, not me. And people seemed to enjoy it. Don't please them, don't please me, please yourself. Who are you, and if you want to continue to express yourself through diabolo, please do so, for yourself and others. Cause it does matter, even if it's not perfect in your opinion, don't consider mine, it is good enough. Thank you.

The Void

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2014, 06:09:17 PM »
Excuse my ignorance and/or lack of memory, Arjan. I've seen so much, and forgotten most of it at least once...

The following comments are general, not specific:

Performance is an entirely different matter to "learning tricks". People who have done the latter, but not the former, when doing their first performance, might seek "easy choices", as they lack the experience of performing. I've been guilty of this. But maybe when continuing down the performance road, they will come to realise that easy choices may well not be the best ones.
Quote
Why someone has the guts to blatantly take unique single trick and use it?
This is something I have seen a lot. Indeed, I've several times seen people do tricks in performance that I considered "mine". As soon as you show a trick to someone (even if only in a quiet practice space), that trick is now "out there". It might get re-shown again with a comment like "oh, I saw Void do something like that one, but he did....", and then the next person along the chain may say "oh yeah, someone showed me this"... and suddenly it's gone from "Void's trick" to "someone's trick" to "a trick". I would guess that in many cases, (sadly) people do not even consider whether a trick is part of someone's signature routine, and think that if they can learn it, they can perform it. And to say that they "can" is not to say that they "should", but that's another argument.
Quote
What makes me think a trick belongs to me, when in fact it is done by someone else?
Discovery or invention will inevitably give the inventor a sense of possession. But how does one "own" a trick, unless you can copyright an aspect of performance? We jugglers don't have spare change for lawyers, and it would no doubt take one to enforce a claim. Perhaps the best "real world" way of staking a claim is to keep your signature moves hidden until you are ready to show them in performance/video. Neither easy to execute nor guaranteed in success, sadly.
Quote
Does original material exist in diabolo and what would be the definition of that?
Cripes. well, the easy answer would be "Yes - something that no-one has done before!" But how does one know that something's not been done before? I'd never seen anyone grind a diabolo on the nose of a carnival mask before I saw Guy do it, but do I *know* that no-one has done it before? No. I think that in many cases, the essence of originality can be in the presentation of the "trick", rather than in the trick itself. In this case, a grind has clearly been done before, but in that way/style/presentation? Probably not. It could be the degree of originality which will be judged as acceptable or not.
Quote
Is putting music to (diabolo) juggling an act? Or the other way around? Is it worthwhile doing or seeing?
For the first one, my instinct is no (but why do I think that? hmmm.) But for the 2nd... I've done that (with clubs), and think yes. As for the third.... that's incredibly subjective!

Be yourself. (And the best version of yourself that you can be.) Let your conscience be your guide.

All of the above is offered up for consideration, and is not intended as censure.
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samuli

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2014, 08:10:01 PM »
<3 Void.
www.fdc2016.org /www.supiainen.com

Not Skilled Yet

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2014, 08:12:04 PM »
I guess the problem with "original trick" is that when you do something that you like, it's likely that you would think of it as "yours", even if you give it out to the public, and it makes you uncomfortable seeing people do it, so you wouldn't want other people to do it. The only way you'd do that is if you make something that's either really hard or confusing (2d integrals, weird 3d tricks with bearings, 5 diabolo 360) or involves some sort of unique physical feature (Jan's hair tricks). But some things, while new, don't have a high entrance barrier to learning. One trick that everyone "stole" was Joona's "helicopter integral" that he did 4 years ago in this video at 2:03. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtC7cNMrVko
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von_Ungern_Sternberg

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2014, 09:03:21 PM »
First for the copy subject as it became the main subject of the topic.

I got annoyed seeing the "walk" trick from Arjan at beginning and the diabolo turning 360° from Guillaume at 1:01. We saw the act of Guillaume together at the gala of the Berlin convention were he did this trick. 2 month later you do exactly the same trick on stage. I don't think it should be done.

Usually I m not annoyed by somebody performing a trick from somebody else. In this case it did, because you copied two very personal findings. They are not a variation of a trick. To me they are very personal findings. Plus you copy pasted those tricks without adding anything diabolo wise, neither movement or character wise to the way you performed those tricks. I think this is why it felt copy paste.

For the rest of the trick I did not care so much. I saw that some where yours, some not, and others I did not know. But those tricks are not so unique and personal creations as the two mentioned above.

Now for the rest of the routine:

For the positive points:

- You do hard tricks on stage in a quite clean way. Most of the tricks are also nice to watch for a nice audience. So good job for that.
- You choose a clear artistic way that has a cohesion ( music, "character", lights...) Nice!

For the points to work on:

- You should make clear choices where you move on stage. For now it seemed random and not fixed.
- When you drop, I would advice to keep the calmness you have in the rest of the act.
- If you drop, I would not try the trick again, because for me it dose not go with this "certain vibe" you write of, and goes more in "the direction of the usual entertaining way of performing for classical circus" you speak of.
- Your act is only diabolo based. There is no strong theatrical, movement or concept research in it. There for I want to see unique diabolo. In other acts, where there is not only the diabolo, I m perfectly fine if 100% of the diabolo material is standard well know tricks. As long as there is something else that makes the performance interesting

If we put the copy past tricks aside, I liked the act. As you mentioned it is not finished. Looking forward to see it live when you have worked on it.

Jan

Graham Milligan

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2014, 12:18:00 AM »
are you guys really getting annoyed over which tricks belong to who? Just because someone invented a trick doesn't mean it belongs to them and only they can perform it and surely the whole point of this site and the releasing of videos is to SHARE your tricks, let EVERYONE have a go at trying them to see where they can take them!

no one would be able to make any combos or routines if everyone got along this selfishly.

Do you really think that all your tricks are personally yours? A high throw, Chinese acceleration, a suicide, a genocide.. are these all not technically tricks that everyone just takes for granted. How many times have you seen the Elevator being used in a routine?

And i tell you what. i bet you dont see Steve Mills complaining that everyone who can juggle 3 balls stole his trick.

Congratulations again on your amazing performance Tim, i look forward to seeing you perform again one day!
G
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tomangleberger

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2014, 01:08:39 AM »
I don't really want to comment on the originality thing, I've been away from diabolo for too long to know what's public domain and what isn't.

But I was impressed when you nailed the double suicide, landing a trick like that in a performance -- especially with juggling royalty in the audience -- is a real feat.

von_Ungern_Sternberg

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2014, 09:49:37 AM »
surely the whole point of this site and the releasing of videos is to SHARE your tricks, let EVERYONE have a go at trying them to see where they can take them!

As I explained in my last message, if the person takes the trick to do something new. I think it is great! It can be in the way he performs it, in the way he moves with it... or a new diabolo evolution, but for me he has to bring his own input before performing it one stage. I don't say it s forbidden to copy something personal one stage. I say that I don't like to see it, and I think it should not be done.

You have this in a lot of art fields, that copy rights are almost don't existent, but it is not well seen by the community to copy paste personal findings.


Do you really think that all your tricks are personally yours? A high throw, Chinese acceleration, a suicide, a genocide.. are these all not technically tricks that everyone just takes for granted. How many times have you seen the Elevator being used in a routine?


Of course not. I m aware that a lot of the tricks are part of a diabolo vocabulary that every body uses. I never said that a diabolo player should re invent diabolo before going on stage.
As I explained in my last message, for the other tricks I didn't care to see copied ones or not. Because they are less personal creation to me. They are variation of something that already exists. For me, finding that you can turn you sticks in a little different way in a genocide is less a personal finding than to find that your diabolo can turn 360 ° while bouncing it. The one is a variation of a mainstream trick. The other is something really new. This is why I m fine with some tricks being copied, and I get annoyed by seeing other copy pasted on stage.

Jan

Timaeschulze

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2014, 10:47:57 AM »
Firstly I want to thank everyone who left suggestions for improvement! This is the fact why I uploaded it in the first place, not to impress somebody with the tricks I do but to show it to the diabolo scene. There were not that many diabolists in Ireland this year, which was kind of sad in my opinion. So here is the video for everyone to see and to form an opinion obviously. For me it is very helpful to hear criticism from people who have a lot more expert knowledge on how to perform, on how to move on stage and so on. It is also great to hear what kind of trick and combo you liked. This helps me a lot to take it further. So thanks again!



Lastly some words from me about the upcoming discussion about originality and stealing tricks.

Yes the walking trick is copied to 100 percent from Arjan's video he made a few years ago "Made in Taiwan". I really enjoyed the simple concept behind it, how fresh it is because it goes away from the diabolo-is-in-the-string thinking. I wanted to make a soft intro and I felt that this move will look good and will fit into the mood. I was far away from thinking that this could offend you that much Arjan, really. I had a blast meeting you at the last year's EJCs, it was a pleasure jamming with you and having all these nice chats about this and that (I remember the idea of having handstanding ovations instead of simple standing ovations because people seem to stand up for nearly everything now but this is another topic)
In retrospective, I should not have played it, I even have a nice variation of the walking concept but it is not save enough to do it on stage, so I went for yours.

But I think that giving and taking and being inspired by something and someone is the biggest part of the scene in general. I mean you clearly took over the video concepts of Wes Peden's "Expectations" back from 2008 for your "Made in Taiwan"-video. You appreciated something you saw and used it for your own stuff. This is just what people do I guess. Getting inspired by someone and using it, because they like it that much. So maybe you can see it the other way round, as an honour for your work instead of being pissed about it.
The next time I am performing this routine I will totally cut that part out and switch my own thing in, for sure!

I do not want to analyze trick by trick now and check it for it's originality. But I can definatly say that more than 10 percent of the tricks are quite original, such as the last trick, the first bodycombo, the armroll concepts and loops, the juggling and balancing. I say "quite" original because of course, everything is based on concepts made in the past or got lost in a process that The Void detaily described earlier in the discussion.

I do not know which other tricks you claim to be "yours" Arjan, but I was certainly not aware of that! The other tricks - except for the circle walking in the beginning - developed to more or less basic tricks or concepts over the years because so many people did it. I remember a similar discussion about a 2d trick Martijn came up with. He was pissed because someone used it in a video if I am right. But he gave the booster detonation for so many great other tricks using this trick is an intro to loads of other stuff. Graham pointed out the Mill's Mess invention and I think that this argument backs that up quite well.

Coming back to the circle walking, as Jan pointed out correctly, this is a concept by Guillaume inspired by vertax in general I guess. It is about changing the diabolo's plain while it spins. I was amazed by the simplicity of the concept, because the main thing I hate about diabolo is the lack of moving around in space as freely as you can do it with your juggling props. For me, I set the same parameters as for Arjan's walking trick. I already work with this concept and should have created something more around it.

Wis

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2014, 11:08:59 AM »
[I see you commented Tim, but I have been writing a while, so I may edit this post later]

My 2 cents. I also do not like direct copying of personal tricks, this is important Graham, the walk thing is not like a high throw. And I saw Tim training the performance:
- I didn't recognize Guillaume's trick even though I saw him in Toulouse, I guess he did it there. So, first point, you can even see a trick and not remember it, this can easily lead to unconscious inspiration.
- I did clearly recognize Arjan's walk trick and I was surprised. I think it is ok to use this kind of tricks under two circumstances.
    + You created the trick on your own before seeing it on the Internet
    + You have a good relationship with the juggler and you ask for permission explaining why his trick is so amazing you cannot help but using it, if he/she allows.
  So I basically thought that any of the above were fulfilled and did not bother asking.
- How many tricks I have done and I am sure that, probably they were a part of one of Joonas and Eljas tricks that I could not fully understand... this is similar to my first point.
- What happened to Joona's helicopter is perfectly normal because it was a trick that opened a new world of perpendicular suiciding, and maybe, also to perpendicular stick release in body combos. Still I think is is rape what people do with this trick. I feel very reluctant to learn it, I guess it is because of that.

Concerning the act. This is clearly one of the diabolo acts I have enjoyed the most. The reasons are two, non standard tricks and nice mood. I agree you should not change the rhythm when dropping.

About how to build up an act question from Arjan. For me everything is allowed. But I will not like a certain set of performances that solely do standard tricks with some music, at least not as much as others. I love diabolo, I do not know how bad has to be an act so I will regret I have seen it. It has never happened yet, and my eyes have seen terrible stuff.

And now, concerning the person that we are talking about. There is a chance that Tim was not conscious when using those tricks, it is also possible that he had a intention to use them after seeing them because of esthetic reasons. But I would bet but his intention was never to steal trick from other people nor to create such negative emotions on anybody. I was speaking nearly 2 hours with Tim about the performance and we didn't even comment on the featuring tricks, so there is a chance this was not even in his head.
And even if things can be properly made from the beginning, lets say he may have asked you, Arjan, for permission to use the walk thing, things can also be fixed after doing them wrongly. Meaning, Tim could possibly explain himself and this could, hopefully, chill some of you. Talking things through always helped. Can be done via PM as toman said, but maybe it would be nice to have a little message about that here :)

And well, as a personal matter, I would be very glad if somebody would use my tricks on performances, so guys, feel free to do so, although I encourage you to ask for permission :) But the people that know, will always value original stuff more, and it is for that people that I would love to build an act.

EDIT: After reading the post from Tim I think mine can stay as is.
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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2014, 11:13:21 AM »
the walk thing is not like a high throw.

For me, finding that you can turn you sticks in a little different way in a genocide is less a personal finding than to find that your diabolo can turn 360 ° while bouncing it. The one is a variation of a mainstream trick. The other is something really new. This is why I m fine with some tricks being copied, and I get annoyed by seeing other copy pasted on stage.


Im sorry but i have to completely disagree with these statements. In my book, a trick is a trick whether one is harder or something similar already exists and people will continue to copy these tricks whether you like it or not because thats how they grow as artists. How many months or years did it take you in diabolo until you were actually able to invent your own trick? and even then you think you invent a trick and then suddenly you realise every diaboloist already knows it.

this perfect world your imagining where every diaboloist comes up with their own tricks and everyone has a book of their own tricks that people need to ask for permission to use doesnt exist. Where is the Community in this? Where is the Sharing? Where is the growing together? Whats the point in this site existing if it is going to be used for pointing fingers! If you dont want people to steal your tricks, then dont release a 15minute video with all your tricks in it.

Also, the only difference between a 'personal finding' and a 'mainstream move' is that people have decided which trick they want to learn next and it wasnt your personal finding. If everyone had seen this walk move or the bounce move and everyone had learnt it the next day, what would that make it?
I have seen helicopter a thousand times in peoples videos or routines. It quickly went from Joonas 'personal finding' to mainstream move and he got absolutely no say in this matter nor do i think he cares because he knows himself that he invented it and he gets to have that pride that everyone thought his trick was so cool that people were going to spend weeks and weeks just to figure out how it worked.

I had never seen either of these moves until Tim did them, so in my eyes he was teaching me and showing me that there was moves possible that i had never even imagined whether he invented them or not, i dont care, at least now i know they exist. And he should absolutely NOT be punished for this.

As a side note, if people want to steal any of my tricks (not that there's many worth stealing) I hereby give you permission to ask me or watch me or rape my videos in slo mo, as i've raped so many before.

Increase the Peace
G
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von_Ungern_Sternberg

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Re: Tim Schulze @ EJC 2014 Millstreet, Ireland
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2014, 09:19:30 PM »
Graham Milligan your answer is strange. Perhaps you are not very familiar with English, or you did not fully read all the replies. A majority of your post has already been answered and explained, please reread the topic again.

As I feel concerned by your post, I m going to re answer it, using quotes of my last posts to make my answer as clear as possible.

this perfect world your imagining where every diaboloist comes up with their own tricks and everyone has a book of their own tricks that people need to ask for permission to use doesnt exist. Where is the Community in this? Where is the Sharing? Where is the growing together?


As I explained in my last message, if the person takes the trick to do something new. I think it is great! It can be in the way he performs it, in the way he moves with it... or a new diabolo evolution, but for me he has to bring his own input before performing it one stage. I don't say it s forbidden to copy something personal one stage. I say that I don't like to see it, and I think it should not be done.

+
I m aware that a lot of the tricks are part of a diabolo vocabulary that every body uses. I never said that a diabolo player should re invent diabolo before going on stage.


So for me the growing together, sharing and community is that you take personal material from somebody and you make something out of it. I m against the copy past of personal stuff.  Don't forget that it is something else to copy a trick in your room, in order to learn it, and then perhaps do something out of it, than to copy it and do it one stage.

Where have you seen somebody write about his "perfect world"?  By using formulations like "for me", "I think"... I expressed my opinion. It's one of the goal of this forum, no?

On performing art, there are almost no copy writes.  You are allowed to copy a lot without getting legal problems. It does not mean that all the artist that created something will like to see it copy pasted. A majority of stage juggler I know would appreciate that they are asked before one of their personal findings is presented on stage. Some will be fine with it being copied. Other will not like it. It does not mean it is forbidden by law. It means that the juggler you copy pasted the trick from will not like it.

The art field is very subjective. Often there is no official definition. You have to create your own rule of what you think is fine to do and what is not. If people will disagree with you, they will tell you. Personally, I use a lot of mainstream tricks in my work. In my own rules I think it is ok. If somebody will complain to me, I will re think about it.

There is no official definition of mainstream or personal stuff. There is no write or wrong definition. If people disagree with someones copy-paste choices, they are free to feel so and tell him.

And he should absolutely NOT be punished for this.

Don't worry, he will not be punished ;-)

Jan

 

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