Author Topic: Excalibur History  (Read 12860 times)

Matt

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Excalibur History
« on: February 17, 2005, 05:47:51 PM »
Does anyone know who started the horizontal style of diabolo play now known as "excallibur"?  I'm curious about it because when I teach workshops on it inevitably someone asks about its origins.  

The first time I ever saw it was in 2003 at Svendborg EJC.  Andy P from Britain and Christoph from Europe were both doing it quite well.  

Speaking of which, how's it going all you Scottish Festival diabolo folks?  Any progress after our workshop?  

Matt
Many Thanks to Sean for all his work and inspiration.  Respect to the MFP!

Sean

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Excalibur History
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2005, 06:31:49 PM »
I remember Trash mentioning something about this on Jongle.net a while back... yes, it's here:

http://www.jongle.net/forum/index.php?topic=10383

He says that Ptit Vince thought of the name when he invented it... that he was surely the first to perform it on stage. Edit: he also states that it is quite possible that others also invented it separately.

There's a small section of Ptit Vince doing excalibur on diabology. It starts with a shot of him from above spinning around with a diabolo on his head winding up the string.

Any other excalibur diabolo historians out there? I've heard stories of some diabolists in the UK doing it a long time ago too.

Sean

JC

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Excalibur History
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2005, 07:07:06 PM »
I don´t know why you call it excalibur?
See the page from Vux
http://www.vux.fr.st/
He made the first video in September 2001
and called it Diabolo vertical.
www.diabolonet.de - email to: diabolo-kits@web.de
MONOBOLOS, Henrys Circus, Vision and MB Finesse with round shaped axles

seán_

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Excalibur History
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2005, 08:06:48 PM »
Quote from: Sean

Any other excalibur diabolo historians out there? I've heard stories of some diabolists in the UK doing it a long time ago too.

Sean


Andy P would be your man there and I believe that's going back to the mid nineties, I think he saw somebody doing it at an EJC.

As for the name, I'm not a particular fan of 'excallibur'. I always think of it as horizontal because of the direction off motion, others seem to think vertical because of the orientation of the diabolo.

Thanks for the Glasgow workshop Matt, It's not something I'm spending a lot of time on at the moment but your tips on the hand action have really helped. I'm hoping that when I get around to giving it some serious work that what you taught I can put into action. Also I hope to see the video Barnesy made to pick up what I missed/ wasn't at the stage to appreciate. I know Mattf is really into it and it's a pity he couldnt make it to Glasgow.

GbH

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Excalibur History
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2005, 10:09:50 PM »
Well, I started to learn diabolo in 1986 and it was certainly known about then.  At that time, the juggling stores in the UK regularly sold both rubber and Chinese style diabolos and I remember seeing the one-wheeled variety sometime being sold too.  I never actually got around to buying one, though.

Anyway, one of the tricks with the one-wheeled diabolo was to turn it on its side and then let it spin like a top on the floor or in your hand - a very basic version of an excaliber type more.  But I also remember seeing a video of a Chinese troupe doing an extended horizonal sequence with a single wheeled diabolo. This included various acrobatics done over the string as it moved around in a circle.  I know that people sometimes tried using rubber diabolos to do the same kind of horizontal tricks (well, probably not the top one ;0) ), but I can't think of anyone in the UK that worked on it seriously before Andy P.

If you want to know more about this diabolo-history stuff, I should think that the person you should be asking is Todd Strong.

Guy

Luke Burrage

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Excalibur History
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2005, 01:26:08 AM »
Quote from: seán_
Quote from: Sean

Any other excalibur diabolo historians out there? I've heard stories of some diabolists in the UK doing it a long time ago too.

Sean


Andy P would be your man there and I believe that's going back to the mid nineties, I think he saw somebody doing it at an EJC.

As for the name, I'm not a particular fan of 'excallibur'. I always think of it as horizontal because of the direction off motion, others seem to think vertical because of the orientation of the diabolo.



You are wrong, so is Matt. The movement of the diabolo has nothing to do with it.

In normal diabolo manipulation the diabolo goes up and down when thrown, side to side when whipped, round and round when doing orbits. It can also move forward and back... How can you lable all those as "vertical movement"? Surely the style should be classed by the orientation of the diabolo, in this case horizontal.

With excallibur the diabolo moves mainly in the horizontal plane but it can also be launched up or swung down (jumping over the string, anyone?).  Surely the style should be classed by the orientation of the diabolo, in this case vertical.


Anyway, back to the history of VERTICAL diabolo... I first tried it when I first tried loop diabolo, maybe as long ago as '98 or '99.  I didn't start off horizontal and transition up to vertical, instead I stuck it in the loop while it stood on the floor and started as well as I could from there. I never had  much success but saw someone at the BJC2k making it look easy.
Luke

Sean

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Excalibur History
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2005, 01:28:21 AM »
Hmmm, interesting stuff.

In fact, now that I think about it, I remember playing with excalibur diabolo back in the early 1990's having not seen others doing it. All I would do is get the diabolo vertical using horizontal whips and spin in circles until I fell over dizzy. :P

I'll bet that it was "invented" by dozens (or more) people separately. It's a reasonably obvious thing to try.

seán_

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Excalibur History
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2005, 02:23:19 AM »
Quote from: Luke Burrage
Quote from: seán_
Quote from: Sean

Any other excalibur diabolo historians out there? I've heard stories of some diabolists in the UK doing it a long time ago too.

Sean


Andy P would be your man there and I believe that's going back to the mid nineties, I think he saw somebody doing it at an EJC.

As for the name, I'm not a particular fan of 'excallibur'. I always think of it as horizontal because of the direction off motion, others seem to think vertical because of the orientation of the diabolo.



You are wrong, so is Matt. The movement of the diabolo has nothing to do with it.

In normal diabolo manipulation the diabolo goes up and down when thrown, side to side when whipped, round and round when doing orbits. It can also move forward and back... How can you lable all those as "vertical movement"? Surely the style should be classed by the orientation of the diabolo, in this case horizontal.

With excallibur the diabolo moves mainly in the horizontal plane but it can also be launched up or swung down (jumping over the string, anyone?).  Surely the style should be classed by the orientation of the diabolo, in this case vertical.


I might be mistaken but I wouldn't say I'm wrong.

I'm considering the plane as being the over riding thing here, in regular diaboloing I see the movements, being in the main, on a vertical plane. In *spits* excalibur, the movements are in the main on the horizontal plane.

Also when you loose it, the diabolo flys of towards the horizon, hitting a clubpasser on the back of the neck who then either stands on £30 worth of kit or disgruntedly kicks it away hard muttering under his breath about real juggling and forgetting how many times one of his missed catches has sent one of their clubs in your direction. ;)

As to a diabolos orientation, thats a different kettle of tea.  An argument could be made that a diabolo in its simplest form (like a standard Chinese one) is two wheels, on the vertical, connected by an axle. The main aim of using the diabolo (in the standard way) is to keep these two wheels in their vertical orientation to allow for tricks etc. A compelling argument could also be put forward as to why that  is wrong (or mistaken) as well.

So the diabolos orientation also has some ambiguity when it comes to naming the style as well.

Vertical or horizontal... both are better than excalibur anyway

el_grimley

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Re: Excalibur History
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2005, 07:50:59 PM »
Quote from: Matt
Does anyone know who started the horizontal style of diabolo play now known as "excallibur"?  I'm curious about it because when I teach workshops on it inevitably someone asks about its origins.

The first time I ever saw it was in 2003 at Svendborg EJC.  Andy P from Britain and Christoph from Europe were both doing it quite well.


Donald Grant was doing some I think, he was certainly doing those 3D suicides then. I was a doing a wee bit (as was my brother) but mostly it was a little trick before going to UFO grind as well as grinding to the vertical(or maybe horizontal) position (Which someone tried to get me to do with a renegade - which doesn't work).  Possibly its one of those things that lots of people 'invented' but kind of made formal that it existed at Svenbourg.

Personally I prefer "working in the XY plane" but thats the geek in me speaking out.

Quote
Speaking of which, how's it going all you Scottish Festival diabolo folks?  Any progress after our workshop?  


Working on those multiplexes, but I've got a passing partner now some I'm doing some high stuff instead for diabolos. Still after one of those Japanese toy things that was quite cool stuff.

Graham
Its got to be going home time. At least going to the pub time.

Chiok

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Re: Excalibur History
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2005, 08:25:03 PM »
Quote from: el_grimley

Still after one of those Japanese toy things that was quite cool stuff.

Graham


You talking about a Kendama?  They're quite interesting for a bit of sitting down idle play.  Not sure where you can get ones in the UK.  Guy Heathcote knows a bit about them, maybe he'd know.

As for a plane for the diabolo, I agree, it's probably ambivalent, since it's all about what you take as the reference plane.  I personally would think of the axle as it's the axis of rotation when idle (just sitting on the string).  So therefore when doing the "excalibur" it would be vertical as the axis of rotation is vertical.

Though if anyone calls it horizontal/vertical/excalibur diabolo, I'd assume the 90 degree alternative.  Maybe we should call it "Super Duper Active Anti-Gravity Diabolo" or SDAAGD for short....

Though I think everyone knows the style is called excalibur as is somewhat less ambiguous, how it got the name, who knows?

Chiok
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GbH

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Re: Excalibur History
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2005, 11:23:22 PM »
Quote from: xfirebladex
Quote from: el_grimley

Still after one of those Japanese toy things that was quite cool stuff.

Graham


You talking about a Kendama?  They're quite interesting for a bit of sitting down idle play.  Not sure where you can get ones in the UK.  Guy Heathcote knows a bit about them, maybe he'd know.

Chiok


Oh, so you want a Kendama do you?  They're currently quite tricky to find in the UK.  I know that Mini's been trying to source some for onward distribution, so you might want to find out where he's at with that.  Alternatively, you can order 'BC' models from the US, via a number of 'skill toy' websites (Infinite Illusions, Extreme Spin etc).  For links to a selection of these, see the yo-yo page on my site.

Also on my site is a separate Kendama page, which lists a few moves and tricks.  It's hardly comprehensive, but it'll give you a few ideas to get started with.  

Guy
http://www.guyheathcote.com

ronnie2tone

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Excalibur History
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2005, 02:33:57 PM »
Some alternative suggestions for verty/horizonty/excaliby diabolo names

Deeply Dangerous Diabolo
Posh Diabolo
Bob
Doin' the Twist


Hi Matt, not so much progress on the verty/horizonty/excaliby diabolo as I am still doing my head trying to nail that grind you showed me, I've started a fresh thread on the subject. Any advice would be appreciated.
Tossing the diabolo on a daily basis!

seán_

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Excalibur History
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2005, 03:00:24 AM »
Quote from: ronnie2tone


Deeply Dangerous Diabolo
Posh Diabolo
Bob
Doin' the Twist


Doing the twist

I had a few cracks at it today, I think I'm starting to get more of a feel for it now.

'Bob' is actually what I call the particular tangle you get when a hyperloop goes wrong. I'm sure you all know the one I mean.

Seán

Vojtas

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Excalibur History
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2005, 02:19:05 PM »
Quote from: JC
I don´t know why you call it excalibur?
See the page from Vux
http://www.vux.fr.st/
He made the first video in September 2001
and called it Diabolo vertical.


Yeah, but what is Vux doing isn't excalibur. He's just doing combos with suns but the diabolo isn't totally vertical...
What if the prophecy is true? What if tomorrow the war could be over? Isn't that worth fighting for? Isn't that worth dying for?
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Arjan

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Excalibur History
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2005, 04:12:55 PM »
Yes there are some excalibur movies up on Vux`s site. I just call it excalibur, and aviod all the confusion, shouldn`t we all?

seán_

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Excalibur History
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2005, 05:23:17 PM »
Quote from: Arjan
Yes there are some excalibur movies up on Vux`s site. I just call it excalibur, and aviod all the confusion, shouldn`t we all?


Thats a contentious issue :)

If I talk about it with a non diaboloist (or even some diaboloists) and I use the name 'exalibur' for the family of moves, I find myself having to explain what it is and having to try and explain why it is called that (which is not an easy thing to do) so thats hardly avoiding confusion

I just had a little look at the jongle.net thread on the history of the naming

Some of the names that predate excalibur include JiBe's 'vertical concept', Eriks 'lawn mower' and  also mention of diabolo in the 'horizontal plane'

unlike Sean, my bilinguilism is poor (as is my monolinguilism) but on the p'tit Vince naming I kind of see it that when he was on stage he got the diabolo on its side and shouted 'excalibuuuur'

Seán (still hating the name 'excalibur', liking 'horizontal', willing to answer to 'vertical axis' and being strongly drawn to 'lawn mower')

donald grant

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Excalibur History
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2005, 02:49:44 PM »
Sorry to be picking up on old threads, but I only just got here :D

Yes, way back in the mists of time (1992/93) we used to mess about with what is now called excalibur/ horizontal/ vertical stuff.  Rather than looping the string to tilt the diabolo, we used to just do continuous round the worlds using string correction.

Mostly, it was just used as a means to get into a gyro grind, but occasional whipcatches and suicides as well.  I do seem to recall Andy P being rather good at it.

Also, as Guy pointed out the chinese have been doing stuff like it for a long time with one-wheelers and saucepan lids.  Somewhere I've got some cool old VHS of a chinese girl doing suacepan lid with horizontal tricks, acrobatics and even a rather cool throw to spin on the foot.

Donald
(in a"sitting by the fireside talking 'bout the good old days" theme.)

Hoop

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Excalibur History
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2005, 05:24:02 PM »
Long, long ago, there was a move so incredible, so magical, so amazing it could only be pulled off by someone worthy of being a diabolo king.  They called it Excalibur, or was it Quadruple sprinkler sun suicide?

DaviD Brackpool

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Re: Excalibur History
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2008, 03:28:12 PM »
Does anyone know who started the horizontal style of diabolo play now known as "excallibur"?  I'm curious about it because when I teach workshops on it inevitably someone asks about its origins.  

The first time I ever saw it was in 2003 at Svendborg EJC.  Andy P from Britain and Christoph from Europe were both doing it quite well.  

Speaking of which, how's it going all you Scottish Festival diabolo folks?  Any progress after our workshop?  

Matt


ive got it really well and have landed 2 genocides from it thanks alot for teaching it to me its helped alot.

(f you dont now who i am im the boy with a red finnesse who asked you at the end if youve ever seen that ground trick by william wei lang)
by the time you've finished reading this you've wasted roughly 8 seconds of your life.

DaviD Brackpool

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Re: Excalibur History
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2008, 03:31:09 PM »

ive got it really well and have landed 2 genocides from it thanks alot for teaching it to me its helped alot.

(f you dont now who i am im the boy with a red finnesse who asked you at the end if youve ever seen that ground trick by william wei lang)

im talking about your last paragraph by the way sorry i didnt say that
by the time you've finished reading this you've wasted roughly 8 seconds of your life.

 

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