Author Topic: String Theory and Time  (Read 7346 times)

Mick Lunzer

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String Theory and Time
« on: August 01, 2007, 06:26:22 AM »
    I've been doing diabolo a long time (22 years)  I have recently put some serious thought into some things I have been doing intuitively for years.  It has do do with the string timing and direction.
This won't be new to most of you, and I am sure a lot of you have been doing these things for years without thinking about it. I haven't seen much posted about it so I thought I would share what I learned and see if any of you have discovered the same things.
 
    When I was working on 4,2 with 3d low I kept throwing the "4" too far to the right.
A friend of mine commented that I was throwing too late. He was correct.
I never really considered time on the string having to do with direction of the diabolo.
If I wanted the diabolo to go to the right I would "aim" right, if I wanted it to go left I would just "aim" left.

    Thinking about what he said, I started to play with two high. I just observed what I was doing. I realized I wasn't really aiming as much as I was changing the time on the string.  If I wanted a diabolo to go far to the left I was instinctively throwing it much earlier than I would if I wanted a diabolo to go far to my right.  It was a surprise to me because I was physically doing one thing while cognitively I thought I was doing something else.

    I never realized I did this.  Try it. (for right handers making a regular catch near the right hand stick. Right hand slightly higher than left) If you catch a diabolo and immediately bounce it off the string it will travel to your left. If you wait as long as possible to throw it as it travels along the string toward your left hand it will fly off to the far right.
 
   Stated another way, When a falling diabolo hits the string, the downward momentum is shifted to the left. As it travels the half circle created by the string the momentum is shifted to the right  A diabolo thrown from near your right hand stick will go to the left.  A diabolo thrown from near your left hand stick will tend to go to your right.

Is this useful?  It was to me.  For me thinking in terms of "time on string" rather than "aim" dramatically  improved my accuracy with 2 and 3 high and tricks with 3 low.  It has also sped up my progress on learning many new tricks.  After breaking it down I found "aiming" or tilting the string had very little to do with the direction of the arch, it was almost all TOS  (time on string)

This applies to excaliber tricks as well, only sideways.

I would encourage you to experiment with this if you haven't. This may not be a revelation to many of you, it might even be old news. But it was fun for me and has helped me be more accurate.

    I also realized The length of the sting can also make a big difference.  I was practicing three high (I am trying to get 100 throws by best is about 30)  I was throwing to far to the left. (early)   So just for fun I shortened my string by about 6 inches. This meant the diabolo had less string to cover. It got to my left hand quicker than it would have with a longer string. The end result was that I was throwing later and my pattern moved to the right.  If I wanted it to go to the left I had to throw way early.  I put a longer string on using the same timing, and of course the diabolo tended to go to the left.

    I am not advocating changing your string length every time you want to change your throw, but the theory is the length of the string with could correct certain tendencies.

    We all have different string lengths we are comfortable with, this may have something to do with our natural timing.  We tend to use a length that fits with our individual throwing style or innate timing.  Just a theory.

I am curious to see what you think.

-Mick



garner

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2007, 11:20:32 AM »
nice stuff. i remember when i decided to learn 2 high i thought of shortening my string and then as i got better i'd lengthen it back to normal. it works but atleast i know the logic behind it now.
as for timing in low, i've never really named it but i know what it is because its really helpful to manipulate the shuffle that way and come out with stupid tricks like a diabolo satelite.

The Void

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2007, 12:01:20 PM »
I'd just like to say that was a great post Mick. We often don't think about how we think about what we are doing.

Click.

The Void
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Hurting my own head.
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OLOBAID

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2007, 12:49:04 PM »
when i read the title, i thought it has to do something with stephen hawking.
but thats similiar genius, haha! thanks, never thought about that - could be the reason why im so unbelievable bad at high diaboloing!

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mofro

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2007, 12:55:25 PM »
I was physically doing one thing while cognitively I thought I was doing something else.

i cant really do 2 high however i do think that this a fasanating point and thank you for sharing. i wonder how many other things there are like this that we dont even realise we do. very intersting point....

mofro
**** fixed and bring on the slack!

tommi

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2007, 02:29:11 PM »
I've noticed this very thing when practising three high. As I'm using stopover-start, I find it important to wait between the first two throws leaving from the string. When the timing is right my throws are usually quite good. If I hurry I must move to left to keep the pattern together, and it feels quite awkward.

Arjan

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2007, 02:53:56 PM »
This is not completely about the topic but does have some relevance

Off course the best method for learning 2 or 3 high is to get perfect throws with 1 diabolo on that height.
But when you throw only one diabolo the timing is much and much slower! This allows you to relax and throw proper throws. But then when you throw the same height, only with 2 or more diabolo's the timing has to be much quicker and you might tend to rush. This affects everything you do in order to throw.

Try to play with the height of your patterns. This increases control a lot! I usually do this for warming up.
It's interesting to see how your body position tends to change when switching from a high high pattern into a low high pattern. The lower the pattern gets, the lower my dominant hand gets and the more my non dominant hand starts to make a upward throwing motion instead of a more pulling to the side (as in a higher pattern)

I might get back on the string length tonight.

Mick Lunzer

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2007, 03:12:56 PM »
I think you are on topic, It is a great way to explore TOS "time on string"
With 2 high for example,the higher you throw one diabolo the more time you will have for the other diabolo to move toward your left hand stick. This gives you the option of throwing more to your right. If you throw lower you will have less time on the string with the second diabolo and will be more likely to throw toward the left.

I bet someone good at math could write an equation for this.
X=Tos squared times the circumference............


Mick Lunzer

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2007, 03:36:05 PM »
I had another thought about this.
I have been thinking of time on the string as landing near the right hand stick (for right handers) and traveling to the left.

What happens if you catch the diabolo in the middle of the string?

I think (to respond to my own question) That you have effectively shortened the string length and will have to throw accordingly. Earlier to direct it left and later to direct it right, but you will have less time to do this.

The further to the left of the string you catch the diabolo the less time you will have to keep the diabolo on the string.(assuming you are making another throw)

Where you catch the diabolo on the string determines your ESL :D  "effective string length", therefore it is a determining factor of time on the string and direction of throw.

Do you agree? I am interested to see if any of you think this is true.
Together we could create a working theory on string length, timing and direction to help beginning and advanced and diaboloists all over the globe, and possibly save the universe!!!!!

..........ok I might be getting a little carried away, but I would still like to here what you think of the premise

Thanks

-Professor Mick (Mad diabolo scientist)


tommi

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2007, 10:12:45 PM »
I think the "ESL"-theory sounds pretty good. Some thoughts about it.

As Arjan told he moves his non-dominant hand more up when lowering three high pattern. I believe this happens because when the pattern is lower diabolo should spend less time on the string, but still he wants it to land on the on the same part of the string every time, no matter how high the throws are. So, as the diabolo has to leave the string earlier it will land more on the left as it should, unless you 'tilt' the string to make the diabolo to reach the right spot to leave the string in shorter time (by lifting your non-dom. hand).

So not only the length of the string and place where the diabolo lands before the throw affect the time the diabolo should spend on the string before thrown, but also 'angle of the string' or what ever is an important factor.

You could also lower your pattern by catching the diabs more on the left of your string or shortening the string (some high-tech sticks maybe :D) while doing that sweet three high. But those ways don't seem so natural.

I'm loosing track of my thoughts now, I was going to say something about high siteswaps and stringtime/-position. Maybe someone more experienced can cover that.

ps. After analyzing three diabolos high video material on my computer, I must say that I really like your pattern Arjan. Propably my favorite right after JiBes ;).




 

Arjan

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2007, 07:38:09 AM »
ps. After analyzing three diabolos high video material on my computer, I must say that I really like your pattern Arjan. Propably my favorite right after JiBes ;).

Thats a big compliment, thank you. I'm sure you will come back from that when you see my pattern now, it's crap, haven't practiced seriously for about 3 months now.

O how much I wish now to have a good cam and a nice gym to make a nice analyzing video about this.

martijn

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2007, 10:28:16 PM »
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mick! Realyl interesting topic. I never thought about dwell time in diabolo, but it makes great sense. It's good to understand what I'm doing now!

David - SAS1

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2007, 09:29:27 PM »
Now I've read the topic through twice to understand, I think it is very intruiging how the string length could be the factor that alters the pattern and arjan's point about how the height of the non dominant is proportional to the height of the pattern.  Good to think about it.
www.lufbrafever.co.uk fever - Loughborough University Juggling and Circus Society

Mick Lunzer

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2007, 09:09:53 PM »
Thanks for the input everyone, I really wasn't sure anyone would take me seriously on this, as it is not necessary to know any of this stuff to perform a diabolo trick. Thinking about it has really improved my game.

I liked Martijn's term  "Dwell Time"  I like that better than TOS (time on string)  Thanks Martijn.

I am wondering if anyone else has experimented with "Dwell time" and ESL (effective string length) and if the ideas hold up.

They do for me, but I have a bias because I am working out the theory as I experiment.

Has any one found that this stuff has no impact on how they aim or adjust?

-Mick

OLOBAID

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2007, 09:31:49 PM »
just knowing this has improoved my 2high, what i did felt not very different but my timing was better and so i had more time to aim!
im happy that my subconsciousness well recieved this TOS-info :)

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martijn

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2007, 09:41:09 PM »
I liked Martijn's term  "Dwell Time"  I like that better than TOS (time on string)  Thanks Martijn.

You're welcome. I know that's the term used in juggling, so I thought I'd mention it. Keep up the thinking! I'll try to use this theory to solve my high pattern problems.

Pete

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2007, 10:41:16 PM »
This is something i've thought about, but Mick summed it up in a better way than i have in my head before. Its not come to me in low so much, but it in high its important, as well as being quite interesting to play with, changing the size and shape of your pattern, particualrly 3 high. For instance you can change the height of your 3's in three high, without adding a larger gap between each diabolo. And by the same token you can shrink it, by using less of the string. Although its good practice for a pattern to use the whole string.
It can also be very useful in siteswaps when you make mistakes judging the height of a throw, but generally you I do this sub consciously, although now i see what i was doing it makes much more sense.
The tallest trees from acorns grow.

Mick Lunzer

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2007, 07:57:28 PM »
For those of you following this thread, I had an observation that changes the theory.

It's is about speed and distance traveled on the string rather than time spent on the string.

I have been going on the assumption that the time the diabolo spends on the string influences the trajectory, this is only partly true.
The time spent on the string can be easily varied (lowering our hand as we catch to slow the momentum or lifting the hands after the catch to speed up the momentum) This is another one of those things I have been doing for years and never thought about until today.

I was working on three high and I threw one diabolo too low. To catch up I accelerated the next diabolo (By pulling up with my right hand) on the string to make sure it traveled the distance on the string I wanted it to before I threw it.

This suggests that dwell time or time on the string is not as important as the distance the diabolo travels from stick to stick.

Here is the theory as it stands at the moment. This is for moving diabolos only. This does not include a static diabolo sitting in the center of the string.

-The distance the diabolo travels the ESL (effective string length) influences and may be the largest determining factor for trajectory (direction) of a thrown diabolo.

-Effective string length is determined by where you catch the diabolo on the string.  Catching a diabolo near the right hand stick gives you a longer ESL than if you catch it in the middle of the string or close to the left hand stick. (reverse is true for left handers)

Actual string length influences ESL (a longer actual string can give you a longer ESL.)

A diabolo thrown at the beginning of it's effective string length (early) will tend to travel to the left.  A diabolo thrown near the end of it's ESL will tend travel to the right.

Dwell time can be varied by lowering hands as you make a catch (slowing momentum) and raising hands after catch (accelerating momentum).

Thats all I got for now does this make sense? Does it match your own observations?

-Mick

martijn

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2007, 08:41:15 PM »
It sure makes sense to me. Thinking about what happens if I manipulate the diabolo's orbit as you described it, proves the theory :)

Matt

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2007, 06:41:51 AM »
Dear Mick-san,

The student has surpassed the teacher...again.  I'm still working that 3D high with some success.  It's funny that you talked about string length and such, as I just changed my string length about two weeks ago.  I remember Priam telling me (and it's visable on Diabology) that he shortened his string length dramatically to learn 3D high.  I got sick of plataeuing with 3D high, so in a fit of desperation, I changed the length to SUPER short.  I didn't get significantly longer runs, but it did break me out of my rut.  When I switched back to a normal length string, I started getting longer runs (40-50+ I think...).  Everything feels slower now and I've begun to concentrate on throw heights and the shape of the pattern.  My timing for 4440, 531, 441, and 42 is still wack, but it's coming.  Anyone else got some good siteswaps for 3D high? 

Mick, you are always thinking about his juggling, and that's just one of the things I dig about you.   

Peace y'all,

Matt

PS  Bringing up another thread, I'm currently working on 4 club Mills Mess in singles, 5 club singles, and some WICKED 4 box tricks.  And yet, 3D high and low definitely match up/surpass the difficulty of those tricks.  We just had a big debate at IJA about the difference about juggling vs. diabolos because Nagatake-san beat Nate Martin with diabolos when Nate was doing 5 club backcrosses. 
Many Thanks to Sean for all his work and inspiration.  Respect to the MFP!

Mick Lunzer

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Re: String Theory and Time
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2007, 05:02:04 AM »
Another thought on string length.
A longer string gives you the option of a longer dwell time. You can shorten this time by catching the diabolo closer to the center of a long string. With a short string you do not have an option to make dwell time longer.

This means a longer string is going to give you more options than a short string.

 

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