POLL: Collaboration -16 feedback, maybe we could do this?

[Wis]

TO SEE THE ORIGIN OF THIS DISCUSSION GO TO THIS THREAD
http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=12861.msg119143#msg119143

Woa boy, so much emotion. I like that. Let us try to make good use of it.

So this year there was a very high level when selecting tricks, I feel I almost was left out, and the collaboration is amazing to watch.
In 2012 there was also an amazing to watch one, and there was not such strong feeling of people cut out, but there was some.
The ones from previous years had a high rate of repetition of tricks, and I do not watch them so much, personally.

What do we want, a video of all the people around the world that like diabolo.ca, or a video of the best tricks? We want a mostly see one or 2 times video? Or a this video is insane and I want to watch it many times

We never put rules, the editor decides on his own. But we can try to change that. I see the following options, which can be combined
1 - We accept that as it happened this year is fair. We want a collab of best tricks, and people need to fight to be included
2 - We limit the maximum number of tricks per person
3 - We make a longer video which does not exclude anybody except for camera quality
4 - We make two long videos where Great tricks and average tricks are mixed so to make it watchable
5 - We make two videos, one of "Best tricks" and one of "All together". We can even have two separate editors, where the most experienced one edits the Best tricks part. If we do it this way the best tricks part could be 5/6 minutes, making it watchable for non diabolo people.

My favorites are 2 and 5.

But I want to say an additional thing. To all those people complaining that they are not in the diabolo.ca collaboration video, but have never posted a single thing in diabolo.ca (which is not the case of anybody in this thread)... maybe you can do something more to have the community feeling that you seem to miss in the video.

Please, comment

[7531]

2,3 and 5 would be a good option

[Dominik]

What do we want, a video of all the people around the world that like diabolo.ca, or a video of the best tricks? We want a mostly see one or 2 times video? Or a this video is insane and I want to watch it many times

Please, comment

Well, basically there are two major options. The first one is to make good advertisment for the forum, which reflects the collab of this year. The second one is to show all the different diabolists around the world (regardless their skill), and to me this is what a collaboration video is actually about.

Now to your propositions:

1. As you can see, it doesn't seem to be the right way, since too many people are unhappy about it.

2. Definitely a good idea. I mean several people this year sent in like 3 or 4 clips at the exact same location...

3. How a real collab should be like imo.

4 and 5 are not a good idea, since everyone would watch the video with the higher skill level, as you stated correctly.

[SebiHausi]

As the red bull pao moderator would say: NICE!
You did an amazing job with this video Clément.
I understand both perspectives of the critics above and believe that this is a difficult subject. I understand that you wanted to make a video with only amazing tricks which will be remembered and watched a bunch of times as Wis has already said. But on the other side I would feel a bit angry too if I was left out after making the effort to film and submit something.
I propose a 6th solution:
2 parts of the collab where the first one is with the most amazing tricks like the one you did and another one with the rest of the submissions to make sure the community spirit is not broken and it is not just about who has got most skill!
You could actually still make that second part if you have the time and motivation for it . I mean I won't and I can't force you to do anything but I believe it would be a nice gesture. Alternativley maybe somebody else could do it?

[Pieter]

Do we actually want a video that doesn’t exclude anyone except for camera quality? I just ask because we’re now discussing the collab’s fundaments. I think this is some interesting material we have to think about as a community, certainly because this is about how we, the diabolo.ca community, represent ourselves to the world in a video each year.
For me the collab is a video we present to the world showing what we are doing with diabolo all around the world.
If we say: ‘anyone who sends a clip in HD will be in the video’, we have to think that through. I don’t know how many members diabolo.ca has, but if every member sends a clip this will be a hell of a long video… of course this will never occur, but with the ‘no excluding-rule’ this is what the video will and should be.
I don’t think the collab should be a video that is just presenting people who do diabolo, I think it has to be a video about diabolo and people who can do “original”, “unique” things with a diabolo. In my opinion this should be the aim of the collaboration: showing the world what we, the diabolo community, can do with a diabolo.
And with this purpose in mind I think it is reasonable to select clips. And don’t get me wrong I don’t say it has to be the top of the best diabolo people around the world, the clip has to be original and unique and this doesn’t have to do with technical skills. People who can do an infinite suicide as their best trick will not be selected if they film this in their backyard (sorry but what does that bring to the video/community/the world? we have seen that thousands of times, it's just not representing diabolo as it is today) BUT if you do this trick on the top of your house with a spectacular sunset behind you and fighting a bear in the mean time, this could be a very interesting clip to include. So in my opinion skills can’t be a problem for not being in the video, but if you’re not skilled there has to be something else that makes it worth to include your clip.
I think it doesn’t have to be too easy to be in the collab (just ‘doing diabolo’ isn’t enough), we have to put a bit of effort in it. Those who are really skilled can do a beasty move in their backyard and be in the video because of their skills (and their effort was in the hours/years of practice it took to manage this beasty move). Those who don’t have these skills will have to put effort in something else: amazing location, creativity, humour, etc.
So the collab has to be about the best clips (not about the best diabolo players), and I think it is necessary to ‘select’ them.

Ok, so that was my opinion about it, I would like to hear your thoughts. Maybe you don’t agree with my basic premise about what a diabolo collaboration is, or should be. If so let us know your thoughts about it, I think this is the first thing we have to agree about before making up rules…

[5p3ak]

Congrats on the release of this year's collab video, however I am kinda disappointed with this years collab, IMO it needs more diversity and less of the same people.

[Arjan]

So a comic summary of what Pieter said; If you are a beast, you are in. If you aren't a beast, don't worry, get a beast (bear, tiger, crocodile, snake), fight it and you're still in. 

I see your point Pieter, very clear. I agree. And the point of work for it, totally valid I would say.

Personally I feel like I could be almost left out this year for some reason, like Wis also said. I didn't put that much effort in, I did send in a second clip that was together with Dixie that didn't make the cut, it was I guess maybe over exposed (quality issue) or just to boring, I don't know. It's all right, I'm happy with my spot. I know I can do something beastly, but honestly, getting that, at a nice location is just to much of a hassle for me. I rather send in something I know I will get on tape before I go out to a location.

But it raises another question I think, people who are active or were active on the forum, would they get a spot just for that? I mean, everyone here clearly does diabolo. Is that enough? And, people who aren't on the forum at all, but they would send in a clip, would they?

I don't think we will find clear answers to our questions. I don't think we have to. In the end, it has always been the job of the editor, and, it has to be said again, they have all done a great job always, and this one is no exception. This one is amazing, and I am so happy and grateful Clement has spent a great amount of time doing the work and making these difficult decisions.

We as a community are much more than the annual collab, although, it is that one very special thing that has happened for the last (10?) years. That, and the EJC meet and great are our communities biggest happenings. We do this for ourselves, not for anyone outside the world of diabolo. The release of the collab has always been an early and free(!) xmas gift, is how I see it. And we are the ones who enjoy it the most.

I don't think strict rules and guidelines will simply be necessary. This is something that, with all respect, will naturally workout.
Maybe, we could set up a board or review group, represented by members of the community to be involved in the selection process of the collab, but that alone will be tricky to setup. Our editors have never let us down, they cant please us all.

I am very glad with everyone taking part in this discussion. Please keep em coming.

[Aldair Espinosa]

I've reading this comments in the morning, and I understand all the points of views of everybody. Well,  let me tell us something: Clement did a lot of disaster  to promote  the video, he used to publish: "Arjan will be...Etienne will be... don't you wanna appear with them? Send a clip". And we did it. Clement said that he recibed 100 videos or more than... but he decided to use "the best" videos, and it doesn't looks like because ChinChanHao appears maybe 7 times in the video, and everybody too! ****! Sorry for don't know how to film haha..   He could use another participant to don't have that problem of "repetition", and why I say this? Because there's a lot of people with good tricks, if you watch that is the same trick, delete it! But don't push out to the people who did our best to the video! Who tried to make an original trick and it doesn't appears! because all who sent a clip was with the illusion  to appear and share a space whit people of any part of the world, because we're a community. And in this video doesn't appear this.
Also, yes... I'm tired of watch the same tricks since 2013, but now I'm tired of watch  the same people, and now more because Clement did it more than 5 times hahaha. Now,  I'm not agree to do "a second video ", I don't want your consolation.  I'm a little disappointed and frustrated.
Clement had the opportunity to re alive diabolo.ca collaborations. The most important thing is not the quiality of a video, it's how we are togheter like a community.

Sorry for my English, hope you can understand.

[Jannis]

in my opinion choosing the best tricks for the video is the right way to go. our video represents what our forum is capable of. if you want to be part of it, fight for it like everyone in the video did. cases are, if you are not in the video, that shows you that you may want to practice more.

and i'd rather watch a 5 minute video filled with amazing tricks than a 15 minute video where i have to watch bad/unclean tricks for 60% of the time.
i also think that this is one of the main points of why this video is better than the videos of the last years. you can watch the video and enjoy every trick, no matter if you are a pro player or a beginner, because every trick was a highlight. in the last years you had to watch so many "not so good" clips, that those few awesome tricks just weren't enough to make me watch the video over and over again.

[Timo]

I completely agree with everything @Pieter said.
I think @Clément did an amazing job editing this years Collaboration Video. By the selecting @Clément has done, he managed to create the, in my opinion, visually and trick-wise most beautiful Collaboration so far, even a bit better than the Collaboration Video from 2012 (Which is really hard to top).
The beauty of the collaboration video each year is that every year another person gets voted to edit the video. The person who gets voted gets all the freedom to put up rules for submitting and to edit the video how he wants. By that he gets to decide how he wants to, of course, edit a great video for us, the Diabolo community. But even more important, he gets the freedom to decide how he wants to present the Diabolo Community the best way to the rest of the world. And who doesn't believe it isn't about showing Diabolo to the rest of the world: The Collaboration Video from 2012 has 913 Thousand views, making it almost a million and one of the most watched Diabolo videos up to now. And you can trust me, these are not 913 Thousand views only from people who play diabolo.
Also: Next year the editor you vote for may, or probably will, edit the video completely different.
I also have to disagree with @Aldair Espinosa:

The most important thing is not the quiality of a video, it's how we are together like a community.

Of course it's about being together as a community but that doesn't mean that we have to include completely everyone. I agree that some people in this years video could have been shown less so other people can get included but this is how @Clément decided to show Diabolo to the entire world. But I guess I also have to agree with @Aldair Espinosa a bit about the promotion of the video. I think it was awesome that @Clément put so much effort into reminding people all the time about the collaboration so a lot of people contribute, but I can see how not getting included (I don't know how many weren't included) can be a bit sad and disappointing.

But as I said, @Clément did an amazing job and managed to create my favorite collaboration video so far. And if you didn't get included, you have another chance each and every year to submit an even more awesome clip

[7531]

Of course it's about being together as a community but that doesn't mean that we have to include completely everyone.

If diabolo.ca is a comunnity for all the diabolo players I understand that a diabolo.ca collaboration video must be for ALL. If you want a good video with awesome tricks you can make a post here and pick the best players of diabolo.
Also I don t think that views are important, is more about have fun doing a video wich each member of the comunity than have thounsands of views.

[Aldair Espinosa]

@Timo  Of course, not everyone can appear, but what I wanted to say was: In the other collabs, you could see the union of diabolo players, and in this video it doesn´t looks like, that´s unusual. That´s what I wanted to say, man. Anyways, it´s a good job from Clemo. 

[Richard]

It's interesting to see that a lot of people say that the focus of the collaboration video is to show the rest of the world what Diabolo.ca can do.

I'd like to ask the question: why is this a priority?

Does it matter that the 2012 got 900k views? For me it's more about sharing within our community. But I understand if you think otherwise.

I do believe that visually this is the best video by far, but at what expense? Is it really a collaboration of everyone from this forum or just a select few, top diaboloists in the world. If the latter, then why call it a collaboration video? it seems like a large percentage of diaboloists that submitted their videos didn't make the cut, so they didn't collaborate at all.

[Icebox]

HOLD UP is that the Quentin that did Useless Information? Because if so then that's a real blast from the past.

I don't necessarily think that every clip that gets submitted should make the final cut, but as long as the clip has merit to it I think it's worth including, especially when the alternative is using several clips from the same few people. The collaboration video is a nice way to get your face out there and be a part of something whole even if you don't have a treasure-trove of tricks up your sleeve. As great as it is to see such high level play from the people who appear several times, I think inclusion for the rest of the community at large is more important to me, especially if it's evident that the submitter cares about the quality of what they're contributing to the video. Just my $0.02.

[Chloé F.]

My opinion completely goes along Icebox's one.
By criticising the selection of the clips I did not mean to say that the video was bad. I really enjoy watch it as anybody else here.
But the collab spirit is however stained by this selection.
I also agree with Sebi, it could be very nice to make a second part video. Not for the hype, not for the craziness of the tricks obviously, because it would probably be much less "watchable" as some of you said, than the first one. But to preserve the collaborative spirit that is a really nice idea.
But nowadays we don't need to make a short video with only the "best of the best", in my opinion it could be interesting to mix awesome clips with medium quality clips, it wouldn't make it bull**** or anything. That way we could keep both impressive trucks along with the collaborative aspect.

[The Void]

@Clément Very cool. Thank you for all the work you did in putting this together. I enjoyed watching it, and I enjoyed the vibe of the music too, even though that's not my sort of music - but I felt like it "worked" in this video.

The discussion is very interesting, with many good points all round. I very much like the idea of inclusiveness, but the balance of what makes a "watchable" video should, I think, always be in the hands of the editor.

Perhaps next year, anyone who proposes themselves to be voted as the editor can give their opinion of how they plan to edit (what will make it in, how many clips per person, skill level, video quality, locations... etc), and then when we vote, we will collectively choose our editor, but also the style for that year's collab.

Spin on!

[Pau]

Whoa, what a video! I can understand why these entries made it to the collab.

At the same time I understand the emotions of the people who have been left out. I think this is symptomatic of our discipline. Whichever way we turn it diabolo not only has been having a faster evolution than any other juggling discipline in recent years. The level of performance is also very, very high as this video shows. We saw the same thing in the EJC diabolo battle, where selection rounds had to be held for a first time this year.

The solution that came to my mind is not on Wis' list and I will take the liberty to present it to you now.

Would it be an option to make several collab videos - eg one pro collab, one amateur collab, one girl collab, one French collab, one Taiwanese collab- and present them here so that people can vote which entry they like best? And make one final collab video after the votes have been counted?
That way, we would get many more free Christmas presents , it also makes sure everyone is in one video or another AND we get one final collab video with the very best tricks that will have been chosen in a democratic way. I understand this would be too much work for one editor. We'd be needing several.

[Clément]

Ok ok i think it's time to reply.

I'm little sad about the community reaction, because the a big part of the community dont talk about the tricks the video herself  but they ask : why i'm not in the collab, you forget me ect ...
I can understand this reaction,many people have filmed for this collab and they are not there ( lots of questions  : really ? i spend time for this and i'm not in? )

You know when the diabolo.ca collaboration video start in 2006 it was during the post " Diabology " age , people really started to be creative and that change the diabolo world for many of us, i saw Diabology i saw  the first diabolo.ca collab in 2006, and i saw the WJF 2004 when diabolo was back in juggling world.
When you see the collab in 2006 today again i can see the best of the best of the of the time " Antonin " , " Jibe " , "Arjan" ( you still the best today bro  ) " , and the collab is amazing , like 2007, 2008, the selection was tough but for the good of diabolo community , when i saw the 2008 collab that motived me to create more than just diabolo tricks but it's art we need to creat for make people dream and motivated to create their own tricks and impress the community.

My selection was tough maybe too tough cause i see all the diabolo progression during 10 years, and in diabolo world 10 years is gigantic, now we have 5 low , 6 high catches, 10 diabolos passing attempt, crazy 3 low tricks, that incredible, i don't made the decision alone i ask some people if i need to be tough or not and i wanted to make the collab more professional and motived the diabolo community with this collab, don't take this like in insult if you are not in the collab, i have been making mistakes of choice tricks or not received all the tricks in mail but i'm really proud about this collaboration and many of the best diabolists in the world think the same thing, maybe it's a professional collab but that was good for the internet community.

Now i want to talk about the controversy about this choice, i saw lot's of talk about me , like " some people are only in the collab because they clement's friends  " or " it's a planet diabolo collab not d.ca collab" " we saw ChihaHan Cheo (@Aldair Espinosa 4 times not 7) too much like thomas and clément " " 0 mexicanos "  and more controversy about me , i don't want too much about that because for me it's a wast of time to talk to me, like Wis say and try to develop in Facebook not only my friend (never meet ChihaHan Cheo, Tyson,Tino,Stepan and more more ) are in the collab and it's not my fault if my friend are " Etienne " or " Thomas " or " Guillaume " really guys you don't want them in the collab ? anyways  @Chloé F. talking about how I should have filmed in Paris ( 104 ) it's it is a personal attack because yes i understand your point of view but without me Etienne Thomas Robin don't have rushs for this collab ... but it's a wast of time to talk about that ...

When i started the collaboration i tell i want to come back in 2008 i was thinking everybody knows the selection criteria of this collab , Martijn select the tricks and the returns were very good, but now internet is very popular and lots of people send tricks like i said more than 100 rushs maybe 140 something like that, it's impossible to satisfy everyone really and the collab during 14 minutes it's long, same like 2008 ...

In 2014 the collab was very controversial ( look the dislike in Youtube ) of some people like " i was hopping a better level " , " always the same things " , " not high level ", i think we need to respect the editor choice , 2013 was a very community collab yes it's good but not a very high level like this year and i understand diabolo.ca need to present the diabolo.ca community, this year was a selected collab maybe next less tough, community need to choose this. But the same people who say : the collab 2014 is very bad , and now in 2016 " you are too tough to the selection " i think THIS is the problem, we can't satisfy everyone , all level , all amateurs, all professional,all community.

I'm very proud about this collab and i understand why some people are displeased but try to understand my position and not to be fixed about " why i'm not in the collab " think about the diabolo world , diabolo.ca is the biggest diabolo forum in the world and that why made a selection.

I do not denigrate anyone who is not in the collab i hope you trust me and for some people the hesitation was very very long..

A big thanks to Wis who try to bring together the diabolo community around the world.
Sorry if my english is not perfect.

Clément

[Pau]

I'm very proud about this collab and i understand why some people are displeased but try to understand my position and not to be fixed about " why i'm not in the collab " think about the diabolo world , diabolo.ca is the biggest diabolo forum in the world and that why made a selection.

I do not denigrate anyone who is not in the collab i hope you trust me and for some people the hesitation was very very long..

You have every reason to be proud, it is a fantastic video. I enjoyed watching it very much and I am sure you did your very best to put it together in the best way you could think of.

At the same time your video has created a bit of a debate. It is the starting point of a discussion and I think it is very healthy for the art of diabolo and for our community/forum to discuss how we can make even better videos in the future. Thank you for making clear how you went about in selecting the best clips for the video. Inevitably your video will show how you think a collab video should be. That is not necessarily bad. Quite on the contrary I would say. And as you said: you can't please everybody. But let's take this opportunity to find a way that suits all, or most of us.

[Clément]

Thanks you Pau for your maturity of your comments and your right