Genocide, Suicide, Homicide

[Matt_]

Should we continue  on this line and make Child Molester or Nigger killer mean two things?  Both are equally offenseive as genocide to me.
Mother ****er might be a cool name for a trick, but does it promote our art/sport?

you just have to think, well where can i draw the line? how do you feel about genocide (armenian peoples in 1915, perhaps) compared to hmm, the holocaust? there is no trick called the Holocaust but there could be...

there is a trick in club juggling called the "oh****". it's when you catch a club on the wrong end, quickly say "oh ****" and then switch it back. obviously, we can see that's a swear word, and most kids arent gonna be like "hey mom, check out 4 club continuous oh****s!" i remember when i originally saw this trick by Matt Hall, it was in high school, and during class. he just called them "oh darns". makes sense, right?

i think that in society, we give little importance to the specific terms suicide, homicide, and genocide (duicide isnt even a real word, by the way). you hear of suicide and homicide on the daily news, its not a big deal. honestly, i believe that those are fairly common and tame words in the american vernacular. same with my wife beater example, everyone knows what it is.

i guess my point is that all of the -cide words that we use in diabolo have been heard so much by the public that we are desensitized. almost no one reacts to the use of genocide in a juggling context. i'm not saying to take every single swear word possible and try to make a secret meaning for it in juggling, nor am i saying that we should try to make juggling as offensive as possible. these terms for tricks are old, man, its not like someone made these up last week. the -cide suffix has come to mean some sort of stick release, so that's the way it is. i think that in the future, when inventing new tricks, you should try to make something cool but not extreme or boundary pushing. look at Sean's trick of the week a while back, "the propellor". thats a pretty modest name. it has stick releases, but he didnt call it like "deicide" or anything.

i do wonder though, how many people would be offended if i called a new trick the Deicide...most people dont even know what that means, yet if i did, im sure they'd be much more offended at that than suicide  

[eggy900]

this topic has exploded!

i don't think it would be possible to change the name of a trick, probably less than 10% of diaboloers use this forum so an official announcement here would be no good,

to change it; all diabolo books dvds and videos would have to be edited and and a new disclaimer would have to be provided with new diabolo purchases. which just isn't feasible for manufacturers etc

and even if it was 'officially' changed people would still call it a genocide.

[Jakob]

Hasn't this gone to far enough?
In case not: Here is a list of potential Diabolo-trick-names  

[nicoli]

how about we just start abreviating it to a G, like with mini-G. diabolists would know what it meant and outsiders wouldn't get offended. Also, its a simple enough change that i think it might catch on.

[Mr_Mistoffelees]

i do wonder though, how many people would be offended if i called a new trick the Deicide...most people dont even know what that means, yet if i did, im sure they'd be much more offended at that than suicide

I agree with this, they would be much more offended.  Also, the trick would be associated with the name of the black metal band "Deicide", which I guess could be where you thought of the name from?  If we look at an example of their song title "Kill The Christians" then it's obvious that deicide would likely be offensive to many people, as it would be associated.

[seán_]

This topic came up on Jongle a while back,

This were two of  my comments I would like to add to this topic

(clip my very poor french)

Suicide (shortened from attempted suicide)
Armicide
Stickocide
Legocide
Duocide
Omegacide (cradle to duocide)
Slowicide (usually slow suicide)
Flipcide (like a genocide but catch the handstick before the diabolo lands)
Whipcide (like flipcide but catch the diabolo with a whip catch)
Genocide
Overcide (simillar to a genocide but catch the diabolo from above)
Mini Genocide
Tomicide

Plusieurs de ces tours ont été inventés par Robert Biegler, Bruce Wilson, Donald Grant entre autres. Tous tours excepté le Tomocide et peut-être le mini g ont été inventés avant 1995


Seán

What does génocyraptor mean?

As has been mentioned above there is a reason behind the name and it isn't meant to be disrespectfull.
Genocide has been the name of this trick for 10 years. It does not seem to have problem before, I dont see why it should be a problem now.
A bit of common sense when you talk of it might be needed (such as with your grandmother). potentially shorten the name if it troubles you to geno ('Genno') and Mini Genocide to MiniG but to change the name completly leads to confussion and is in itself disrespectfull to the person who named the trick as it could be also seen as an attempt to claim the trick.
There is a reason behind the naming of the trick and it follows the tradition of naming that particular family of tricks that include (see above the list that would not translate very well. All those tricks except the Tomocide and maybe the mini g were invented and named before 1995)
Many of these tricks were invented by Robert Biegler, Bruce Wilson, Donald Grant amongst others

and

In diabolo it is slightly different, I believe that suicide got the name, in part, from the english phrase to do something risky as in
'it would be suicidal to try that' at the time to risk letting go of one handstick would be 'suicidal'.

To throw the diabolo and catch it with a swinging stick and string (as in a genocide) would be such an extremely risky thing to do that it required a name, related to a word ending in 'cide' and seen to be an extreme thing. Hence an extreme trick and an extreme name but as a play on words that the British like so much.

This is the explanation I have heard, I will try and talk to some people who were around at the time who might have further knowlege to see If my understanding is correct.

Donald and I talked about this a bit ago, he could give you a definitive answer to the naming (mines off but not in spirit) It wasnt meant to be an offensive name, just a powerfull name for powerfull tricks

how about we just start abreviating it to a G, like with mini-G. diabolists would know what it meant and outsiders wouldn't get offended. Also, its a simple enough change that i think it might catch on.

Not for me thankyou. I'm happy with what it has been called for over a decade

[Mick Lunzer]

Great thoughts all around!

Matt, Good coments on the -cide suffix, Thanks

I don't think something is inherintly good just because it has been around for ten years. I am still neither for or against the name changes, but to argue against change because of longevity or difficulty seems well.. weak. Check out Gahndi  or Lincon on this one.

Still looking for answers on two questions

Did ESPN ban the names for broadcast?

Do the names hurt or support our art or are they irrelevent.

I talked to a couple of parents at the circus school today. It mattered to them a lot.

Are there other sports that have delt with this? Skate boarding or Bmx for example?

-Mick

[seán_]

I'm not saying it is inheritently good because it has been around for ten years. I'm saying that the etymology of the cide named tricks is a sound one full of puns and references.
Taken in isolation or if an issue is made of it you could garner a more emotional response than I have came across.

Does it hurt our sport/art/thing? Not necessarily.
Could it hurt our sport/art/thing? It could if the issue is forced.

On the Skateboarding/bmx front, I've been out of the scene for a while but I do recall these examples

Skateboarding-
Sex change: A kickflip with a body varial.
Bastard Plant: A backside boneless to fakie. -we just didnt mention these to our parents
Christ Air: Bs air, nose grab both feet of and extended in the shape of a crucifix, some trouble with the religious types at one point, neatly finessed by the alternative explanation that its Inventor was Christ-ian Hosoi
Gay Twist: fakie 360 with a mute grab, gay because it wasnt the full 540 twist, not my favourite name but I lived with it ( I seem to recall at least thelast two and maybe the first being used by comentators on the Xgames (espn/expn)

Sean Penn: the backside (much more difficult) version of a Maddonna (frontside air, nose grap, foot off, slapping the tail on re-entry) the name derives from Penns spousal abuse of Madonna (beats a maddona) again I was not comfortable with this name for especially as unlike the genocide, this name was chosen with malice.

Skateboarders
Natas Kaupas
I recall a drive to boycott Trasher magazine in the late eighties/early nineties(?) because it continued to champion a skateboarder who blatently used an anagram of satan as his nickname (religious types again). They backed down upon learning that Natas had been named by his eastern european parents who had been expecing a girl that they had planned to name Natasha, used to the name by the birth they shortened it to Natas.

BMX
a series of faltalnd tricks from the US with 'spastic' in the name. No fuss in the magazines (us based) I had this explained to me that it was a more acceptable word in the US (I dont know the truth of this). I know that in the UK it is not considered a word to be used in polite society. No backlash
A disaster (intentional bike hangup on vert) variation where the front peg was on the coping. It was called the Lockerbie after the Pan Am Lockerbie bombing. Again a name chosen with malice and one that did not stick for long.

[Mick Lunzer]

Good points Sean. ( kudos to you for using the word etymology in a sentence on a Diabolo website.) You makes a lot of sense. Maybe I am forcing the issue too much myself, or creating an issue when there is none. My curiosity does get the best of me sometimes. Still I think it is an interesting debate.

Did the media change the skateboarding names for broadcasting or names of tricks in other sports??

Might it eventually change ours the same way?

-Mick

ps
Sean I can't figure how to get the   ` above the "A" in your name, my apologies

[seán_]

The skateboard names went out as is, which surprised me, Sean Penn if you dont know the history is innocuous, sex change and gay twist are a bit more blatant.

The one big Espn name change travesty to hit us has been the change from Pirouette to 360

I think at the level we would expect to see in the WJF it would be rare to see an isolated genocide more likely a combo trick that the name would get lost in the mix or be naturally shortened or skipped just like most of us do when talking about tricks, not out of any conscious effort to be pc but just natural usage

I really cant see it being a problem unless its highlighted. I think the only time i have had to explain the reasoning on the genocide name (for someones interest not to justify it as such) i used the above, 'it would be suicidal..' line and it was accepted in the spirit it was offered.

Dont worry about the accent Mick, I seem to have lost it since I moved from home
I think its ctrl alt a, I'm on linux so I havent a clue how to do it myself. I'll answer to sean or Sean_ if that helps.

[Matt_]

I agree with this, they would be much more offended.  Also, the trick would be associated with the name of the black metal band "Deicide", which I guess could be where you thought of the name from?  If we look at an example of their song title "Kill The Christians" then it's obvious that deicide would likely be offensive to many people, as it would be associated.

yeah i actually was thinking of Deicide when i wrote that, i actually listen to them there are a ton of other -cide words, but that was the first that came to my head.

Do the names hurt or support our art or are they irrelevent.

i think they are irrelevant. if you choose to not be a part of any sport simply because of the names of the tricks, then you are very, very closed minded.

no one really gives a crap if you decide to call genocides "happy spinny rainbows", you can do whatever you want. of course, when diaboloists get together to talk, the term "genocide" is used. i think it's irrelevant, because it's harmless. we're talking about a stick release here, not the annihilation of a nation; as long as you understand that, then there's really no harm. that's my main point, those last two sentences (just trying to make it very clear).

[frank0072]

I totally agree with Matt_, and I would find Deicide very offensive, since I am a christian. I can think of people who would find Diabolo very offensive too. Some people think diabolo means something as 'devil', because of the background of the word. Diabology is a study of the devil if I recall well.
So what I am trying to say is just the same as Matt_ did. Just because some people even think the word 'diabolo' has something to do with the devil shouldn't mean we change that one too. It a foundation of our art, just as the suicide and genocide.
I hope I expressed myself well in english..

[wooftang]

i was just loking at the -cide references and i thought of a trick that you people who can do diabolo well (mainly all of you except me )
could do a liberticide like something were you wrap yourself up so you cannot move (ie. not having the liberty to move) then doing some crazy suicide out

[fadge]

@frank, i get people saying diabolo means devil but the funny thing is, it doesn't. Diablo means devil, but I think you are right about the diabology that does seem to mean the study of the devil.

Also I was a bit confused about deicide? But is it about the murder of a deity? thats what i figured.

I do find it quite pointless to change names for things like this, the reason people may get offended is because they don't understand. If they spent the time to understand what they hear rather than jugde early and get angry about it we could still live in a world that isn't controlled by stupid politically correct bullsh*t.

anyway, rant over.

On another note, the Buddahs revenge is a cool trick, I was well chuffed when i learnt it!!

Cool topic.

Fadge

[Matt_]

fadge, the dictionary is your friend, so use it

[fadge]

thanks matt_, atleast my guess was right, lol.

well i guess we could also name a trick regicide and see whether anyone get hung for treason.....

[martijn]

I like the idea of a cybercide! Let's kill this topic!!!

Really, it's just a name. Giving names to tricks is stupid anyways.

[frank0072]

I think this is a very interesting topic. We should not kill it and post silly names for tricks. Finally there is a serious topic about something that can be very concerning for people.
So keep your silly-names-posts to yourself or start a "WOW! I have found a silly name for a trick"- topic.

[fadge]

lighten up dude, i had a serious point as well don't you know, i just thought i'd try and lighten the mood. but evidentlly this shows the mentality of people who can seem to get annoyed by names of tricks.

IMO

i respect this thread its the only serious one on this forum that has any emotion included in it. and some mild humour provided by me martijn. lol  

Fadge

[Matt_]

Really, it's just a name. Giving names to tricks is stupid anyways.

well, if tricks didnt have names, then how would we refer to them? tricks have to have some sort of a name, so we at least know what we're doing and can describe it to other people.

in the yoyo world, you're expected to make up your own tricks for routines. like, entirely create brand new tricks if you make a routine. and people make up their own names. as such, no one knows what the hell anyone is talking about. it's a pretty sad status.