Diabolo Competitions - Preferred format

[Wis]

Hi people!

This is a thing I have asked around personally for some time but never thought of bringing it to the big audience. We are trying to empower to creation of any kind diabolo competitions around the world, and it would be lovely to see what do YOU think

Simple question: What is your preferred format for a diabolo competition? and optionally (desirably), why?

Also, the question has two aspects:
  A- Basic format for a single confrontation
  B- Format for a complete competition, maybe a whole day event

I guess the big question is:
You want an complex strict way of competing/evaluating, or a rather loose system where judges are given freedom to choose who they prefer.

I will put here the list of options, and one can think of them:
1- Diabolo competition of 3/5 minutes performances, no equipment/plane/number of diabolos limitations. (Optionally with duo) Tricks are pre-prepared and the music is known.
2- Diabolo competitions with several different categories, 1D, 2D, 3D (4 and 5 ), vertax, bearings,... and then a complete evaluation of the whole thing out together.
3- Freestyle competitions/Slams: Players are encourage to improvise their tricks. Obviously short routines are unavoidable and allowed.
4- Diabolo Battles. One on one competitions, no equiment/plane/number of diabolos limitations. This can be single rounds or a complete elimination branch where, for example 16 players compete one on one until there is a champion.
5- Teams versus single player competitions.
6- System of evaluations:
- very specified, like with a click system as used by the FDC, see as an example the yoyo rules where judges have clickers on her hands to count things all the time during the performances (http://iyyf.org/rules/freestyle-rule/) OR
- very loose, judges just choose who was "Better" including many criterias (technique, creativity, difficulty, cleanness, style, stage presence, etc) that they evaluate without noting down, just choosing a winner. Like in the EJC Diabolo Battle, rules here https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLov58giMt1ZGg2ZkRlSTlBclk/view?usp=sharing.


If you do not understand what I want from you, just write what would be your ideal diabolo competition.

I tend to prefer the loose approach, it is less stressing. What do you think?

[aaro]

This is really important topic, i hope as many people as possible chip in their thoughts.

B- Format for a complete competition, maybe a whole day event

Finland has a long history of diabolo events. The competition will have its tenth anniversary next year. While there has been many changes to the rules, it has mostly been about 10 different disciplines.
The disciplines are as follows:

Big ones (winner gets 10 points):
1d freestyle 3min
2d freestyle 3min
3d freestyle 3min
Bearing freestyle 3min
Vertax freestyle 3min

Small ones (winner gets 5 points):
Monobolo freestyle 2min
Loop freestyle 2min
Most minigenocides 1min
Most vertax genocides 1min
Endurance (most diaboloes in high technique) 1min (but the contestant is allowed to continue as long as the run goes)


After everything is done, the score is calculated and overall winner chosen (this is done by spreadsheet that has been filled with all the results).

Pros and cons of the Finnish format:

Pros:
- Requires broad technical skills concerning diabolo (and has included many that are arguably not even diabolo *con). The title cannot be won by a one trick pony.

Cons:
- The format is really slow, physically hard and time consuming. This year we had 6 competitors and it took 7 hours. There was no audience, and if there had been, they would have probably left after few hours. It is purely about competition with zero crowd pleasing aspects.
- Monobolo and loop freestyles are irrelevant, but you need to take part in them to have a chance in the overall contest. This year the monobolo was won by contestant who improvised and used borrowed equipment.

You want an complex strict way of competing/evaluating, or a rather loose system where judges are given freedom to choose who they prefer.

I answer on the numbers below.

1- Diabolo competition of 3/5 minutes performances, no equipment/plane/number of diabolos limitations. (Optionally with duo) Tricks are pre-prepared and the music is known.
2- Diabolo competitions with several different categories, 1D, 2D, 3D (4 and 5 ), vertax, bearings,... and then a complete evaluation of the whole thing out together.
3- Freestyle competitions/Slams: Players are encourage to improvise their tricks. Obviously short routines are unavoidable and allowed.
4- Diabolo Battles. One on one competitions, no equiment/plane/number of diabolos limitations. This can be single rounds or a complete elimination branch where, for example 16 players compete one on one until there is a champion.
5- Teams versus single player competitions.
6- System of evaluations:
- very specified, like with a click system as used by the FDC, see as an example the yoyo rules where judges have clickers on her hands to count things all the time during the performances (http://iyyf.org/rules/freestyle-rule/) OR
- very loose, judges just choose who was "Better" including many criterias (technique, creativity, difficulty, cleanness, style, stage presence, etc) that they evaluate without noting down, just choosing a winner. Like in the EJC Diabolo Battle, rules here https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLov58giMt1ZGg2ZkRlSTlBclk/view?usp=sharing.
I tend to prefer the loose approach, it is less stressing. What do you think?

1. I really like the idea here. I would maybe add some requirements, so we would not end up judging 1d freestyle against 4d low. Few simple things that need to be in the routine would be enough (For example: High technique with as many diaboloes as possible, any vertax etc.).
2. While i have enjoyed the Finnish competitions for the past years, i think this kind of format has no future. Audience does not care about many different categories. Having categories makes the competition repetative as many contestants go on stage doing almost the same tricks.  Mixing the categories inside the event would make it confusing for the judges.
3. Don't really understand this. Improvisation with diabolo is so hard that doing it in competetive setting does not make sense to me.
4. In the 5th Russian Diabolo Championship i saw really well made battles. If the judges are good enough, this could be a fair way to decide the overall winner. But as in Russia, i think it requires the solo brackets first. The judges need a broad understanding so they can evaluate the different techniques the players are bound to use. (Risk: Any new technique will win, regardless of the actual difficulty level)
5. Single any day. Duo and group battles sound good, but don't see it happening any time soon.
6. I prefer the clickers, having been a judge for yoyo and diabolo, i have noticed that the clickers really help. They also lessen the possibility of getting carried away by one combo, and make it a lot easier for the judges to remember their initial reactions. The less judges need to talk with eachother about the results, the better. (Quite a Finnish thing to say...)



Overall my thoughts on perfect diabolo competition:
- 6 min freestyle with any number or plane with actual diabolos and sticks (no hubstacks, loops or monobolos) [I'm not sure about J-slides or other gimmick sticks yet]
- Four best freestyles go against each other in battles. One round is decided by each contestant, one round by judges. 1min/round
- Final battles for third place and winner could be 2min, or 2 rounds decided by judges in addition of the competitor choices.

[samuli]

I'll join this discussion as We are trying to have similar discussion in Finland in sense that We all agree that We want to make Finnish National Diabolo Contest even better than it already is. Aaro already described the disciplines We have had at our contest since 2011.

As for Diabolo contest history in Finland We founded Finnish diabolo accosiation 19.12.2007 in Tampere with five people (Aaro Kontio, Marko Akkanen, Samuli Männistö (also known as Rauli Katajavuori), Olli Vuorinen and Jussi Jaakkosela. The associations main goal was to promote Diabolo juggling as sport and organize national contest yearly and for that We begin to think of a way that We could define the best diabolo juggler in Finland for real! (that you can't just be one trick pony but really be worth the tittle) So We thought that as for judges it is easier to compare similar things than 3D routine with vertax routine, so We decided to have divisions for all the ways you can play diabolo.

Finnish Diabolo association organized first national contest in march 2009. and dissiplines were following: 1. vertax genocide, 1min 2. 3D 3up piroutettes 3. numbers competition 4. 1D fixed freestyle 3min 5. 2D fixed freestyle 3mi 6. 3D fixed freestyle 2min 7. vertax 3min 8. 1D loop freestyle 2min 9. 2D loop freestyle 2min
On first year We didn't really have overall winner in sense of total score but in the end highest total score got the main trophy, and this is how We ended up having so called overall winner in Finnish national contests.

On 2010 contest We had 1. vertax genocides, 1min 2. 3D 3up piroutettes 3. numbers competition 4. 1D fixed freestyle 3min 5. 2D fixed freestyle 3min 6. 3D fixed freestyle 2min 7. vertax 3min 8. 1D loop freestyle 2min 9. 2D loop freestyle 2min 10. minigenocides, 1min 11. 1D bearing  freestyle 3min 12.  2D bearing  freestyle 3min and competitor chooses 7 that he/she will do and overall score of these 7 is the final score.
And as a after thought this would be quite nice with lot of players but for us as We didn't have too many people taking part it made possible to pick disciplines with less competition and get good overall score, so in the end We didn't continue with this route and for the years 2011 - 2017 We ended up having the Diabolo decathlon! With disciplines as follows: Big ones (winner gets 10 points): 1d freestyle 3min, 2d freestyle 3min, 3d freestyle 3min, Bearing freestyle 3min, Vertax freestyle 3min, Small ones (winner gets 5 points):  Monobolo freestyle 2min, Loop freestyle 2min, Most minigenocides 1min, Most vertax genocides 1min
Endurance (most diaboloes in high technique) 1min (but the contestant is allowed to continue as long as the run goes)
After everything is done, the score is calculated and overall winner chosen (this is done by spreadsheet that has been filled with all the results).

And for the past 2-3 years We have been arguing and talking about how to make the contest even better. I personally have been standing on a side of going even more to IYYF style contest type. And even for quite a long time I was on the idea of ditching the overall winner status totally, but as We have the really good challenge cup touring around Finland. It has felt wrong to kill this tradition so We kept going with the same way.

Now my suggestion for the new contest disciplines here in Finland is as follows.

Overall judging of Championship performance division and freestyles would follow IYYF-contest rules in a way that in Championship performance division cleanliness and performance is the main factor. In short freestyle divisions the scoring is for big, never before seen tricks and hardcore technical skill performance.

execution disciplines: (FIxed diabolo)
1. 1d vertax genocides  1min.
2. 1d mini-genocides 1 min.
3. Xd numbers
Counting just scores, scoring more than others is the main thing here. These would mainly aim for new official contest records. Claiming the title doing it best this year and the biggie would be making the new official Finnish National record. Maybe even the world record like Aaro did this year with endurance. 666 catches with 3D high and also the official Finnish record with 21 catches of 4D

Freestyle divisions: (freestyle 2min?)
4. Mb monobolo (any amount of monbolos with fixed or  bearing)
5. Loopdiabolo (any amount of monbolos with fixed or  bearing)
6. 1d (fixed or  bearing)
7. 2d (fixed  or  bearing)
8. 3d (fixed  or  bearing)
9. vertax freestyle((any amount of monobolos with fixed or  bearing)
On the freestyle divisions the scoring is for big, never before seen tricks and hardcore technical performance.

Championship performance division (7min)
Any amount of diabolos, monobolos, sticks strings style of play is allowed, cleanliness and performance is the main factor. and the 'challenge cup' -trophy would be for winner of this division. but freestyle division winners would be able to use the title winner of division year??

As for now We have the problem with our Finnish national contest that all people just go for the Overall win and even that you would win let's say 2D division, and be the best in Finland with 2D play, it doesn't matter. I believe that change of the rules could bring more players to the game and you could just play your favorite style and rule it if you can. (like yoyo players do) Also even if you wish to Win the main tittle at Championship performance division you don't need to take part in any other divisions if you don't want to.

I hope We can take this road for the our tenth annual Finnish National Diabolo Contest. Then We'll see how it goes and can make adjustments for future. I would love to see IDA, or some other world wide organization coming up and doing the same the IYYF did for Yoyo. Clear set of divisions, clear set of rules for competition with seeding procedure for the World Contest. Meaning that whatever contest and battle is fine but to get seeded to European or World or any big contest you need to pass though smaller contests with the same rule set. Other types are fine but they are kind of useless for getting in to World event. This works really well with YoYo, and I really like the idea making this happen with diabolo too.

MOYO STAGE has the following disciplines in diabolo contest- 1D, 2D, 3D, VD, AD(All you can do), AWD(woman)  and I if I am not wrong, they use judging similar to IYYF-rules.



COMMENTING WIS:
4- Diabolo Battles. One on one competitions, no equiment/plane/number of diabolos limitations. This can be single rounds or a complete elimination branch where, for example 16 players compete one on one until there is a champion.

I can say that I don't really think battle format would serve a good foundation for real contest. Battles can be fun and good for selling products purposes but to determine the best diabolo player or diabolo performance. No.
Bangers and new flashy **** will win, regardless of the actual difficulty level and also being a good lad with judges or having a name already in community makes you a better player automatically.


6- System of evaluations:
- very specified, like with a click system as used by the FDC, see as an example the yoyo rules where judges have clickers on her hands to count things all the time during the performances (http://iyyf.org/rules/freestyle-rule/)

Definitely the IYYF way.. Works super well and is super fair for all contestants, if you play by the rule book and make your contest routine following how to make points by the rules also lessen the possibility of getting carried away by one combo, and make it a lot easier for the judges to remember their initial reactions. The less judges need to talk with each other about the results, the better. (Quite a Finnish thing to say...) Following Aaro here.


+Commenting Aaros words:
2. While i have enjoyed the Finnish competitions for the past years, i think this kind of format has no future. Audience does not care about many different categories. Having categories makes the competition repetitive as many contestants go on stage doing almost the same tricks.  Mixing the categories inside the event would make it confusing for the judges.
Pros:
- Requires broad technical skills concerning diabolo (and has included many that are arguably not even diabolo *con). The title cannot be won by a one trick pony.

Cons:
- The format is really slow, physically hard and time consuming. This year we had 6 competitors and it took 7 hours. There was no audience, and if there had been, they would have probably left after few hours. It is purely about competition with zero crowd pleasing aspects.
- Monobolo and loop freestyles are irrelevant, but you need to take part in them to have a chance in the overall contest. This year the monobolo was won by contestant who improvised and used borrowed equipment.


Audience does not care about many different categories. - Aaro. When We had the contest in Joensuu  and having the Joensuu market square stage in July for 3 days, We have got over 5000 people watching the contest every year between 2012-2016. Audinece have loved the contest and as this year as We couldn't make the event happen in Joensuu people where asking Where the contest is? As it has been one of main events during the summer in Joensuu. So I would say that people have really liked the contest as it has been. They have learnt the names of different contestants, how they play. kind of if betting would be legal in Finland I'm sure there would be betting going on for players in all the disciplines. This year We had the contest in village of 800 people on a day with funeral and market... and I really didn't use much time on advertising the event. (for many reasons) So the audience participation is not because the disciplines We have. These people of Eräjärvi wouldn't have come even if We had promised to give free buckets on entrance. (Free buckets, is really a thing in Finland. Just google it!) And if We change the divisions and rules you don't need to do loop or monobolo or numbers contest to try to win the Championship performance division.

This year the monobolo was won by contestant who improvised and used borrowed equipment. -Aaro / For me this is no proble when the player is so good on the prop that He doesn't need to practice before the contest to win it. It is not his fault, it is just lack of skill from the other contestants. We need to do better to win, or at least I need to and I want to do better. The thing I didn't win is nobody else problem than mine. I sipmly wasn't good enough. It is not Joona's fault that he won. Joona won because he was better on the contest than any other of us taking part the contest.


Even that competitive yoyoing is not all that there is in yoyoing and some of my favourite players don't really do well in yoyo-contest, as they do stuff that the rules don't really let score much, I really enjoy and like how IYYF and Yoyo community have done this and I would like to see Diabolo follow how Yoyo community have done this. If you check videos of the winners of all the WYYC2017 divisions, all the performances are really good and if you check the players who came second or third you'll see that there's no wild judging but the winner truly is a winner. Others aren't bad either and contests are tight, this is why We need good organized system to judge and run these contests, batlling is isn't the way to the peace. And also if We think spintops, that is one division in at EYYC and WYYC, maybe other contests a well. 2010 most of this spintop stuff was, really bad and shaky, but as the time has passed. The stuff that is executed at the spintop division is getting really good. This is also one reason I would really emphasize loop and monobolo divisions to happen in Diabolo contests. I believe this is also a way to make those marginal ways of playing diabolo more popular and make the level go higher in general.

Cheers,

Rauli

[Marko]

Seems to me that past 10 years of contests in Finland have shown that making the rules complicated makes competing difficult for everybody. Last 4 times I’ve been in events both players and organizers have been complaining of how exhausting taking part of organizing one has been. On top of that old players don’t compete or show up at the contest. Even the ones on the association board.

Yes, we have had around 5000 people watching the event but I cannot in good concience say that the merit has been the diabolo contest. Location and time has been optimal for getting audience. I mean that being part of highly marketed set of events right before the biggest rock festival in country and having stage right next to ticket sales booth in main market square might have more to do with the 5000 than our set of rules. Having contest one block away from the main stage did cut our audience to 100-200. I’m happy to hear that people have liked the contest but I believe this would have been the case if they had seen any kind of high level diabolo play.

Now what I’m more worried is the impact the contest has to the community. Not attracting many new players is not a good thing. And if the old players are losing interest then there’s only the 3-6 player core team always playing. If the only reason we play is to see who is best I believe we can do that while sitting down in a pub and asking what people have been working on recently. There has not been any new clubs or groups for practicing diabolo. Not even in Joensuu where we had the big audience. And sadly we have had to close the diabolo club in Tampere for not having any players there.

I don’t believe our decisions on the set of rules will solve the lack of motivated players. But having overly complicated set of rules and exhausting event will definitely work against this goal of getting more people to play diabolo. I hope these would bring more people in than cause old players to lose interest. This is why I would like to see an event with more simple set of rules and for players, judges and organizers.

Contest should be event for everybody, counting in the one trick ponies and one pony tricksters

[7531]

We need time to see what format is the best one.
 For me something like the pao from red bull is not the best one. Diabolo is diabolo, not a breaking dance battle.
 I like the format that you have in Finland or  in asia. 2-3 minutes to do your best tricks

[Wis]

Thank you guys for describing the picture in Finland. It is so interesting how the whole picture changes with more opinions. Also, it is good that Finnish Diabolo Nationals have existed and serve as a reference on the long term impact of the competing format.

I think that my goal is not to determine who is the best player, my top 1 diabolo players list consist of 5 people, so I am not even sure if such thing as 'the best player' exists. I tend to think that my goal with the EJC Diabolo Battle is to promote diabolo, and that players have a competition they enjoy. Then depending on the competition rules, you can, make it so that the most surprising trick wins, or the funniest performer, or the most highest scored along a set of categories.

My main train of thought behind EJC Diabolo Battle:
- Happens in the EJC and should/want to attract attention of other non diabolo jugglers -> Not too long, not too boring
- I want players to participate so I do not put restrictions -> anybody can try to go for the full competition, and win, like Nao did with 1D

Bangers and new flashy **** will win, regardless of the actual difficulty level and also being a good lad with judges or having a name already in community makes you a better player automatically.

Some time back I was afraid of the same thing, but hopefully what you wrote is plainly not true, and that made me happy.
1st year: Kevin, great overall skills
2nd year: Nao, creative and funny with 1 diabolo
3rd year: Robin, great overall skills
4th year: Jack, great overall skills

Contest should be event for everybody, counting in the one trick ponies and one pony tricksters

I like that sentence.

Battles can be fun and good for selling products purposes but to determine the best diabolo player or diabolo performance. No.

Anything can help you to sell products, even a over complicated competition where not even the organizers want to attend, you just need to market it properly.
Actually I think a Diabolo Battle will decide who has been the best at diabolo performance in a diabolo battle format. And I can't think of a better way to decide it.

Diabolo is diabolo, not a breaking dance battle.

Maybe if you explain why a breakdance fits more to a battle format than diabolo I will be able to understand what you mean. Do you maybe mean that breakdance is by nature more competitive than diabolo?

I will comment later, but I am liking the clicks idea as a way to help the judges to relieve themselves from the pressure of having all the decision factors in their minds. They need to remember many things and how they evaluated others. Being a judge is truly hard (I've been told).

My long term goal is also to have a network of worldwide competitions, and that there is a world competition of people that has earn the right via the minor competitions. In my eyes battles fit here, but I would put less with on the overall classification than for more strict and regulated competitions. So for example winning a whole day event would give you 20 points, example, and a battle, 5 points.

I want to keep things open

[fkowarik]

I like the topic but first of all i would like to clarify that i dont like competitions and i dont see diabolo (or juggling in general) as a sport.

From my point of view diabolo is something artistic that you are usually doing on a stage (videos/shows/conventions...) for an audience who you want to impress or make them feel something. If you would like to make diabolo a sport, you should set up a bunch of rules which will restrict your creativity. I think diabolo players would focus only in develop their skills/tricks in order to fit on this path/rules/categories and not be more creative. This could be boring after a while. If we see the WJF, in the first editions we could see Olga and Vova Galachenko breaking records for fun and having a healthy competition but they were not training only for that competition, it just fit their way of juggling (a lot of objects, site swap patterns and endurance). If we see the last editions of WJF i dont know anybody who stayed tune in the channel and watched the all competition, we mostly watched the highlight and thats all what the people want to see, it was/is nice but its boring after a while...

What would be the main aim of a diabolo competition? Apart of choose a winner i think the main aim should be promote the diabolo, I guess all of us we want to see new diabolo players with better skills and new ideas, if we dont promote diabolo no new players will join. From my point of view some kind of competitions may not be healthy for that.

2- Diabolo competitions with several different categories, 1D, 2D, 3D (4 and 5 ), vertax, bearings,... and then a complete evaluation of the whole thing out together.
6- System of evaluations:

In a competition like the number 2 or 6 (described by Wis) the young diabolo players may be forced or pushed to learn tricks/routines that maybe don't fit their styles in order to be able participate, otherwise they will not be/feel competitive or able to participate. We already see that for example with the Asian style, they are doing competitions since a lot of years ago and please dont misunderstood me, they are amazing, however they use to focus so much in get a solid routine for the competitions that i think sometimes it may limit their time to create/develop new styles or kind of tricks. Please notice that i am generalizing and i dont like it, i am just using examples for better understanding.

I was in the national yoyo competition in Spain and it was quite sad for me to see young players on the stage who have crazy ideas, skills and motivation but nobody was looking/supporting them, the rest of yoyo players were practicing their routines or waiting for the yoyo stars,  the yoyo community already knew who would be the winners! it  only depends of the fails of each player on stage because everyone knew already their routines!

1- Diabolo competition of 3/5 minutes performances, no equipment/plane/number of diabolos limitations. (Optionally with duo) Tricks are pre-prepared and the music is known.
3- Freestyle competitions/Slams: Players are encourage to improvise their tricks. Obviously short routines are unavoidable and allowed.
4- Diabolo Battles. One on one competitions, no equiment/plane/number of diabolos limitations. This can be single rounds or a complete elimination branch where, for example 16 players compete one on one until there is a champion.

However in the competitions like number 1, 3, 4 everyone have the same chances to be watched or at least to get the same attention than the rest of participant. Specially in the battles (number 4), a diabolo player who is not the best could be able to beat one diaboloMonster just with few crazy ideas, this will motive more people to create new things, participate and from my point of view this is healthier for the diabolo community which it should be the main aim of the competitions. And the most important its exciting and fun for viewers and participants!  . To watch players for hours doing routines its boring and diabolo players probably would prefer to enjoy the convention/meeting playing or sharing tricks in small groups during this time that sit down and watch... I wonder if all of you see all the videos of every competition... Short formats are always funnier (that what she said... ).

Even RedBull saw the potential on this kind of battle competitions and we already know that redbull is mostly branding exciting competitions for young people, like BMX, Snowboard, skateboard and other extreme sports... (despite of they want that kids start to drink redbull drinks as soon as possible... but this is other story).


I dont think that the best diabolo player exists, equal that i dont think the best guitarist/painter/dancer/juggler... exist.  its true that there are people really good in for example 4 diabolos high but maybe the have a lack of other skills and to create a category for each skill has no sense for me, in few years we will have tons of categories because we will have new things (soon we will have 2d vertax, or 1 vertax 1 horizontal?).
Let just the people enjoy playing and to be honest the we are not so many diabolo player able to move for competitions and less for create many categories... as less rules more people will feel invited to join the competitions 


It is very personal point of view but i would like to know other opinions, please take your time and write! 

Cheers!

[7531]

Maybe if you explain why a breakdance fits more to a battle format than diabolo I will be able to understand what you mean. Do you maybe mean that breakdance is by nature more competitive than diabolo?

I didn t like the prepotent actitudes that you can see in the video of rb. Is like no respect for the tricks that the other person is doing.  Also some people playing 3d and 4d awesome tricks lost...
 I preffer different categories and can be fair for every one, in asia they are doing for years and it seems that works

[Wis]

I understand that:
- you think one on one competition encourages 'lack of respect' -> This is something that I think when you are in the place you realize there is not like that, at all. There is tons respect, everybody is rather afraid of the others, and very humble. Until they get on stage.
- some people with high skills did not win -> yes, but there is every year people with awesome tricks that loses. Most of the times, with multiple diabolos, it is because of drops.

I preffer different categories and can be fair for every one, in asia they are doing for years and it seems that works

What it means to you 'it seems that works'? How do you evaluate it? Have you ever heard of the 'friendly' atmosphere in competitions in Asia??

[samuli]

For me it seems that We are already mixing things up in this discussion. Contests are contests, in sports, people take part in contest to Win with the rules set for that division. like 100m dash, fastest runner wins. Great!. In high jump there's rule that you can only use the force of one leg to jump over the bar, even people would go much higher if it would be allowed to use both legs to jump. So in real life the best high jumper in the world is just best in terms of these rules. Highest jump from one leg, falling to the mattress.  If there would be no mattress to fall, the result would most likely to be different. So if Contest has clear rules We would get the best one out by the rules and divisions the contest has. If the rules of the contest are not clear the results would be more of an result of luck and chance and fortune.  I'd like to see diabolo juggling evolve as sport and as art-thing way. There's space and tacit need for all the ways We play diabolo and it is not away from either side that both happen. Good things comes even from flow art diabolo play and contest sporty diabolo play. No need to pick sides in this fight, because in reality there's no need to fight. 

Then the other issue which is  the aim of promoting the diabolo, I guess all of us we want to see new diabolo players with better skills and new ideas, if we dont promote diabolo no new players will join. Of cource more players means wider scale of ways to play. More the merrier, yes. I think contests can do good bit of promoting for the sprty side of diabolo juggling. There's definitely room for even more contests in different ways for different level players. I believe it would be good to have beginner level ladder contests at school yards just to get kids into diabolo. beginner battles as well as RBPAO-battle, National contests would be good like European contests as well. But if We really think promoting diabolo to build bigger diabolo community. We should remember that yoyo-community was built by toy company and the main purpose for them in building a community and have contests was to sell their toys (Yo-Yo's)  Similar thing is happening now with Kendama (main people promoting Kendama are companies that sell Kendamas) but on the other hand they are really building a community and culture on the same time. So I would be happy that companies the sell and make diabolos would do their part in promoting this toy they sell (diabolo). And if I think bit more about what is the difference with yoyo, kendama and diabolo, I think the main difference is from where these cultures have grown. Yoyo and Kendama have different backgrounds as well, but both have gone big because of the toy-company marketing, both have contests and both are marketed as a skill toy. Diabolo on the other hand is marketed as a juggling prop. And at least in Europe the diabolo 'culture' is part of the juggling scene. Diabolo in Europe isn't established itself as a skill toy like yoyo and kendama. In Asia it seems to have different history and different culture around it. Contests seem to be clear part of this culture they have there. It also seems that Asian toy companies who manufacture and sell diabolos also market this Diabolo toy as a skill toy instead as a silly and easy to learn juggling prop like European companies do. Oh I just rembered that in Europe jugglers take part in volley club contests and fightnightcombat. Good contests and The best team in Volley club is the best team in Volley club. Most likely the jugglers there are also pretty good jugglers, they can't claim that they are the best jugglers in the world but the can claim that they have the tittle for best team in Volley club for the year. Same goes with the best 3 club combat fighter. WJF contest works fine as well. If you check the 5ball routines, it is quite easy to say who wins by the set of rules WJF have. (You got to list 15 moves with 5 balls, have a one combo or break it down in smaller sequences. But in the end cleanest execution of the most difficult combinations will win the WJF-tittle. Fair enough?) 

[Icebox]

Not really responding to anybody in particular here, but here goes.

I think diabolo doesn't really lend itself particularly well to a competitive format, but if I had to choose a format to participate in it would be in a format that has multiple, well-defined disciplines. Moreover, it would be something more akin to what acting/performance awards shows do where they award a winner in a particular category and that's the end of it - I think that having a competition that only awards an 'overall' champion could discourage people from competing because they don't consider themselves enough well-rounded to stand a chance in a measurement of overall skill. To take myself as an example, I think I could hold my own in a 1D exclusive category but I know that I would fall far short in an overall competition.

A competition that can accommodate diaboloists that are specialists in a particular discipline while perhaps having a separate competition for all-rounders - similar to how the pentathlon and decathlon work within track and field competitions - would be my preferred competitive format, but I do acknowledge the time resources such a competition would require, making it rather impractical.

[Wis]

No need to pick sides in this fight, because in reality there's no need to fight.

Well, in my eyes we are trying to learn which is the preferred format for current players. Because there is a IDA initiative and it would be nice to put the effort on the alternatives that satisfies more people. I do not see it as a fight. Taking into account that we want to attract non-players, I guess still we need to get the current ones to play and look appealing.

It also seems that Asian toy companies who manufacture and sell diabolos also market this Diabolo toy as a skill toy instead as a silly and easy to learn juggling prop like European companies do.

Some things that people may not know:
- In Asia, Diabolo is at popularity levels of some popular sports. In schools you can choose basketball, or football as additional activity, but also diabolo! There are teams, different ages, trainers, so a huge amount of people that follows it.
- In Europe the amount of diabolos sold for beginners/kids is a massive part of all the juggling shops income.

One comment from my side on competitions divided in categories, if there is not an all allowed category there is a part of a juggler you may find harder to judge, his/her ability to interconnect  different techniques, this is always interesting to me. The amount of time spent on each, for example 1d, 2d, 3d, vertax if you need to perform 5 minutes, the different selection of tricks, etc.