Author Topic: New diaboloing attitude?  (Read 10499 times)

Eric Moffett

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New diaboloing attitude?
« on: July 12, 2007, 05:03:26 AM »
It could just be me, and there are really only two examples I have really thought about, but it seems with the lack of original moves, or tricks, that the diaboloing attitude has changed =/ I mean, I realize that Void's opinion is he just doesn't like vertax much, but then other diaboloist chirp in saying how it's not expanding, and just being over done, and it's not original, and they are complaining. Then the YoSpin commercial, ok, (I don't know anybody, so I'm just going to say that guy who did that thing) Sanders(?) used that guys trick, didn't say it was his, all he did was use it. Then that guy (sorry I don't remember your name) got really mad because he "stole" his trick, because it's his original trick or whatever. That doesn't really sound friendly, and this kind of attitude won't make this skill evolve.

It's like having an apple tree full of apples, and soo many ripe for picking, and people just relied on the ones that fell on the ground, and for a long time this was good enough, then more people came, and started taking some of the apples on the ground, and they got mad, and since they have been doing the same stuff for so long that they didn't even think of climbing the tree and getting more, they were just mean and hording them, then the new guys come and start to climb the tree and get more apples =/ long story

I've only been diaboloing for a few months now, but I'm watching the videos of you guys that have been doing it for years, and I'm inspired to do what you do, whether it's just copying, or manipulating, or inventing. I'm looking through the eyes of a new guy with ideas, not the old guys who think they thought of everything already.

I don't know these are my thoughts, scattered, over reacted, or just wrong, I just felt like sharing.
Diabolo Acquired - Thurday, 2/08/07
Vertax Skill Acquired - Thursday, 4/12/07
2 Diabolo Skill Acquired - Tuesday, 5/29/07
3 Diabolo Skill Acquired - Eh, No?

Jussi

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2007, 10:32:13 AM »
I think you better write to these 2 topics.

But yeah, i understand Void's point very well, and it is very good point - vertax isnt that great! every young fine diabolist shouldnt use half of his or her practise time to get that _boring vertax genocide with lousy style_ yeah, i agree 100%. And that other thing seems to have new topic.

-Leo-

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2007, 02:12:43 PM »
This is silly. Everyone shares ideas, otherwise in the credits for each video we'd still be crediting Fritz, and Guy everytime we did a fritz release or ran three low (respect to them though :))

Can't we just all be nice?

"Stole, made up, what's the difference?" - Krusty the clown.

-Leo
Behind your back is your front.

martijn

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2007, 08:38:21 PM »
Oh, way to go to quote Krusty if you wanna be taken serious :P

-Leo-

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2007, 09:39:22 PM »
I just think if people took a light hearted aproach to things we might get somewhere rather than someone pointing the finger: "You stole my integral" "No I didn't I added a trapeze before it!"

At the end of the day one trick makes nearly no difference to someones ability so why argue over something as little as that?
Behind your back is your front.

martijn

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2007, 10:54:32 PM »
Because it's a principle matter.

looby

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2007, 11:44:32 PM »
Why are you continuing in this thread when there was one created for this so called "issue" only earlier today?  Moff3tt you havent helped the situation by creating a new thread to make your opinion "exclusive" amongst others.  Please lock this and let it rest

For all the captain textbooks amongst you, if you've got time in life to get stressed over someone performing one of "your" toy tricks, you should probably embark on a new hobby or new life
Rennes July 10-17th 2011!

Eric Moffett

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2007, 04:03:15 AM »
Why are you continuing in this thread when there was one created for this so called "issue" only earlier today?  Moff3tt you havent helped the situation by creating a new thread to make your opinion "exclusive" amongst others.  Please lock this and let it rest

For all the captain textbooks amongst you, if you've got time in life to get stressed over someone performing one of "your" toy tricks, you should probably embark on a new hobby or new life
I've only been diaboloing for a few months now, but I'm watching the videos of you guys that have been doing it for years, and I'm inspired to do what you do, whether it's just copying, or manipulating, or inventing. I'm looking through the eyes of a new guy with ideas, not the old guys who think they thought of everything already.

That's kind of what I wanted to get at with this discussion but lock it if you wish.
Diabolo Acquired - Thurday, 2/08/07
Vertax Skill Acquired - Thursday, 4/12/07
2 Diabolo Skill Acquired - Tuesday, 5/29/07
3 Diabolo Skill Acquired - Eh, No?

martijn

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2007, 11:12:34 AM »
Why are you continuing in this thread when there was one created for this so called "issue" only earlier today?

Well.... because you started it! Come on, I was only trying to be clever with the Krusty remark.

if you've got time in life to get stressed over someone performing one of "your" toy tricks, you should probably embark on a new hobby or new life

I think that's a bit narrowminded, for some people it's more than just a toy or a hobby. It can be a hobby, an art, a sport, your profession or your lifestyle. Choose one you like, but don't bash others for choosing something else.

-Leo-

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2007, 11:50:20 AM »
Probably my last post in this thread:

Either way you look at it learning a trick is an achievement. One of the reasons we have videos is to showcase these achievements, if you can't stand someone learning something that you created then you probably shouldn't be watching them. We share ideas and tricks to improve eachother and you shouldn't worry about what other people are doing. At the end of the day this isn't a competition, unless you're a professional.

The only question here is using other tricks for financial gain, another matter altogether and one that I'm not particularly concerned about because I can't see myself ever performing with a diabolo. Other people can worry about it but I'd like to think that one trick/combo doesn't make a video or a performance.

At this point I'd like to remind everyone that we're a community and everyone has different opinions on subjects, that's what makes this such an interesting place and a great thing to be a part of.

-Leo
Behind your back is your front.

looby

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2007, 12:41:37 PM »
Well.... because you started it! Come on, I was only trying to be clever with the Krusty remark.

Eh?? 

I think that's a bit narrowminded, for some people it's more than just a toy or a hobby. It can be a hobby, an art, a sport, your profession or your lifestyle. Choose one you like, but don't bash others for choosing something else.

Well you know where myself and the majority of other members stand.

Rennes July 10-17th 2011!

matthewthegreat

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2007, 03:43:04 PM »
I thought the only rule to the diabolo was have fun. So I don’t see why every one is arguing.  I think this attitude violates the fun rule.

Diabolo88

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2007, 08:06:58 PM »
I´m having the suspiscion that all these stupid arguments about who´s the best and who invented what first are currently fueled by a three letter long jugglingorganisation (just my thought though).

This "stealing" of other peoples stuff is known among Bboys as "biting". In their community it has been like that for years. If you copy you´re considered a loser. Now let me ask you to watch ANY bboy battle on the internet or wherever and think about if that is the kind of hostile atmosphere you want in juggling?

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I just think if people took a light hearted aproach to things we might get somewhere rather than someone pointing the finger: "You stole my integral" "No I didn't I added a trapeze before it!"

At the end of the day one trick makes nearly no difference to someones ability so why argue over something as little as that?

I think this is the best attitude one could have and agree wholeheartedly.

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The only question here is using other tricks for financial gain, another matter altogether and one that I'm not particularly concerned about because I can't see myself ever performing with a diabolo.

I agree with this if it means the true creative juggler gets passed over by someone who´s just copying stuff left and right. However, if it is a performance for the public or whatever, maybe it doesn´t really matter much either?

martijn

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2007, 08:56:28 PM »
I´m having the suspiscion that all these stupid arguments about who´s the best and who invented what first are currently fueled by a three letter long jugglingorganisation

No - you're totally missing the point. The WJF has got nothing to do with this issue. This is a problem that has excisted for a long long time (since diabolo really grew exponentially, around the time of Diabology).

The diabolo community has never had, has not and will never have a hostile atmosphere. You might have taken the original post that started the whole discussion a bit too heavy.

Diabolo88

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2007, 09:12:09 PM »
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No - you're totally missing the point. The WJF has got nothing to do with this issue. This is a problem that has excisted for a long long time (since diabolo really grew exponentially, around the time of Diabology).

The diabolo community has never had, has not and will never have a hostile atmosphere. You might have taken the original post that started the whole discussion a bit too heavy.

OK, guess I misunderstood the whole thing. For the WJF, all I hear about is Jason complaining about things so I just hope that particular part doesn´t spread (besides that it seems like a great organisation).

I don´t know if I take things too heavy since I almost never meet other diabolists. I just meant that I hope it will not evolve like that in the future either. Things should stay the same basically (no complaints here ;)).

Chiok

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2007, 01:38:18 AM »
No - you're totally missing the point. The WJF has got nothing to do with this issue.
Wow, I wasn't sure what he was referring to at first, but your post cleared it right up. 

Chiok
www.gravityvomit.co.uk - Gravity pulls down, we throw up.
University of Bath Juggling and Circus Skills

martijn

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2007, 10:35:05 AM »
You're taking the piss, right? :P

LaNgErZ

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2007, 12:01:19 PM »
i pretty much agree with everyone so far, i think it is important to remember if you stole/borrowed/modified a trick and respect the person you ........ it from, this i'm afraid is how progression works. i think originality can be judged merely by style, as everyone knows the same trick will look different if different peple do it. i think the term biting is a bit harsh but in some respects fair, for instance there is a yoyo trick known by most yoyoists (nick you could help here) called a "brent stole" which is basically an instant GT that he "stole/borrowed" from someone and used in a freestyle............. but then again (i think) this trick is one movenment and therefore easily noticed, a long string trick would never be that noticeable so could easily be "stolen/borrowed"

intersting thread

Progression is as Important as Invention

lz

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Yes it is cool, but it's not yours. Don't copy his combinations.
probably the wisest thing said so far

Ginger_Tom

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2007, 05:53:58 PM »
The West Yorkshire philosophy is generally that, seeing as diabolo is a learning experience, if you are taught a trick someone has come up with, thats fair enough. Stealing a trick is bad news, unless you have improved on it, then it is welcome.
If an Improvement is made, it is the person who improved the tricks trick.
Plain stealing is wrong, but what i like to call 'Borrowing with intent to make improvement' is all cool.

Stop bickering and start learning.

Or, you could get a style that people can try to copy, but can't.

GT
Out of focus lovin', Mark_BMC you legend!

Mick Lunzer

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2007, 10:38:54 PM »
What exactly is stealing a trick? How many of you "stole" the string climb without adding to it?  I bet you didn't invent it. How many of you "stole" the whip catch?  To not do a trick unless you add to it or change it makes no sense. If that is true no one should be doing two or three diabolos at all. There was a time when just doing two was a trick.  A little history from an old diaboloist..........

    The first time I saw two diabolos done was by Jeff Mason in 1988,  He got the IJA Gold medal for using balls and diabolos.  Jeff was from Minnesota and we practiced at the same gym.  He said he saw Guy do it.  I immediately set about learning two. After months of work I was able to do two. I was learning how to correct them and I had learned a few tricks I might say invented, but they were tricks that were already done with one. (under the leg, around the arm, around the world, trapeze and sun)  Should I get credit for these tricks? I say no.  Why?  Because they were obvious. I bet a hundred other people independently came up with the same tricks at the same time.

    Laying claim to inventing a trick is hard to do and usually innacurate.  I did all those tricks publicly at IJA at th '91 diabolo open. A year later I had someone from London show me a 2d trick they had just invented (around the arm). When I told him I already did that one, he said he I stole it from him.

    In 88, I could correct two but I was hoping to get better at it.  I asked Jeff for advice, he was surprised that I could do it at all.  At the time he said both he and Guy just got two going and kept them going until they tilted and fell off. Yet none of you have asked my permission or have given me credit when you correct two diabolos.  Should I get credit for inventing the correction of 2 diabolos in 1988?  Hell no!  And by the way we have no idea if someone from China, India, Siberia, Thailand, or Iowa did it long before Guy, Jeff or I did it. It was an obvious next step. How many other people did or would have gotten there eventually. How many of you figured it out without seeing someone else do it?

I recently saw a Photo from the 1940's of someone from China doing two of the old bamboo diabolos. I don't remember Guy Heathcoat or Jeff Mason giving him credit.  Did we all steal that guy's trick?

    Some of the same conversations have come up with vertex tricks.  At a convention someone told me they invented the vertex magic knot. He might have come up with it independently, but so did a lot of other people.  In 1989 I was teaching children how to do diabolos Two eight year olds thought it was fun to see how far they could get their diabolo to tip sideways before passing it off and trying to catch it. They actually were able to keep it vertical by spinning in a circle. At the time you couldn't do a wrap on a diabolo with out it catching on the small gap or your twisted cotton cord.   Never the less these two children may have been the forefathers of excalibur.  Ironically I told them their time might be better spent working with it horizontally. They didn't listen, either way they don't get credit for excalibur tricks, were they the first to do it decades ago? Probably not but who knows.

Most of the time the person getting credit for a trick is the first person to perform it publicly or to publish it in some form.  That doesn't mean they were the first ones to ever do it. 
Each new trick we do is laying the foundation for the future and is derived from a trick in the past that you did not invent.

How can you really say a trick is yours?

-Mick
Diaboloist for 25 years and counting


 

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