Author Topic: New diaboloing attitude?  (Read 11232 times)


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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2007, 11:30:54 PM »
I see your point, but it's been made before (perhaps in the other topic) You've written a lot of lines giving examples of obvious tricks, while this topic is about the less obvious ones (aka signature tricks). The issue is about (the lack of) respect for the creator's wishes, the so-called unwritten rules. So yeah, it's a vague line between blatant stealing and copying/learning/improving.


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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2007, 01:49:25 AM »
I agree with you in a way, but as martijn points out, the signature tricks are the ones we care about.
Out of focus lovin', Mark_BMC you legend!

Mick Lunzer

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2007, 04:33:22 AM »
What is an obvious signature trick?
Did you know the string climb was once a someones signature trick. So was the darkside catch, A whip catch, and a magic knot. These are obvious now, but not fifteen years ago, I was there. So how much time needs to go by before it is no longer a signature trick? The common tricks didn't start out as common.

    When I did a vertex genocide, at the Mondo juggling convention someone commented "Wow your are a regular Matt Hall." As sad as that was to me ( Matt, You big Dork)  That vertex genocide is a Matt Hall signature trick, Matt didn't invent it, but he performed it at a lot of conventions and when people see that trick they think of Matt as this person did.

  2d around the world into a left sun followed by a right sun was one of my signature tricks, (See Canadian National Championship videos in Winnipeg '91'92'93 If any one still has a VHS Copy) Ask the other old timers if you don't believe me.  People started doing it right after the diabolo open in 91 the minute I finished my routine. Fair game? Yes. I still do the trick, It would be silly now for me to say others are stealing my signature move, but it is happening.......even the diabology guys have done it. (those rat bastards)
There are a lot of examples but I assume you get it. If not I can provide plenty.

So how do you define a signature trick?  Something you "invented" or what if someone else thought of it but you did it first? Most likely it is something that someone performed more often than anyone else in a public format.  I have learned tricks from people that did diabolos as a hobby only. When I put those tricks in my routines and performed them often they became signature tricks. Did I invent them? No.

I have also come up with tricks independently and fond out that others stumbled on the same thing who's trick is it then?

Who is the creator? The person who invents it or the person who publicly performs it? 

These arguments always break down in the long view, over time all new tricks become common.  Think of Michael Moschen and his contact juggling. Bobby May did contact juggling as did WC fields, 40 years earlier as well as a lot of other jugglers, but Moschen gets most of the credit for inventing it because of his signature routine, and he complained the loudest that so many people stole his work.

This topic gets covered again and again because people forget they stand on the backs of others.
I say don't guard your tricks to tightly, the foundation you used to create them wasn't built by you.



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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2007, 05:12:10 AM »

Might be worth checking this out Mick its where this thread would have been moved to if it hadn't tailed off.
possible merge to come.


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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2007, 08:11:55 AM »
signature tricks are usually associated with the player YOU see do/hear about it (video or live etc). an average person would associate the trick with the player they first see do it, even if they didnt originally make up the trick.
its too hard to figure out who done what first becasue not everyone records their progress.
last week a kid made up a trick/combo he called 'finger grind triple pogo' :D. In his mind, he believes he created it, even though it most likey been done before.
Even with very advanced tricks, people are most likely to associate the trick with they first person they see do it

Mick Lunzer

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2007, 06:59:46 PM »
Right on Sean!

Thanks for the link
Looks like has been covered.

donald grant

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2007, 02:18:52 AM »
Yay Mick

 Yes, the topic has been "covered" but in a rather scattergun fashion.

It's always nice to see someone from the old guard posting on the site here; hell, I'd post more often if I felt there was a bit more collective understanding about where this "ancient/ 20 years old" art form came from.

Big thumbs up to Chiok for doing the interviews and trying to spead a bit of history, by the way.

Back on the topic, yes, I owe a lot to Guy, Jochen Schell and even that tiny bit of Jeff Mason IJA video for what I ended up doing.  Nowadays, it's impossible to understand that it was so rare to find anyone else who even bothered use diabolo in a creative way and in those pre-internet days it could take a year for a new trick to creep it's way around the world.

My books started coming out in 1992 and the whole idea was simply to spread a bit of knowledge.  Nobody had ever (as far as I know) written anything about suicides before and the third book (1993) was the first time anyone had ever bothered to write about two and three diabolos.  Guy helped a lot on that one, by the way!

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not actually important WHO creates a trick, so long as it is created.  Despite temptations, I never named any of the new tricks in the books after myself as it didn't really seem necessary.  The fact that they were out there seemed enough....

Enough ranting, I'm off to bed, good luck to all,


Mick Lunzer

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Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2007, 05:06:00 AM »
Thank you Donald,
Not for the post, but for the books and expanding what is possible for all of us.


p.s. I stole some of your tricks


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