Author Topic: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide  (Read 25337 times)

Mick Lunzer

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« on: May 17, 2006, 05:02:54 AM »
I was listening listing to a documentry on the horrors of real genocide in Germany, Africa and the Middle East., and it occured to me that "Genocide" might be a lousy name for a such a cool diabolo trick. I used to say to **** 'em if they can't take a joke. Is it a joke? Now I am not so sure.

    I used to think "Suicide" was cool name for the trick. When people first started doing them it seemed difficult and a little risky. 15 years later its a basic trick and considered easy, hardly worth a deadly name.  Some of us have friends that have committed Suicide. Is it a good name for a diabolo trick? I don't know, but I do know when I teach young children the tricks I call them "Let goes, Fly aways, or stick releases", I got tired of having to explain to the parents later why there children are doing things called genocides or suicides.  :oops:

I think people most people understand it is just a name for the trick. And we mean no harm or offense. I have used the terms myself for 20 some years. I am not particularly offended by........................ well, much of anything.
On the other hand if someone named a trick "Date Rape" or "Woman Beater." I would not be amused. Yet is Genocide less of an offense than date rape?

I would be interested to hear the community's thoughts on this.
Does it matter?
Does anyone care?
Have you encountered someone in the public that was offended?
As a growing art, what do we want to present to the world?

By the way if Donald Grant changed the names and reprinted his books, I would still buy them all over again.

Love to hear the debate.

-Mick

Hershey

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2006, 06:11:20 AM »
I teach elementary Physical Education, and I call suicides "stick releases"  I call the Genocide the "ultimate stick release."  Duicides have become "Double stick release."  The only problem is that kids go on diabolotricks.com or in a book and see the real name and then use the real names with each other.  It does open up an interesting dialogue for me and my students.  It becomes a teachable moment.

eggy900

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2006, 07:19:22 AM »
back in the day when i'd exclaim 'I've just pulled off a double genocide' it turned some heads and there was explaining that needed to be done.

good post btw, i never thought we'd get round to discussing the moral implications of diaboloing

TimEllis

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2006, 02:41:15 PM »
I was always curious as to why they were named as such.  But I must ask, what is a Homicide?  The trick...   Or is that just in the title for kicks?
Keeping the world safe from boring people,

Tim Ellis

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Arjan

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2006, 04:02:56 PM »
A catchy name for a trick is easy. But we don`t actually mean what we say when we say: I pulled a triple genocide into duicide with a fast suicide after. Then we sound like serial killers, and speaking for myself, I`m not.

The same thing: when people curse and scold, they most of the time don`t even know what they are saying.

(Xtreme)Sports or arts: a lot diciplines use words like these mentioned above to name "hard" tricks. Diabolo is not a Xtreme sport, more just an art. Sounds like we only want to be "bad" boys, or girls offcourse. But there is no wrong intention behind it.  
The trick will impress, and the name aswell.
I find the genocide a briljant name for the trick, credits to Eric.

tomangleberger

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2006, 04:49:08 PM »
I'm glad this has come up because it really bothers me.

We are lucky enough to have the leisure time and disposable income to mess around with diabolos. Meanwhile there are Darfur survivors living with memories of murder, rape and forcible expulsion from their homes who are living in refugee camps. And their are Holocaust survivors still dealing with their unspeakably terrible memories. The least we can do is not make light of their very real encounter with genocide.

I say change the name.

Matt_

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2006, 05:41:20 PM »
yeah, go change the name. then are you doing a hyperloop or a sprinkler? vertax or excalibur? let's have multiple names for everything, we'll be totally confused, but at least we'll be PC! and that's what juggling is all about, right, being PC? all jugglers just want to be mainstream, right? we all want to be recognized be society and appreciated, don't we?

a lot of words mean two things. as long as you realize:

1. a diabolo genocide is a juggling trick
2. a diabolo genocide is in no way related to a human genocide

then you will be alright. all you need to do is educate yourself. i'm sick of people euphemizing words because idiots turn it into something else. what do a lot of people wear underneath their shirts when they go to work? yeah, a wife beater. i'm pretty sure that everyone understands that when you're talking about buying a wife beater, you're talking about buying a shirt, and not about beating your wife.

come on people, have common sense. it's juggling. it's not the end of the world.

and you know what? maybe you can kill two birds with one stone by calling it genocide. you teach the kids what a diabolo genocide is, and then you teach them what a real genocide is. knowledge is power!

Jakob

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2006, 05:54:17 PM »
I don't see any logic in changing the name, and as Matt_ said, Plenty of things have more than one meaning
//Jakob

busk

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2006, 06:21:54 PM »
there are people that also says ''genoside'' instead of ''genocide'' and so on..and usually they are from finland i think

tommi

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2006, 06:39:56 PM »
Yeah, thats just because we suck at spelling.. :lol:

Mick Lunzer

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Genocide
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2006, 06:56:08 PM »
I have been told since this post that the WJF would not allow the terms genocide and suicide during the ESPN 2 broadcasts. Is this true?
Maybe the media will be changing the names for us.

To Matt. and Jakob
Thanks for your response.
I do believe this debate is common sense. We may be setting a precedent for our art and sport. I am not a PC advocate. You don't know me personally so you will have to  trurst me on this. I am all about freedom of speech.  
To your point.  Now Genocide means two things. so does wife beater. I agree that people understand the difference especially all of us.  Should we continue  on this line and make Child Molester or Nigger killer mean two things?  Both are equally offenseive as genocide to me.
Mother ****er might be a cool name for a trick, but does it promote our art/sport?

Am I saying we should change the name? I  don't know, thats why I started this post. If we do as a community decide it's time for a change, I don't  honestly believe changing the names wold cause mass confusion for diabolists.  My common sense says we all deserve more credit than that.

Keep em comming I would love to hear from more of you

-Mick

frank0072

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2006, 07:16:52 PM »
very interesting topic. Since english is not my motherlanguage I am not at all offended by the words suicide and genocide. I have even been depressed for a couple of years, walking around with suicide on my mind. It does not offend me because I find it a funny name for a trick that is lethal when you can't pull it off propperly yet.
Genocides are different I think. It's not a very common thing, and it's not a thing to laugh about. Still, it's only a word for a trick that can potentially kill a few people if performed with razorblade sticks and barbed wire string...

Well, I don't know. These were just my thoughts. I would agree to change the names, if it really offends people. But, there has to be an exeptionally good substitute for the names...
some people think they are better because they can do something better

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

fredo

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2006, 07:33:04 PM »
Using trick names like that isn't a problem for me...Of course, as it has been said before, it's because I don't live in an english-speaking country - so no one cares about a name or simply doesn't think about it...and speaking for myself, I teach it to all little children with these names and I have got no ethnic problems, as I would never refer it to a human suicide/genocide...

EDIT - btw, what is a human genocide???

Mick Lunzer

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Genocide.............
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2006, 07:41:38 PM »
One reason I am curious about this topic is because of a personal experience. About ten years ago I invented a series of yoyo tricks.
I competed with them, the main trick was put in a book and a couple of yo yo magizines.   I had to have a name for it and I wanted to call it something clever. I called it Buddah's Revenge.  I thought it was cool cause the trick repeated itself (reincarnated) and I thought it was funny because buddists are pacificts and would never look for revenge. I didn't think much of the name, but the trick and the name caught on.
The trick spawned many children. Buddha's Bounce, Black Buddah, White budda's,  Budda's Fury, ect...

About a year later a Japanese man, aproached me and asked me why I named it Buddah'a revenge. I told him that I thought it was funny. He told me he was a Buddist and he did not think it was funny. Neither did a lot of other Buddists from Japan where yoyos are exremely popular.

I apologized and said I meant no offense. He said "I understand and it's too late to do anything abot it now. Everyone will call it that now, there is no going back and it's a little sad, but" he smiled "Buddists have a sense of humor too."

It really is just a yoyo trick, not the end of the world. It did make me think about how we name our tricks and who we alienate.
I wanted a cool name for my trick, I didn't want to offend a religion or nation. I am glad they are pacifists.

So that is a little backround of why I think this debate is important. When our art grows we all benefit. Should our terms be inclusive or do we say Screw you if you don't have a sense of humor?

By the way I am thinking of calling my new yoyo trick "Shiva's Crucifiction on Haunakah"

-Mick

Mick Lunzer

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Genocide
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2006, 07:44:57 PM »
Fredo

Human Genocide is the murder of an entire people, Killing off an entire race or ethnic group.

Ceri-Anne

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2006, 07:47:53 PM »
I don't agree at all that trick names like those mentioned aren't offensive in non-English countries. Generally speaking, Dutch people speak and understand the English language pretty well, so very many people will understand the words "suicide" and "genocide". Perhaps even because they're none-native speakers, they will misunderstand it and think you're talking about something else than a diabolo trick.

I myself am not offended by these trick names. But I have met some people who were looking at me in a very weird way when I told them that my suicide attempts weren't very successful yet or that I had pulled off my first genocide. As said before, when you're teaching, and children (and their parents) are involved, I'd prefer using different names. That way, you won't be blamed. :wink:  :P

Anyway, no need to change the names, but be aware when and to who you're using them.

Chiok

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2006, 08:04:12 PM »
@ Tim Ellis: A homocide was an old skool trick when a spectator held an object like a cigarette or newspaper in their mouth and you did a suicide to knock it out.  It's the potential to hit someone other than yourself.

An interesting discussion.  The name was not derived for corporate gain (I don't think) so things like politically correct names and such were not an issue.  But then mistakes are made, what does SEGA say to the Italians?  I believe its a name that has come about from a general concensous where people seem satisfied.

I think "stick release" has become the norm for describing the trick to todays society because things have changed and people aren't as opened minded as before.  I agree with Matt_ however that you either take it or leave it and people can decide to show their own levels of tolerance.  I think we all know when a person has malicious intentions so otherwise, let's all be cool and open!

Good discussion though Mick.

(does "duicide" also drum up anti-semetic thoughts? [not the intention though I don't think])

Chiok
www.gravityvomit.co.uk - Gravity pulls down, we throw up.
University of Bath Juggling and Circus Skills

Jakob

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2006, 08:10:39 PM »
Quote from: Ceri-Anne
I'd prefer using different names. That way, you won't be blamed. :wink:  :P
Yes .. give them animal names :D a guy from my class new Forced sun as "the rabbits escape over the fence"  :lol:

(This is NOT an attempt to get the names changes, just a funny image in my head)
//Jakob

Arjan

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2006, 09:56:38 PM »
Okay obviously when names been giving to tricks, and they integrated in the scene there is no way to change back. But why should we? Come on get some sense of humor.

Or would you like to hear instead of genocide: diabolo throw due to fast stickrelease, stick release makes a revolution to catch the diabolo in a wrap.

Ceri-Anne

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2006, 10:01:57 PM »
Quote from: Arjan
Okay obviously when names been giving to tricks, and they integrated in the scene there is no way to change back. But why should we? Come on get some sense of humor.

True, it's integrated, use the words, I don't care, I'm not offended. I just focussed on the (in my opinion) wrong idea that non-English people don't understand the words "suicide" or "genocide".

 

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