3rd Base ideoligy

[Duncan]

http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=214.msg1988#msg1988

Or read this

[LaNgErZ]

If 3rd base is sort of taking something out of a trick, shouldn't there be a 5th base too?
That would be like putting a flourish on a trick or complicating it.
I think if 5th base is counted then I have a 5th base slackwhip. I'll try and film it soon.

Beni

(I hope I haven't got the complete wrong end of the stick )

give that man a cigar. thats exactly what i've been the been thinking. i dont know its debateable, i think the only way it could be applied is through slackwhips. but i think (emphasis on the think) that for the trick to be truly 5th base it has to arrive at 4th aswell as 5th in the same movement, thats why i think it is only possible with slack, but yeah i'm hiding a few of them hehehe

lz

[Beni]

Well I'd say that Trash's web is 2nd base because actually it's still an open string. But another way of seeing it is that it's a 5th base open string.

for the trick to be truly 5th base it has to arrive at 4th aswell as 5th in the same movement

Well I dunno about 'truly' 5th base but it does seem to happen.

i think the only way it could be applied is through slackwhips.

I'm not sure. what about a double cradle? There are ways of geting into them without whipping. although that raises the question of what a cradle is. A 5th base open string? If so, then 5th basing a cradle would be... 6th base?! Hmmm...
Actually I do think there may be a 6th base something to do with 'basing' a two (or more) move combo.
This is fun .

Beni
(At this rate in a year there'll be 15 base 3d vertax combos incorporating the 32nd element. Maybe.)

[garner]

 cradle position is a knot on both sticks that leaves you in open string.
a trapeze cradle is a knot on 1 stick, then on 2, then a throw and then cradle position.

you could say a cradle slack as a 3rd base spaggetti slack, it might be a few things. but then if, by what your saying, a trick a the 3rd base of a node. if you change the 3rd base to be that node then the origonal trick become 5th base. thus including 3rd and 5th at the same time.

[Ben.]

oh it all makes sense now, garner that post really cleared things up.

[Beni]

But the question is, can you get from 3rd to 5th without going through 4th?
I see what you're getting at garner. I'd say that if you treat a knot as how it would be when all strings are released from sticks then most of it is 5th base and 3rd base versions of the tricks they are in themselves making. OK that probably makes no sense.
Let's see... for example we have a spaghetti. Now, if the loops are let off the stick, the string is open, thus making it a 5th base open string. But if you 3rd base the spaghetti which is itself a trick and key position (node?), it is techincally 3rd, 4th and 5th base at the same time. Maybe this makes it a 6th base trick.
However, a spaghetti knot leaves the door open to tampering with the loops. I think this is what stops it being 2nd base, like trash's web (which is barely 2nd itself).
You (garner) approach it in a different way from me, i.e. node theory and elements. I think those are best left to combo ideology until bases are sorted out, 'cause we're only talking single tricks atm. Although it is your way of explaining, and it makes sense to me, it can be confusing.
The problem with element theory is that it hardly incorporates body combos. An arm, leg, neck etc. should be considered a detached stick or fixed point, else it all breaks down when you try to explain Susannah's rubberarm wrapped orbits in elemental terms.

Beni
(LOL at Ben.)

[seán_]

A trick in in completion or 'in' is 4th base an extension of that trick to another to another major point of completion is a different trick trick that is 4th base. The previous trick that formed the basis of the new move then becomes the second base (or 3rd or 1st depending on the complexity of the new move) in relation to the new move but can still be viewed as a 4th base move (with the appropriate 1st 2nd and 3rd base of it's own) in its own right.

Taking it past 4th base is straight forward tweakage unless there is a further possible move where you can then bring all four bases into play again.

Baseball = 4 bases further than that is the dugout maybe with a manly slap on the arse by one of the coaching staff. If your looking for a bigger number of 'bases' may I sugest golf which offers 18 but 4 will cover it nicely for me.

[Beni]

Yes but since we have 4 bases we might as well have 5th base instead of tweakage. Although however much you tweak a trick, it is still 5th base, because 6th is different.

[seán_]

No Beni there are only 4 thats the beauty and truth of the system.

What do you mean instead of Tweakage? Base theory is a part of tweakage not the other way around, sheesh

[Beni]

Yeah but if you can explain a 'basing' combo in relation to trick C then call trick B 4th base and trick A 3rd base, how do you describe it in terms of trick A wihout calling trick C 5th base? If it's a good theory it should be able to work backwards.

[garner]

beni: i think your making my ear dribble and not the good dribble. you may have understood my post which was not its intention. d'oh. but i definately did not gets yours.

P.S. depending on how you veiw it, you coulld easily say that body combos are irrelevant in principle theory. or merely add an appendage for knots/wraps/loops/things as well as the sticks to your 'graph' of key positions. that way you can think up really strange new ways into a key postion you want, i.e by add my head and shoulders to the sticks on my scribble of nodes on paper i realised a brand new sort of body combo (for me). body slacks into combos

garner. zzzzzz....

[Beni]

Sheesh for someone who talks about nodes and elements, I thought 5th base would be pretty elemental (haha) ...easy to understand. Nevermind, I'll take the 5th and 6th bases back out of the public eye, hope I didn't cause too much stress .
Garner, suprisingly your trying-to-be-inpossible-to-understand post did make some sort of sense, I thought you were just trying to get your thoughts in order by typing, thus making it a little hard to read.

Beni
(*sigh*)

[LaNgErZ]

yeah sean_'s right. tweakage......... maybe i'm on about something different, or i'm just causing trouble........... probably the second

lz

[Chiok]

I'm liking how this is progressing.  Perfect idea exploration for late nights and a drink.  Shame I can't do much when I've had a drink.

Chiok