Author Topic: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?  (Read 8242 times)

jaigoda

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Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« on: June 06, 2007, 05:28:10 AM »
Hello again,

Okay, I've been diaboloing for almost three weeks now, and I'm just dying to get out of the boring old beginner tricks. So I started trying 2d out, but I dont seem to be making much progress. I also wanted to try vertax, but I'm not sure how you're supposed to wrap/twist/whatever it. So I guess I was just wondering if it was too early to start advanced tricks. I've mastered most of the basic tricks (orbits, trapezes,  stick grinds, basic suicides, and tosses), and have put together a small routine of most of what I have learned and can do it fluently with few mistakes. If I'm not ready for 2d/vertax, is there something fairly challenging (but not impossible) that I can try?

Oh, and this is totally off-topic, but I just noticed the diabolotricks.com shows doing chinese snaps with a left wrap instead of a right wrap, which is what I have been doing. Is that bad in any way?

Shaun

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2007, 06:14:19 AM »
if youve got the basics, then isnt it obvious to start on more advanced tricks. they take a fair bit of practise, so i dont see why you cant start now.
if you want to do vertax, wrap your right side over (right handers) and chinese whip into vertax.

Marijn

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2007, 07:14:33 AM »
i think that if you start 2d in a few months you will learn it much much faster than trying to get 2d started after only 3 weeks of diaboloing
''I have been practising some basic 2d suicide stuff to widen my arse''

William

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2007, 07:30:36 AM »
I say go for it. Maybe you'll be like Tahia and go straight to multiple diabolo. Learn at your own pace.
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

valtzu11

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2007, 09:45:11 AM »
I say go for it. Maybe you'll be like Tahia and go straight to multiple diabolo. Learn at your own pace.
he's right. no one else can say it better than you yourself. i learned 2d after a month of training in a weekend.
valtzu

Darragh

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2007, 01:24:23 PM »
just have fun
some people just don't want to drop there diabolo and are happy with basic tricks for a long time.other people are passionate about learning  1 or 2 insanely difficult tricks and ignore the basics.

i like to mix it up i play with one for a half hour then some 2 ,some vertax for 20 minutes, some more 1 back to 2.

i find this way i dont get frustrated and you are less likely to develop bad habits.with vertax i don't feel like i have ever really worked hard at it, a bit here and there and at the moment i am trying to learn vertax genocide's. its fun

its fun
its fun

peace d
From lost to the river

Dan

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2007, 03:05:10 PM »
Ok well i learnt 2d at the end of august last year and i had started diabolo about a month or so before that.  As for excalibur i didn't bother with it until about christmas last year.  Simply because i couldn't do chinese whips that well.  As for tricks after the basics with 1 - there are plenty of more advanced 1d tricks to learn if you are struggling with 2d.  To name just a few, Infinite suicide, all types of genocide (inc mini genocide variations), slackwhips, some mad body combos, complicated knots and more advanced whip catches.  There really are infinite possiblities because there will always be a harder version of a previous trick that can be learn/created.

Just experiment alot.  This will also help you to develop your own style.

tomangleberger

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2007, 03:15:36 PM »
Do what I did (still do)...

Do 2d until one diabolo falls, then do 1d until that diabolo falls. Probably a terrible way to learn, but....

Ben.

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2007, 04:10:15 PM »
i think that as long as you have some form of acceleration like chinese snaps or orbit then you can learn two whenever, if you are still a beginner that is just whipping witout a wrap then two is not the thing to be working on.

Alex!

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2007, 05:04:26 PM »
I personally think that you should only start practicing 2d once you've got at least to the genocide/infinite suicide stage of 1d. That is a good time to learn 2d because as at first you will learn tricks slowly, you can always fall back on 1d for impressive solid tricks. Also, I think 1d looks better than 2 or 3 if you can create good, original and fluent combos.
But skill wise, as long as you can leg orbit and right wrap you should be able to learn 2d :)
STOP! HAMMER 'TIJN

Pete

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2007, 05:12:47 PM »
Well, my real 1d progress began just after learning 2d to a reasonable level. But i did learn 2d very slowly compared to the way people do now. It took nearly a year. But still i felt it was a new level for me and pushed me up a bit. So really, just start when you think your ready, no-one else can tell you. I started trying 2d because i saw someone do it once and it inspired me. At the time it was way to advanced for me but i tried anyway. A year later i had advanced considerably with one so i stepped up 2d practice and cracked it.
The tallest trees from acorns grow.

jaigoda

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2007, 07:04:07 PM »
Alright, thanks for all of the suggestions. I think I'm going to try 2d for a few days and see if I make progress, and if I don't I'll just stay with 1d for a few weeks and try again later.

As for vertax, I tried it with a right-hand wrap, and I got it close to vertical, but as soon as I hit a certain point, it would just fly off the string. Do you have to wrap it again or something, or maybe hold it different?

Edit: I forgot to ask, what do you think I should use for a 2d start? I started using a right-handed toss-in, but now I'm trying left-hended where I curl my finger around the axel, palm down. I also tried the rocket start, but one of the diabolos always flew off to the right. Any ideas?

-Leo-

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2007, 07:25:43 PM »
The wrap start is generally considered to be the best way to begin with two diabolos for the first time because it means that they are both stable and spinning before you start the shuffle. A few people prefer the throw start but it's all down to personal preference and what you feel is best really.

I would steer clear of the rocket start for now because that has a subtle technique to it, that you will find easier after you've got a steady shuffle.
Behind your back is your front.

k2pek2

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2007, 07:56:54 PM »
wrap start. hands down.
-John

Pete

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2007, 10:34:01 PM »
I learnt with throw start because the only way i knew how at the time. Seemed logical to me.
The tallest trees from acorns grow.

Dan

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2007, 10:50:58 PM »
Wrap start is best i think because it also means you can practise how you would speed up a diabolo in 2d (before chinese whips obviously).  Also i learnt a 2d left sun before i had a solid shuffle so tricks are possible straight away.  If you want to work souly on your shuffle it might be an idea to find someone or teach someone how to do an inverse trapeze and get them to throw one in for you from the left.

jaigoda

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2007, 01:03:58 AM »
Ok, I tried using the wrap start, and it went somewhat well, but I can't seem to keep it up near the handle. It always slides down and collides with the other cup. how do I keep it up?

Also, I'm actually using two different kinds of diabolos (a beach and a finnesse G2), and I can't but anything else since I'm pretty much broke. Is it okay to use two different diabolos for 2d?

Lastly, I've been doing some vertax occasionally, and I can get it vertical, but after about 2-3 seconds, it just flies off the string. I'm using a normal right wrap, which is what miesta said to do. Where am I going wrong?

n3mo

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2007, 01:53:42 AM »
im not exactly an expert on either, but..i'll try.

-keeping the 'hover' of the second diab - its hard with slick string. i find i have to pull longer than i normally do with 1d, it might work.
-using two different ones - its the weight that messes them up, still possible, but rather more difficult. its a lot easier if they're both about the same weight.
-keep going into vertax and playing with it, it'll come. make sure you're turning around as necessary. once you go all the way into vertax, the left arm can come down a little lower, or else you just keep tipping the diabolo. if your diabolo is unwrapping and flying off to your back, try whipping it a little farther from the stick.

hope this helps (and hope its right ^^;)
- Princeton Juggling Club -

hat man

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2007, 02:51:19 AM »
go 4 i dont know 2d yet either but i heard that its easier than u think

NeoRufus

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2007, 09:53:11 AM »
It's OK to learn 2d with two different diabolos. But it's harder.
If you choose to learn more 2d tricks, you should concider buying two diabolos of the same type.

If you string is new, it's really hard to keep the wrapped diabolo up (especially with henrys yellow string!). Play with 1d for a few hours and if your string "isn't new anymore" try 2d again.

jaigoda

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2007, 04:21:06 PM »
I was currently using an approximately half-week-old string that had gone to a light brown. I just switched my string, though. Also, should I try to do sharper pulls? Or maybe not as hard pulls? This whole thing is so confusing! ??? Well, maybe someone will help me out at the convention I'm going to on Saturday (I finally found a place).

Midoryu

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2007, 04:55:53 AM »
I want to start doing vertax, but like jaigoda, I keep having trouble, particularly which direction to turn in, and what positions my arms should be in.  I tried to do it, but it just ends up flying off the string like our buddy here.  What should I do?  Where should my right arm and left arm be?  How often should I snap and turn?  How should you balance the snap and turn so that you won't oversnap or overturn?
If you juggle and you know it, do [insert complex siteswap notation].

Aaron Z

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2007, 02:24:04 PM »
Sorry to interject here, I guessed it'd be suitable to ask my questions here  :-\

Anyways, for Christmas this year I got a second Finesse G3, and for the 4 following days I've been lightly (Around 20 minutes a day) practicing 2D. I've mostly practiced starting with a personal variation of a right Throw-In, but have intermittently attempted Wrap-Starts.

So far, I've been having frustrating problems with both starts, with throw-ins I infrequently get it right, and there seems to be little consistency in my throws; they usually fly to far forward/backward or to the left/right or just have no spin on the thrown diabolo, or it wobbles out of control in the air.

With loop starts, I feel very awkward setting the string around the axle. I wrap the string like a would a normal right-hand wrap with one diabolo, A usual wrap, not a backside wrap, is this right? - and then I feel even more awkward trying to position my hand on the diabolo and trying to give it some stable spin before releasing it and trying to accelerate it further with my right stick before unwrapping into a shuffle.
- The only part of the loop start i get correct is up to trying to spin the diabolo by hand before releasing it, it turns and drops into the first diabolo and I don't know how I'm supposed to accelerate it; do I just quickly tug at the string or do a few quick-short Chinese Snaps?

Also, every once in a while when I properly capture a  throw in, I'm just so surprised it worked that I forget to start trying to aid the shuffle and just watch it auto-shuffle a few times before grinding to a stop, so I've made little progress  :(

Should I just keep on practicing? How did others progress?

TomMiller

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2007, 03:15:15 PM »
keep trying, as with the wrap start try to relax yourself more,never give up i know how fustrating it can be
Its hard peeing in the dark becuase you dont know if it went in the toilet

Diabolo Aqquired/some time near the end of july/
2 Diabolo skill aqquirered/2007/9/16 14:44/
3 Diabolo skill aqquired/      /

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tipiphil

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2007, 03:18:51 PM »
Can't comment on throw starts as so far they have eluded me too...

With wrap starts, you want a right back wrap on the second diabolo, so when you unwrap it by swinging clockwise it ends up unwrapped.  Personally I just give it some spin with the hand and then unwrap it straight away before it has a chance to slip too far down (with new Henry's yellow string it can get very frustrating!!)

And finally... Yes keep practising, you'll get there soon.

Good luck.

Aaron Z

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2007, 01:21:23 AM »
Thanks a lot for the help ;D

Just to clarify, I wrap the second diabolo by pulling the string down over it's axle and continuing around in a full clockwise arc?


Aaron Z

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2007, 11:41:16 AM »
Is a backwrap a;
'Right-Hand wrap' that you'd usually do with one diabolo, or a right-hand BACKWRAP which is wrapping the string down and over the axle of a diabolo?

Or is it one of the the variations of a right-hand wrap in which you either:
1. (with the 1st diabolo spinning, open axle on the string already) place your 2nd diabolo inside your string, and wrap your string around the axle going around the near of far cup?

I'm having difficulty explaining this, to simplify it could someone please make a detailed, close-up video of a backwrap from a preferably over-shoulder perspective? :D

William

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2007, 12:09:19 AM »
Like a normal right handed wrap. Around the near cup. I'll find a video somewhere..
Get Diabology ;)
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

Aaron Z

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2007, 02:32:33 AM »
OK, thanks  :P

Also, is there a special method for quickly and smoothly wrapping the 2nd diabolo?
At the moment I hold the far cup with my right hand, both sticks forked in my left hand- 1st diabolo spinning; then after reaching around the string with my right hand, I put the axle on the string and move the diabolo to put it into a Right-Hand-Wrap, then I have to rest the diabolo against my chest so I can let go of the far cup and instead grab the near cup and give it a spin before releasing...

That whole process is pretty quick, but it doesn't look great.

Beni

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2007, 11:05:34 AM »
You don't have to balance it on your chest; you have enough time to quickly grab the near cup.
However, I'm a near cup thrower but I start 2d with the near cup. You'll find you hardly need any spin at all to get going — cold starts aren't very hard. Some people give spin to the axle but it sounds like you're not one of them. Of course, all these methods work, and learning them all is easy enough once you've got your most comfortable one solid, but near cup is a bit messy.

Beni

Midoryu

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2008, 05:23:55 AM »
Hey, "Aaron - 'Squiddo' - Z", it sound like you haven't really got the "feel" for the shuffle yet.  Not that I'm in a position to say so myself, but I think the main point of getting 2d is to make your muscles remember the RIGHT movements.  Which means, yes, practice makes perfect.
But there is another way...(Haven't been on for a long time, so my progress is outdated...)

-Practice just throwing your diabolo until it can turn smoothly and without wobbling.  I have NEVER thrown a ball more than 10 metres, so the least I could do was to make the diabolo spin smoothly

-Imagine yourself standing on a grid.  Or, if you're not on tiles but on carpets, use the biggest ruler you can find and make parallel marks in the carpet.  And voila, instant guidelines to restrict your throws within the ruler marks.

-A little bit on your shuffle is, practice leg orbits.  Then, DON'T USE YOUR LEFT HAND (assuming you're right-handed).  That way, it forces only your right hand to move the diabolo.  The result should give you a scoop with your hand down and up to spin the diabolo.  This is the biggest key in 2d, is the motion of your hands to scoop the diabolo down.  notice pranay's or the Sharpe brothers' right hand movements when they are doing 2d.  You'll notice that they are actually pushing downwards.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that you're an idiot, nor do I want to, so if you already know all of this, then I would suggest a throw start.  If it knocks into your 1st diabolo, tough.  It'll just come naturally to you, so don't worry.

Maybe I should put this in the proper thread...
If you juggle and you know it, do [insert complex siteswap notation].

luabduch

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Re: Too Early for 2d (and vertax)?
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2008, 09:06:18 AM »
I have learned 2d with 2 months and a little of a lot of practice per day.
vertax i just learned 2 weeks ago.

first try to learn genocides, tomicides, infinite suicide and some basic integral suicide variations.
I did it in my trainings...

..

 

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