Author Topic: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide  (Read 25340 times)

tomangleberger

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2006, 03:13:19 AM »
One reason I never brought this up before is that I knew a lot of folks wouldn't take it seriously. And that's what's happening.

Being told to "lighten up" "it's just a name" or "get a sense of humor" would be fine if the trick was called almost anything else.

Frankly, no one should have a sense of humor when it comes to the subject of genocide.
The concern here is that we're using a horrible word casually. And thus the word loses its power. Plus, we disrespect people who are the victims of real genocides past and present.

 Truthfully though the word has already lost its power. We learned months ago about the genocide in Darfur and George Bush still hasn't done a damn thing about it.

JGherkin

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2006, 07:47:55 AM »
I've read, understood and accepted the majority of arguments put forward here, both for and against the socially sensitive trick names.  But, surely the most important one I've picked up on is that none of these tricks we were originally talking about were named maliciously.  We did not call the genocide the genocide because we wanted to create a link between that trick and the extinction of a race or ethnic group.

Language is merely a tool created by us for describing our environment, our surroundings and events.  The same words are often used to refer to completely different things and this is where the power of context comes in.  Take the english spoken language, knight and night sound exactly the same, now say somebody dressed up as a knight and slaughtered loads of people, undoubtably their friends and family would associate this kind of event with the concept of a knight, does that mean to avoid upsetting them when we're talking about nighttime we change the word used to describe this time of day because they are essentially the same word when spoken?

My point here is that you have to take these things in the context their given, now if somebody pulled off a genocide in front of the persecuted race in Darfur of course it would be unacceptable to yell out "YES!! I finally succeeded with my attempts of genocide!".  This is adding yet another context to our language, now you have a term being used in an unrelated context but in a completely inappropriate situational context..

So, going back to the fact that our language is simply used as a means to describe our surroundings, environment and events, I feel it is acceptable to use these unrelated terms in a situation seperate from those in which the mention of the word would obviously cause harm or grief of some sort.  The only harm it is possible to cause is in the misunderstanding of the way in which we use the terms, in which case simple education of the history behind the names should be far more applicable than changing the term completely.

Hope you all can see what I was trying to put across here even though I may have got myself caught up a little and confused various matters I was bringing up lol.  But this is my point of view for you all, enjoy..

EDIT: O and about the sense of humour thing, I don't think that is what is necessarily required as describing it in this way does put across an element of disrespect.  As opposed to a sense of humour to deal with this I would say people more need a sense of understanding of both our meaning behind the name and also of the very nature of language and its purpose within human society.  Sure, the emotions associated with a given subject can transfer to the word itself but this is where they should stop, instead of transferring them to an unrelated subject as well.

Matt_

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2006, 06:52:20 PM »
Quote from: tomangleberger
Frankly, no one should have a sense of humor when it comes to the subject of genocide.
The concern here is that we're using a horrible word casually.


then what should we do? cower under the voracious power of a word? i've known what a genocide is for years, and i certainly don't want that here in our nation, but when i learned how to do this trick, i didnt even associate it.

it's like videogames and violence. is it wrong to kill people? the general consensus among the world's peoples is yes, it is. but we do it in videogames all the time, right? so does that mean videogames are evil because they let you do a hideous act? as long as you realize that a videogame is not real life, you'll be fine. same thing with these words for tricks. as long as you realize that a diabolo genocide is not the genocide of a nation, you should be alright.

if you dont realize that, you are a child. when i mention a ****, what do you think of? perhaps i can **** my gun, or i'm talking of a male chicken. if you think of a elephant, then your brain is on the wrong track. in fact, there are many normal words that are vulgar slang. but does that mean your children shouldn't be exposed to things like that? like i said, as long as you can realize the difference between two words, you'll be ok.

Mr_Mistoffelees

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2006, 07:00:35 PM »
I'm not going to write another essay, so just a quick question here, to do with diabologists, and diabolists.  I think the first = us, in the sense of "juggling" with the diabolo.  The second is those that worship the devil.  Diabologists take part in diabology.  Saying this, what do diabolists do?  Diaboly?  Cos that just doesn't sound right to me.  Are both diabology?

EDIT: diabology noun. The study of the Devil and his role in religion, culture, and psychology.

So it's yet another case of bow and bow.  One to be what an archer uses, or a bow-tie, and the other to take a bow.  Isn't english wonderful...?

fadge

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2006, 07:52:32 PM »
The english language is a bit odd at times isn't it. seeing as there is an infinite ammount of words that could be made why decide to make words have two meanings. But what the hell, we can't go re-writing the dictionary now can we.

fadge

Chiok

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2006, 11:27:41 PM »
When my fianceĆ© first heard me talking about a "duicide" to a friend, she thought it was a fairly unsubtle word to be using.  However I can understand the etemology or "genocide" in terms of the diabolo move.  All from "suicide" and then "duicide" or "duo" then "genocide" for the ultimate.  If it really bothered the person that named it, they probably would have named it differently (like "ultimate suicide" as was suggested).  But it has a degree of logic behind it, not malice.

As for taking the power from the word, I think the word could never describe the ordeals experienced by the victims so the word has no power in my mind.  It's similar to how I believe racism is given power by those who won't talk about it or avoid it.  

Again, interesting responses by everyone.

Chiok
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William

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Hitler for WJF champion 2007!!
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2006, 06:08:17 AM »
Some people are going to start thinking Hitler was a great Diaboloist.. :roll:
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Matt_

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Re: Hitler for WJF champion 2007!!
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2006, 06:57:53 AM »
Quote from: Willzy
Some people are going to start thinking Hitler was a great Diaboloist.. :roll:


you'd be an idiot to make that association based on the name of a trick.

William

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« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2006, 12:11:02 PM »
Quote from: Matt_
Quote from: Willzy
Some people are going to start thinking Hitler was a great Diaboloist.. :roll:


you'd be an idiot to make that association based on the name of a trick.

Indeed. But with all this talk about trick names and their problems.. I don't think that its a big deal, If people make a funny expression when you tell them that you failed your suicide attempt or whatever, Just explain to them that its only a Diabolo trick! Its that simple and there wasn't really any need for all this talk on it. Well, some people might of thought that it was necessary but everyone has their own opions, as we all already know..
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

Matt_

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2006, 05:09:07 PM »
wait wait wait, i need to make something clear. do you people REALLY shout out "ARGH I MISSED MY SUICIDE ATTEMPT!" or something like that? because from what i've heard, people are trying to make "excuses" for saying something about doing a suicide, which is....ridiculous.

i've diaboloed a lot for other people, in front of other people, and around other people. and i never say what the trick names are, that's just pointless. if people ask, i tell them. and you know what? i've never had any offense taken by people when i tell them the names of tricks. ever.

tomangleberger

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2006, 06:56:33 PM »
Quote from: Matt_
i've diaboloed a lot for other people, in front of other people, and around other people. and i never say what the trick names are, that's just pointless.


At least we can agree on something! Can't stand hearing a juggler list his tricks. "And here's Mills Mess..."


But I'm not really worried about offending other people. I simply find the word "genocide" repugnant to me personally, sort of like Norbi's sig.

frank0072

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2006, 07:53:14 PM »
I agree with people too that it is pointless to name your tricks in front of people. When I 'perform' I just do some tricks and blow them away :p, no need to tell them what I did exactly and how it's called, they won't understand anyways.
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diplodicai

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Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2006, 05:37:32 AM »
Changing the name of a trick isn't going to change the rest of the world or erase the past. Making an association between flipping what to most is a giant egg cup off a string bears no relation to mass murder and combat zones. It is self evident. Changing a term used in a completely different context is irrelevant.
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onewheeldave

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Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2007, 01:43:20 AM »
I stumbled across this thread on a search for something else, nut it's an issue I'd been thinking of starting a thread on so it's good to see it's been discussed before.

Also good to see that others feel as uncomfortable as I do about using terms like 'suicide' or 'genocide' when doing workshops for children.

That's not because I'm under the delusion that these terms were created with any malicious intent- I know that no offense was meant by those who coined the terms.

Nevertheless, I'm still never going to use the term 'genocide' to describe a diabolo trick to a group of primary school kids.

For 'suicide' I use 'stick release', partly cos there's always a chance that a kid in the group may have had a relative commit suicide, partly cos, personally, i think 'stick release' is also a lot more descriptive of the move.

'Genocides' never come up, cos I can't do them :)

Having said that, I'm happy for diabolists to use those terms and, when amongst diabolists, I often use them myself, so I wouldn't go for a PC approach of trying to bar use of the terms.

But i think it's only fair that it's recognised that, in some circumstances, there are issues with use of those terms and hopefully a welcoming approach to alternatives like 'stick release'.

If, during a workshop, a kid pointed out that the trick I'm calling a 'stick release' is one he/she thought was called a suicide, I'd be happy to say that 'yes', 'suicide' is the traditional name for the trick, but, given the other meaning of the term and its potential for causing upset, that I personally prefer the alternative name of 'stick release'.

When it comes to 'genocide', personally I'm not going to get into a discussion of that with primary school kids, I think the term 'genocide' for a diabolo trick is innapropriate- I understand that it's simply an extension on the 'suicide' theme, but, given that we're adults, I would like to think that the originators of the term could have had a bit more sensitivity.

But I guess that those of us who live in a part of the world where adults have the luxory of spending free-time diabolo-ing, don't appreciate the reality of the term 'genocide' in the way that those less fortunate do.

Nevertheless, it's established now and it's not likely to go away, so I'm OK with it being used by those who've adopted it.

I also refuse to refer to 'cigar boxes' as 'cigar boxes' (in workshops with children), on the grounds that the modern props have nothing to do with cigars and, cos I don't want to associate circus skills with smoking.

However, i'm not entirely happy with the term 'juggling boxes' either, so any suggestions are welcome :)


Shinta

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Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2007, 10:31:52 AM »
Interesting thread, I've always wondered why these tricks are called this way, if it was any reference to life or if the "creators" of the tricks just thought it was an appropriate name.

I have always used the term "suicide" when i do them and i have had no problems so far, but a kid came up to me and asked "suicide? why is it called that way? did the maker(yes, he said MAKER) of the name kill himself?".

I was stunned by that question, packed my diabolo and went away.

It's disturbing how children who have no experience in diabolo remember of these things when they hear the names for the first time.

I call them stick-releases when I'm doing diabolo in front of little kids or just people who have no experience in diabolo whatsoever, and use the term "suicide"(and other names related to suicides) when I'm practicing with experienced people.

A rename right now will cause confusion among the "older" diaboloists since they are used to those names, and we would have to change the names on books and websites as well.

In my opinion: use "suicide" when talking to people who are used to it, call it "stick release" or something related to the trick when teaching children or just showing how it's done.

William

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Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2007, 11:10:51 AM »
The person probably didn't put much though into it. At the time it was thought, of the trick probably seemed like an insane 'suicidal' trick.
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

onewheeldave

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Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2007, 01:04:45 PM »
Interesting thread, I've always wondered why these tricks are called this way, if it was any reference to life or if the "creators" of the tricks just thought it was an appropriate name.

I have always used the term "suicide" when i do them and i have had no problems so far, but a kid came up to me and asked "suicide? why is it called that way? did the maker(yes, he said MAKER) of the name kill himself?".

I was stunned by that question, packed my diabolo and went away.

It's disturbing how children who have no experience in diabolo remember of these things when they hear the names for the first time.

I call them stick-releases when I'm doing diabolo in front of little kids or just people who have no experience in diabolo whatsoever, and use the term "suicide"(and other names related to suicides) when I'm practicing with experienced people.

A rename right now will cause confusion among the "older" diaboloists since they are used to those names, and we would have to change the names on books and websites as well.

In my opinion: use "suicide" when talking to people who are used to it, call it "stick release" or something related to the trick when teaching children or just showing how it's done.

We live in a culture with a high suicide rate, so it is likely that one or two of the children in any group are going to have a member of their family/extended family/family friend who's killed themselves and, to them, 'suicide' applied to a diabolo trick is going to sound a bit darker.

We also get a fair number of immigrants in schools and, particularly in the case of asylum seekers, the word 'genocide' is going to be bad because either they or their family could well be in this country precisely because they were the intended victims of a real genocide.

Personally I disagree that 'stick release' is going to cause confusion amongst 'older' diabolists, unlike 'suicide', 'stick release' is a pretty descriptive trick.

Even if it does cause a bit of confusion amongst older diaboloists, I prefer that to causing genuine pain to a 8 year old whose cousin killed themselves last month, wondering why his/her circus skills tutor is going on about suicides.

Thanks for posting your example- as circus skills instructors dealing with large classes, with little time to do anything than teach the skills , we rarely get to know what kids really feel about use of these terms.

OhDearMoshe

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Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2007, 02:44:39 PM »
Well there is a degree of where and when to use the names. Most of the adult world would realize that its just the name of a trick and no offense is meant. However I also agree with when dealing with the younger generation some for of discretion is applied.

A few weeks ago (Oh I'm going to get slaughtered for this) me and my friend were putting on an act of dueling Diabolo'ists. Anyway we would have one person do a trick then the other person would make a witty remark about what the other person did. Anyway one of the tricks was a Mini Gen and the remark was "Oh, a Mini Genocide. Aptly named for removing what little audience you had built up!". This could be considered a bit of a bad taste joke and therefore a bit out of place and would be quite cruel to some of the audience(The Witty remarks have since been removed from our piece especially as the theme of the show we were going for was meant to be world peace).
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William

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Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2007, 11:41:35 AM »
Simply call a Genocide an "Off string stick release" unless you have a better idea.

Slightly Off Topic:
This could be considered a bit of a bad taste joke and therefore a bit out of place and would be quite cruel to some of the audience(The Witty remarks have since been removed from our piece especially as the theme of the show we were going for was meant to be world peace).

If you want to do something like that (competition) Have a look at Antonin and Erik's section in Diabology- "Baguettes et Diabolos" They do a similar thing as in they do a trick then look at the other with an expression like "Yeah, try and beat that!" So you don't even need to say anything vocally.
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

jaigoda

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Re: Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2007, 06:04:57 PM »
I would agree that around children the term "stick release" would be more appropriate, but if you're around other adults or diaboloists, why wouldn't you just say "suicide?" Anyone sensible would know that it's just a trick name. And anyway, when are you going to go around saying "suicides own!" or something along those lines? Also, there are tons of other things that use "suicide" for their names. A mix of different fountain drinks, and one-man relay races or whatever (run to first line, run back, run to second line, run back, etc.) immediately come to mind. And I understand that genocide might be a little sensitive for a trick, but I think most people would understand that it's nothing more than a trick. If you need to explain why it was named that, so be it; that's 15 seconds of your life educating someone.

 

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