POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?

[Furlisht]

Hi Clément,

First, I want to thank you for the amazing job you've done! It's a hard task to put all of this in motion, and for everybody who spent 4 hours filming editing and sending a video and did not make the final cut, it seems important to me to realize all the hours that you put in that video (from start to finish)! It's a big responsibility to put such a video for a big community like the diabolo community!

Back to the other topics, I think it's impossible to put everybody (even with only one shot per diabolist) in a video like this! Everybody nowadays can shoot a short diabolo trick in full hd to send via internet for this kind of event, so there surely will be a lot of raw videos to choose from!

To create two collab video seems to me like a bad idea because every trick and person is different, and nobody would want in my opinion to be relegated into the "second video". To me it looks a bit like the misfits videos, in the shadow of the proper collab!

15 minutes is already a hell of a long video, so I agree with an idea already stated here before me : Be creative! Whether using your technical abilities or spending time trying to film your favorite trick in a good looking location, play with the camera, whatever, create something "unique" in any way you can!

In the end, by allowing you to create this wonderful video, we trusted your emotions and your way to view the collaboration, as an artist would represent its view of a particular subject!

I'd also like to thank everybody for participating in this conversation in a friendly manner, something of rare occurrence on the Internet! It's a really interesting conversation!

[Pau]

In the end, by allowing you to create this wonderful video, we trusted your emotions and your way to view the collaboration, as an artist would represent its view of a particular subject!

Exactly. If all material was sent to you the end result would have been different. And it would also have been different if the editing had been done by me. Bottom line (and at this point my Dutch directness kicks in)
If you (the general you, I don't mean Furlisht or anyone in particular) do not want to go through the bitter disappointment of being left out then don't send any material. As soon as you send a clip you know it will be subject to selection.
And if you want a collaboration video to be the way you like it then run for editor. Only Clément and Lucas did, and Clément got the job. This is what he has created with the material supplied. Be a grown-up about it.

In terms of content, because it is still a work of art this thread is about, the highlight, for me, is Jan's entry. It is aesthetically genius. The background and angle are perfect for the trick, and vice versa. Also, his entry is perfect for a video, on stage it would lose some of its quality I think. Would still be good but not AS good.

[Chloé F.]

@Clément thank you for answering! I guess this took you a long time with all of these answers

As you said, you made the video as an impressive skill video more than a "we are all together" video, and as you are the editor, I do completely respect your point.
However, in my opinion collabs should not only be a matter of skill. I really enjoyed last year's collab because there were many nice landscapes, even though the level was for sure lower. I already said it but I really like watching your video several times a day, I like the music and the tricks, but I do believe that it lacks aesthetics because most of the tricks are filmed in basic environment.
Please, do not take this as a personal attack (I am not that mean!) but what I wanted to say is that you could have made things even better if you had filmed Etienne, Thomas, Nino in the streets of Paris! I know you offered to film people's clips around Paris if we asked you to, and I believe this is a very great proposition. It would certainly have been a shame if these guys had not been in, but again it could have been way more outstanding.

So please don't hate me for what I said, I was for sure frustrated like many others but I only wanted to make a constructive criticism.
Keep in mind that I find this video and your work amazing!

Chloé

[Pau]

Apart from

- good level of tricks
- togetherness/community feeling
- creativity in tricks and editing
- presence of female diaboloists
- pretty background

what more do we want? We might as well draw up a list right now

[Wis]

Thanks Pau, and all the others contributing. And thanks @Clément for the kind words for me.

I was already doing a a list but I wanted to summarize even more aspects of this conversation. Wanna add something? feel free, I may edit this post.

I have tried to make it very synthetic, so please restrain to rephrase what I have listed below unless you feel it brings true informative value.

-------------------------------------Goals/meaning----------------------------------------------

Goals:
- To show people which parts of the world are practicing diabolo
- To show people what are the "best" tricks in the world (technically, creative)
- To show that I feel I belong to the diabolo.ca forum community
- To show that I feel I belong to the diabolo world community (of which diabolo.ca is a symbol)

Meanings for the contributors. With this video it is visible to the world that:
- I belong to the community
- I am good at diabolo
- I am next to the good players

-----------------------------------Analysis of reactions--------------------------------------------

Outputs of the collab:
People that do not appear in the final cut
- Complain that it is too long with very bad tricks
- Complain that it is too demanding and exclusive
- Like or love the video with some remarks
People that do appear in the final cut
- Complain that it is too long with very bad tricks (less emotionally)
- Complain that it is too demanding and exclusive (less emotionally)
- Just like the video with some remarks (more emotionally)

Personal raw feelings
- Cool my trick is in, I am cool enough. And the community is massive, yuhuhuhu!
- My trick is not in. I am bad (technical discrimination), my camera sucks (economic discrimination), my shot is ugly (lazy discrimination), and I thought this is the most important thing in my life
- My trick is in, it is not very cool, it lowers the average of the video, but I am happy I made it
- My trick is not in, and after seeing how good the collab is, I think I can work harder to make a "valuable" contribution
- There is a lot of missing people, I do not want to belong to a community that excludes
- People cry so much, I do not want to collaborate with anybody the rest of my life
- See how they smashed Clément, I do not want to edit in the future
- This video is watchable for non diabolo people, and I want them to watch diabolo because is the best way to have more people doing diabolo in the world (my opinion, this answers @Richard 's question)
- I have watched the video once, I hope I remember where I appear, because I will not watch it complete ever again

-----------------------------------Looking forward--------------------------------------------

2/3 possible main paths:
- Leave this decision to the editor. We can always remember this conversation when starting to prepare for the next collab so the editor may take it into account
- Put some certain set of of minimum rules. E.g: no more than 2/3 tricks per person Nobody seems to be interested on this
- The editor explains what he plans to do and we vote it before the submission period. (@Void's suggestion)

Selection criteria:
- Good level of tricks
- Togetherness/community feeling
- Creativity in tricks and editing
- Presence of female diaboloists
- Pretty background
- Well filmed
- We limit the maximum number of tricks per person
- To try to include representative from the minority groups (at least a girl, at least one person from continent, at least one or two kids)
- Related: to have some minimum geographic limit. E.g: At least one player of each country (if there are any submissions)
- People who are active or were active on the forum, would they get a spot just for that? (Wis says: I like how that feels, Ben (@Icebox) being out of this collab was the toughest part for me)
- And, people who aren't on the forum at all, but they would send in a clip, would they? (Wis says: they may)

Format of the video:
- One longest video
- Two long videos, with symmetric criteria on both (crazy and average players are mixed together)
- Two videos with asymmetric lengths and criteria (possible to choose two editors, potentially one experienced and one novel)
    + First video of only the best, second with everything else
    + First video with only the best, second with mixed of the best with the non-selected tricks for
- Make small thematic collaborations and then a super collab out of it (@Pau's idea, note from Wis: tons of work)

My personal view on some topics
- @Arjan: you convinced me not to go for strict rules, anyway people end up ignoring them or breaking them by mistake
- @Pau, Be a grown-up about it.. we have teens and kids in this forum... remember about it
- @All: Try to be as honest with your feelings as you can when you say "Let's just put everybody in a long video". That is the easy moral thing to do today, but in the future it can come back to you.
- Now I am going to explain my general diabolo modus operandi. I spend tons of time writing and thinking about diabolo, I love it. I spend so much time because I want more people to enjoy diabolo, both by practising and watching. Imagine if the diabolo.ca collab had more African players. That would be a consequence of what we are doing. And that would mean that now more people enjoy diabolo in Africa. And I think diabolo brings joy wherever it goes.
- Does it make any sense to say that "we want the video to represent the community, not to create something that will get 1M views, but we do not want to make two asymmetric videos because then the second one will not get enough views". This is a clear contradiction between goal and train or thought, sorry @Dominik.
- This is why I would encourage the next editor to use any of the Two videos with asymmetric lengths and criteria. I also encourage to have two editors, probably knowing that the second video will be less visible to the world may encourage people starting out to volunteer for this video
    + The short video achieves my goal, spreading the diabolo word.
    + The long video achieves the community goal, to keep us together somehow. It allows to be more selective without remorse.
    + Long video with young editor, young person holding responsability, becoming a greater editor, growing in importance in the diabolo community, chances to not be judged too severly. I can still remember I felt bad for Max when there were some comments on editing quality in 2011 (http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=9510.msg105219#msg105219)
    + Some downsides of this option are:
        * people may feel this is too exclusive, to be in the second video and stop contributing (I am fine with that, being at all out is worse for me, speaking of charity is senseless in this case, in my eyes),
        * the community may tear apart and the forum activity will decline (hehehe, too late for that),
        * instead of getting motivation to improve people will be discouraged (in most of the people I saw the reaction of 'ok, so I will train more, and if next year I need to complain I will do it like Sebi and Valerian, and others, from the inside')
- I am fine also with the other solutions that I do not promote. My main goal is efficiency, short video, less editing work, better edition (you get numb editing such long videos), higher impact -> More players all around the world -> Finally somebody beats Robin More amazing things for us to watch and enjoy.
- Funnily enough, last year Max (different Max than 2011) didn't have so much trouble because he didn't get as many submissions as Clément. And why Clément got them? Because he promoted the collab to have a great final product.


It is so funny how the tagging not working issue as been fixed just on time for this discussion. Thanks @Void. It is even funnier that I cannot make it work in this massive post

[5p3ak]

Apart from

- good level of tricks
- togetherness/community feeling
- creativity in tricks and editing
- presence of female diaboloists
- pretty background

what more do we want? We might as well draw up a list right now

Here's what I think, mainly more diversity.
-limit the appearance of the same person up to 2 times, prefably not doing the same "family" of skills, for example 1 scene doing 1D and the other doing 3D.
-At least 1 person per country if possible, again depending on submission.
-Wider age range, more kids, perhaps more middle aged/senior citizens?
-Related to the previous point, less focus on Pure Technical Skill, and maybe slightly more focus on creativity,body movement of subject/talent,emotion,expressions,stage presence, collaborative playing(passings,2 person 1 set of sticks etc) and cinematography.

Thank You.

[Jannis]

i think we are making ourselfs way to much thoughts about this one.
clement had the job of editing the collab, so he sat the rules. next year it may be someone else editing the video, and that person will set different rules. that's how it's always been, and that's how it should stay.

[Pau]

Surely there is a solution somewhere between a very extensive set of rules and the "don't fuss" sentiment.

I must say I like the idea of two separate videos. That way more people will be in one of them. How about...


one crazy skill video and one style/creativity video?


And leave the rules to the editors, with this thread for inspiration and reference, as has been proposed?

Skill and creativity not excluding each other of course, and with with some clips it might be a little hard to choose in which video they should be (think Alexis' clip in this year's collab video).

 

[The Void]

In the end, by allowing you to create this wonderful video, we trusted your emotions and your way to view the collaboration, as an artist would represent its view of a particular subject!

I'd also like to thank everybody for participating in this conversation in a friendly manner, something of rare occurrence on the Internet! It's a really interesting conversation!

Completely agree with both of these.

[Pieter]

I’m happy a lot of people shared their thoughts about this.
Here are some replies I would like to give:

@Arjan

“I don't think we will find clear answers to our questions. I don't think we have to. In the end, it has always been the job of the editor, and, it has to be said again, they have all done a great job always, and this one is no exception.”

OK, but maybe this is the problem right now, that a lot of people think there is a problem with this system. It’s not because ‘it has always been the job of the editor’ this is a good/unchangeable thing…

@Aldair Espinosa

“The most important thing is not the quiality of a video, it's how we are togheter like a community.”

Do we agree? This is still the basic question we have to answer in my opinion.
The diabolo.ca forum is the way we are together as a community. The video we make each year is a collaboration of people from this community, and this should be a quality collaboration.

@Richard

“It's interesting to see that a lot of people say that the focus of the collaboration video is to show the rest of the world what Diabolo.ca can do.
I'd like to ask the question: why is this a priority?”

I don't see what's the point of a collaboration video if we don't share it with the world. I think most of us know eachother from videos, being in one video together can't be the only purpose of a collab? Clément did some advertising like "do you want to be in the video with ****?" ok, that's just teasing people, but that isn't the reason we make the video, is it? It is a collaboration video, not a presenting video.

@7531

“Also I don t think that views are important, is more about have fun doing a video wich each member of the comunity than have thounsands of views.”

Yes that’s true, but that doesn’t mean the output doesn’t have to be good quality. Otherwise we should stop uploading this video to youtube, because this is the way you present a video to the world nowadays. Otherwise we just post it on diabolo.ca and make it a 'members only' video. (Everyone who’s saying we make it for ourselves, think about this! Is that really the reason?)

@5p3ak

“-At least 1 person per country if possible, again depending on submission.
-Wider age range, more kids, perhaps more middle aged/senior citizens?”

@Wis

"- Presence of female diaboloists"

I don’t think these are valuable criterions. Nationality nor gender can be the reason to include a submission. We don’t discriminate in the diabolo community, so in my opinion nationality nor gender are things we have to discuss about here.
@Wis, I don’t see why this should be selection criteria. Can you tell me why you consider this as important?

@JaNnI$

“i think we are making ourselfs way to much thoughts about this one.
clement had the job of editing the collab, so he sat the rules. next year it may be someone else editing the video, and that person will set different rules. that's how it's always been, and that's how it should stay.”

Ok, this is a bit like saying “women never had the right to vote, ‘that's how it's always been, and that's how it should stay.’”


Maybe this forum has got too big to let one person decide about a project that is close to a lot of people’s heart…
Two videos definitely won’t solve the problem! Next year the discussion will be about how this and this person should have been in the other video and vice versa… This will easily lead to the ‘good’ and the ‘bad’ collab… (exactly what @Furlisht said! (

“To create two collab video seems to me like a bad idea because every trick and person is different, and nobody would want in my opinion to be relegated into the "second video". To me it looks a bit like the misfits videos, in the shadow of the proper collab!”

))
The idea of people who want to do the task of editing, presenting there thoughts about it, seems a good idea, although this still can lead to unhappy people…
also: I don’t think this is a topic we are spending too much thoughts on nor that it will solve it self.

And I stick to my point: be “unique” and “creative”! this should be the selection criteria we need. (and in my opinion gender and nationality should not be on the list of @Wis selection-criteria…) In my opinion Clément didn't used "technical skills" as selection criteria. There was fun and creativity in this video. And I think there were some nice tricks/clips a lot of people can do, for example: I don’t think it’s very hard to land a diabolo in your nuts while lying on the floor under a diabolo, this is no technical skill, but only Nino has the balls to do it, which resulted in a comic nice clip everybody enjoyed. The same with the trick at the end: a nice collaboration trick of four people and only one need a diaboloskill to whip the diabolo at the end, a lot of people could do this funny thing… remember the guy embracing his mom in a previous collab: not very technical skilled, but oh so funny… 

[7531]

Main idea of a diabolo collaboration video for me is just have fun. I don t care if the video has 2 milion views or 5. Is more like have a video of all the people of this forum doing some diabolo tricks. For must be more open to everyone, as I said If you want a pro video, like the collaboration video of this year, just mae one with the best diabolo players of this forum.

Many people put effort to record something and now they are not on the video, that is really bad. For example some good diabolo players from south america send videos and they are not on the videoI met some diabolo players and like 90% just play diabolo for fun and not to have the highest level.

We have to decide what we want, a pro video whith only a few diabolo players or a video that shows all the people of this great community. I suggest to make a poll and we ll see what people want.
peace

[Antoine Boyer]

Hi, I'm not really a member of d.ca but I love diabolo and I wanted to say something  !

Ok so I recorded something and I'm not in the video too, but i think that many people who was complaining, forgot that Clement tried to do his best. Be the editor is not easy, all decisions can be disappointing for someone, he did a perfect job and we have to respect him for this and remember you that for the most part you have never been editor of a collaboration video (i was already editor for a collaboration video of a diabolo website but less famous with 30 french diabolo players) and you don't imagine the responsibilities that you have.
I recognize that we can be disapointted but we can't blame the job of Clement, and I congratulate him for this amazing video.

peace (sorry for my bad english)

[Jannis]

Ok, this is a bit like saying “women never had the right to vote, ‘that's how it's always been, and that's how it should stay.’”

you got me wrong there. i just wanted to say that we should trust in the editor to make choices. at leat we voted for clement to edit the video, so we should be good with the decision he makes.

[Pau]

Not everybody is. That is why we are having a discussion. Apparently, something has changed. Be it a perception. Be it the number of people who sent in a clip. Something has changed and many people feel the need to work out a way to take this change into account when making collaboration videos in the future.

[Wis]

@5p3ak @Wis I don’t think these are valuable criterions. Nationality nor gender can be the reason to include a submission. We don’t discriminate in the diabolo community, so in my opinion nationality nor gender are things we have to discuss about here.
@Wis, I don’t see why this should be selection criteria. Can you tell me why you consider this as important?

Yes, I can. First I put it because it seems that for certain people it is important, I was summarising what was said. The fact that for somebody that wants to participate in the project is important is relevant to me.
Then, thinking about the feeling of this collective I tend to see a important benefit. You say we want to show what the community can do. But there are sectors inside the community, and some with some marked styles. In any case, showing what the best people of these sectors can do, can motivate those viewers to work harder. By the identification principle. Is there any equivalent to Etienne in the girls world, not yet, and I would like to see that. I think ensuring that the best clip sent from a girl to the editor makes it to the final cut is a good way to help to have better level in the future.
And that applies for kids, people from latin america, spaniards (we are so few )

Maybe this forum has got too big to let one person decide about a project that is close to a lot of people’s heart…
Two videos definitely won’t solve the problem! Next year the discussion will be about how this and this person should have been in the other video and vice versa… This will easily lead to the ‘good’ and the ‘bad’ collab… (exactly what @Furlisht said! ())
The idea of people who want to do the task of editing, presenting there thoughts about it, seems a good idea, although this still can lead to unhappy people…
also: I don’t think this is a topic we are spending too much thoughts on nor that it will solve it self.

So the two videos and the voting are ideas that do not attempt to solve the problem completely but to: have the goals of everybody as covered as possible, and to have everybody as happy as possible. There is no perfect answer. I fully agree it is better to talk about this topic as much as we can. This is the best way to know how many people wants one or another thing.

We have to decide what we want, a pro video whith only a few diabolo players or a video that shows all the people of this great community. I suggest to make a poll and we ll see what people want.
peace

This is a good idea, but I am a little afraid quite some people will not vote. I mean that many people that wanted to appear in the video will not even read this thread, and I'm personally interested in their opinion. I don't see it as their fault the fact that forums lost tons of activity and inertia. Maybe we can complement it with some questions in some Facebook groups. I can take care of that, but I accept any volunteer,

Please note that having this discussion is not blaming Clément. Even the people that are unhappy love the job he did. And here we are just putting the cards on the table, so in the next collab hopefully less complains may arrive. This is still compatible with "trusting the editor to make choices", this is just giving him input so the choices are as informed as possible.

I'd like this community to stay as little ruthless as possible. But again, maybe 7531 does not mind if the video has little views, I do. I think it will help more to have more people doing diabolo around the world. The highest number of views, and ensuring that as many sectors of the community are represented, the highest attracting power it will have, I believe.

[aaro]

Sorry, but who else should we blame for leaving most of people out, if not the editor who made the decision?

I understand that he was voted for the job, but does that make it impossible to criticize the product? In fact, i think the actual edit is good and while the music is not my cup of tea, i would be fine with it. The biggest problem is the actual inclusion/exclusion of clips and people.

While i support the idea of having more amateurs and kids in the video, i would also like to point out that some or most of the people on the video are amateurs. As in, they do not do diabolo as their profession. Doing 5 low in your backyard does not make you a professional juggler. Getting paid for juggling makes you a pro.

So what we have here is a subjective decision to include people in a collaboration video based on the quality of the clip and the quality of the trick on the clip. Maybe what makes people angry the most, is the fact that some people appear many times, while so many others where completely left out. This feels like maybe surface appeal was also a factor. That does not really speak well for the community being broad and open, as i think is our goal, or is it?

[Wis]

I said that having the discussion of what to do in next years is a separate thing from blaming. I tend to prefer what has happened, and hence I am grateful to Clément. But yeah, each can blame as wants. But since you posed a question I'll answer. Shouldn't we share a part of the blame as a community for not having had this clearly needed discussion earlier?

[Pau]

Shouldn't we share a part of the blame as a community for not having had this clearly needed discussion earlier?

I can see the point you are trying to make Wis. And I have a question for you. When did we find out a discussion was needed? As far as I am aware the need arose after Clément's video was published.

I think that as a community we should not be blaming Clément or anybody else and use all that energy to find a solution instead. This discussion is a good first step.

[aaro]

I don't think i articulated my point too well there. What i meant to say, is that the editor makes the calls, and if the editor works without any community guidelines, there will be disappointments. Atleast in my mind collaboration video is not supposed to be some red bull d**k waving contest, but a representation of community.

[Pieter]

@JaNnI$

“i just wanted to say that we should trust in the editor to make choices. at leat we voted for clement to edit the video, so we should be good with the decision he makes.  ”

True but this is what we need to agree about: are there guidelines needed (and I think most of us are willing to accept guidelines if this avoids unhappy people) and if so, which one? Of course the editor eventually will be the executive power but we as a group are the legislative power.

@Wis I think I see your point but I think this will lead to trouble… If you want representatives for sectors in the community, where will this division end? The sectors are endless…
Does it matter there is no female equivalent to Etienne? It’s not necessary to have a collaboration video full with beasty moves, they have to be “unique” and “creative” (sorry I keep saying this, but I have a bit the feeling nobody is picking up these criteria, and for me they seem the most general, less discriminating). There is no single reason why a girl or any person from any nationality can make a creative shot.
To talk a bit more about uniqueness and creativity ( ) :

“I think ensuring that the best clip sent from a girl to the editor makes it to the final cut is a good way to help to have better level in the future.”

I have the feeling your aim of the collab is showing skills? (at least that’s what I read between the lines ) Let Etienne do his unique beasty moves and let the girls do some creative stuff, no reason the exclude any of them. But including a girl because she’s a girl, seems to me a wrong selection argument.
Does it matter for the purpose of the collab if there are a few or a lot Spanish diabolo players?

About the two videos: just thinking about that gives me already the feeling of disunity. True there will be no perfect solution but we have to find the second best, and I think two videos isn’t the second best…

Making a poll doesn’t seem a good idea to me either… like you said: a fraction will vote. And we all know where voting leads to, before we know Trump is editing the next years collab…

@aaro

“So what we have here is a subjective decision to include people in a collaboration video based on the quality of the clip and the quality of the trick on the clip.”

The selection will always be subjective, but do you agree we have to find guidelines or criteria, which are ok for the community, to make it less random?

@aaro

“Atleast in my mind collaboration video is not supposed to be some red bull d**k waving contest, but a representation of community.”

Ok this is your opinion, can you tell us why, because now it is just an opinion… Have you read my thoughts about it, where do you disagree with me? I already gave some arguments why I think the collab is not just a representation or presentation of people doing diabolo. I also gave arguments why the collab shouldn’t be a ‘high skilled’-selection only.


<3