Controversy of diabolo styles

[J_J777]

I was looking at how people were reacting to my new video and there were some positive some negative.  I'm suprised at how much controversy that my video has caused, especially on www.giocoleria.org.  Even though I don't speak italian, I've used a translator to get the basic gist of the conversation.  One side says that my tricks are boring and that it's all been done before.  The other says that it's technically good. 

I feel that if there weren't diaboloists that were technically proficent then the room for the creativeness would be much lower.  When Guy (I think he was the first to do 3...)  did 3 diabolos, that opened the door for so many new tricks.  People claimed that 3 diabolos was a fad and that all 3 diabolo tricks were inferior to 2 diabolo and 1 diabolo combos.  I think that's completely bogus, I mean, there are beautiful 3 diabolo tricks i.e.  Jacob's feed the sun combos, Tahia's box, William's crazy 3 diabolo sun to armstall work.  Why can't people who like 3 diabolo tricks get the same credit and appreciation as people who work 2 and 1?  I feel that as people get more and more comfortable with 3 diabolos, it'll become the new "2 diabolo" and people working on 4 will get flamed.

Technical diaboloists aren't just generic diaboloists, they can push the boundaries of diabolo further and further causing more opportunities.  If we didn't push the boundaries, we'd still be doing only one diabolo and have never even heard of vertax.  I know my video didn't quite push the boundaries very far or even at all.  I feel that though I can keep working on it like many other diaboloists to increase the variety of tricks that can be done with 3 diabolos.

Some people have called it boring and stale.  Some people have flamed vertax for basically no reason at all despite the fact that vertax passing is often praised but I don't want to digress.  I remember back when I started that 1 diabolo combos were all the rage and all the combos look vaguely like antonin or vux.  Wouldn't that be boring to watch too or are people just hating on 3 diabolos? 

I just needed to get that out there.  *mutters and let the flaming begin...

Josh

[cpai]

I agree with much of what you say, but your video does contain a bit too much 3 diabolo. About 7/8 of it was 3d and vertax, and in my opinion that is a bit too much.

[Sharpes]

I think that you can't ask any diaboloist to cater their practice times to your desires. If someone mostly practices 3d and vertax (or 1d and 2d), then they will want to make a video of 3d and vertax. when you ask for more of other styles in their videos, you're in a way telling them what they should practice and what they should enjoy. Commend people on being well-rounded, perhaps, but don't tell people what they spend their time doing.

In my opinion, innovation is something that is only very rarely truly achieved. A new combo with 1 or 2 is not necessarily innovative. I think only a few people have really been innovative recently; Busk, diabolumberto, and Pranay come to mind. but with 3, the tricks are orders of magnitude harder to achieve, such that tricks in new directions are generally incredibly difficult to get clean even once, never mind with consistency. A video such as Josh's shows true talent and dedication, and a skill level with 3 low that few have reached. Is he at a higher level than everybody else in any one area? no. but in 3 diabolo, that's what it takes to be "innovative", because there are so few tricks. Is Pranay at a higher skill level than, say, diabolumberto in any area? I would say no (no offense, you two are truly incredibly talented), but because their area of expertise is 1 and 2 diabolo, he is able to come up with new, interesting tricks. So I would say that Josh's 3 diabolo is comparable to Pranay's 1 and 2 diabolo, and yet Josh gets flamed. I think that this is unfair.

that's just my 2 cents at 1:41 AM as I'm about to start a short paper, with class at 9:00 tomorrow.

[garner]

so you've released a video and you've got a mix of responses and now you're unhappy because it wasn't all praise? that's the basis of what i got out of that convoluted post.

what's stopping you making up new tricks with 3d? i'd say nothing. nothing but a fear of how hard you think it might be and a strange need to do all the 3d tricks that have been done before.
zacks made tricks for 3d that match his style and so has pete. i've even made a couple of 3d tricks and i can't even shuffle.

my feelings on technicality are that is should come with creativity and innovation .not on its own. i've found myself learning entirely new ways to move my body/arms/sticks/whatever just to get tricks from my head into the real world and in doing so it increases my technical ability whilst still having the creative concept.

i'll give you this, it can be beneficial to learn generic tricks if your idea may require it. in which case you'd not want to show off that trick until you'd made it your own.
...and unfortunately i've found myself doing some tricks that aren't my own but they aren't the sort of tricks that i'm going to put in a video.

ultimately, i think this was another useless thread to serve josh some self-gratification. if you want to do tricks that have done then you should already know that your going to be slated by some people. it may be 'hard' but its not new.

Garner.

[Sharpes]

Garner, you're telling Josh what he should enjoy doing, can you see how this is rude?

[J_J777]

No, this isn't because it wasn't all praise but I feel that technical diaboloists are being bashed.  I feel that they should get the same respect as "innovative" diaboloists.  Remember Tony Frebourg?  Everyone always thought that even though his tricks were really hard and they pushed the boundaries of diabolo really far, they still only think he's mediocre compared to other "innovative" diaboloists.  I feel that he should also be admired just as much as say Pranay and that his videos aren't "boring".

There's nothing stopping me from coming up with new tricks with 3.  I'm saying that as techinically minded diaboloist, I'm going to try to do my best to push the boundaries with 3 diabolos yet with everyone saying that 3 diabolos is stale and a fad is quite unfair.  I agree that creativity has a place in diabolo but technicality does too.

You argued that creativity enhanced your technical skill.  I'm saying that technique will help your creative skill (you can go read it in my original post).

This thread wasn't just about me but for all technical diaboloists out there.   I've already been noticing this for a long time...

Josh

[Duncan]

I'm not sure where you're seeing the controversy here in .ca. One post in your video's thread said "it was hella boring." If that's a lot of controversy, then perhaps a change in perspective is needed - the general overview was that people liked the video. Hell, my wrap accelerations with 3low suddenly improved after watching your pattern, so I approve of it.

I agree that there is maybe more dislike for the video on the Italian forum, but people are going to have their own opinions on any matter. Garner has his own mindset on what diabolo is for, and you, Josh, have your own.

For example, if I had a choice between whether I'd want to watch someone like Viktor Kee or Anthony Gatto, it would be a tough choice, but I would still go for Kee simply because I enjoy an act with more action and dynamic motion and artistry than a straight technical demonstration - and I'm not knocking Anthony Gatto at all. It's all about preference, and, unfortunately, you've met up against some people who have a different preference.

Technical diabolo has its place and I enjoy watching a technical diabolo routine from time to time. It's fun to see such a high level of skill being put on display, which you have done. That said, you didn't appeal to all audiences because you didn't aim to all audiences - you have a set group in mind with your video and the response on the Italian forum shows this.

Don't be discouraged because you can't please all. Plenty of people like it and no one has said that you suck. Your skill level is incredibly high and the video shows how solid you have become.

-Duncan

[willum89]

What i'm getting out of this is that you want everyone to approve of your style and support you as you try and further develop 3d. I don't believe a single person has the full support of the diabolo community for the area they're interested in exploring and furthering. You should just keep doing what you enjoy and not care about those who are bashing you. you shouldn't be trying to match up to Tony Frebourg or Pranay. Diabolo is not a popularity contest, you should be doing it for yourself.

Also you said that you got praise for your video which means you're doing something right and some people back you. I think you need to think about why you're actually doing diabolo. I personally just enjoy it, i'm nowhere close to being as skilled as many of the people on this forum but I'm sure I have just as much fun just doing the simple tricks i know and working on a couple harder tricks. I don't know about anybody else but when I practice i'm having so much fun that 3 hours can pass in what feels like 20 minutes.

From what I've picked up from this thread it seems to me like you're doing it and trying to get everyone's approval which i personally don't believe is a good reason but ultimately it's up to you, just think about it, you might have more fun if you just quit worrying and just do it for your own personal enjoyment. it's very unlikely that you will have everyone admiring you but if you someday achieve that I commend you and your dedication.

[J_J777]

See, I agree with your view point Duncan.  You enjoy both the styles of creativity and technical diaboloing.  Yet you don't knock technical diaboloing despite liking creative diaboloing over technical diaboloing.  That's what I'm saying.  Don't flame technical diaboloing and just let respect it as a personal choice on how that person chooses to diabolo.  Thanks for your post.

Willium, I guess your also right too.  I guess that not everyone will agree with my point of view on technical diaboloing...  I see what your saying but I just want technical diaboloing to get the respect that it deserves which probably can't happen unfortunately from all...  thanks for the new perspective.

Josh

[barnesy]

To me, this just raises the question 'What are all these videos for?'.    While I like to watch a good  and well made video, I'm also interested in the subject matter and in that respect I don't care about cinematography or if there's enough 1d stuff, and I can fast forward through the vertax bits. 

Yes, I've seen most of the tricks in there before, but I find it interesting to see the same 3d stuff done by different people as it's never quite the same.   Like Duncan, I think some of that video has helped me.  I think the people saying what should be in these videos need to lighten up.  (Not that I should be telling them what they should be doing, of course...)

[Matt?]

Surely in a video you would want to display all of the areas your are proficient in? It's fair to say that you enjoy 3d (or technical diabolo, even though i despise that phrase) so kudos to you for showing what you like. But on the other hand, i imagine you enjoy 1d and 2d as well, as its is obvious from you posts that you appreciate them, so why not show more of that? IMO, you should have found a better balance between 1, 2 and 3d tricks, even if this meant extending the video to accommodate them. I would have loved to have seen more of your 1 and 2d stuff, from what i saw, it was pretty sweet.

I think its important for all diabolists to remember to go back to the basics sometimes and to break things down.

Matt. xx

[barnesy]

What's all this 'should' business about?  Saying what you like to see is fair enough, but if you're saying what should be in videos like this one, I think you're missing the point completely.

If I was going to make a video (no chance of that with the responses people on here come out with, even though I like to make stuff up as much as I like to follow others), I would probably go with a similar approach to this one - I'd show the stuff that I've been learning lately and which I currently find interesting.  I don't have the time for all the diabolo stuff I'd like to work on, so I pick and choose the things I do.  I like to watch 1d stuff, and have a healthy respect for all the people who are way beyond my level at it, but it's not something that has ever held my attention.

I'm having a good time with it all and I don't see why the direction I choose should be set by a bunch of wannabe film critics.

[Matt?]

alright, it was just an opinion, but what does that count for?

[Sharpes]

yay barnesy.

and stop calling me shirley

[Beni]

When you say technical diaboloists are getting flames your saying you and Tony Frebourg (and I've never heard any criticism of Tony - may be I haven't been around in the diabolo world long enough).
What about people like Garner, Nick, Nev and all the 3rd base crew. I'd call them 'technical', yet they don't get flamed or if they do they don't seem to care much.
Remember that a successful video reflects on stuff that has rarely or never been seen. I'm afraid if everyone posted everything they've learnt we'd get the I've Just Learnt thread video version (plus a lot more) which wouldn't be very entertaining. 
There aren't shoulds and shouldn'ts in videos, and nobody should stop you making them, but really it's the viewer's opinion and if they weren't inspired/entertained/rushing off to find their diabolo then you can't hold it against them.
And people replying aren't dictating what people should do and learn - but whether they should post that. You can do 3 diabolo 'till the cows come home if you want Josh, no-one's stopping you.

Oh and I thought your video was great!

and stop calling me shirley

Is that an Airplane reference?

[-Leo-]

I have to say I don't see why there is a great divide between technical and creative diaboloists. Sure they both intertwine? For something to be creative now, it generally has to be quite technical anyway.

Tips or pointers from others are often useful to better yourself but if you don't want to hear them that's fine. Just don't post a thread telling people off for trying to help you doing something better (in their eyes anyway.)

Have fun with it and do what you want to do,

-Leo

BTW: Don't tell me off for my opinion as I don't need you telling me what my opinion ought to be. See why issue isn't really an issue at all?

[garner]

Garner, you're telling Josh what he should enjoy doing, can you see how this is rude?

i'm not telling him what to do. i'm pointing out the way i feel and asking him a question. if you notice right at the bottom of my post you'll see the goal of my post, in whats generally called a conclusion, that he is going to get critised. period. and there is nothing anyone can do about it. just as we all get critised

No, this isn't because it wasn't all praise but I feel that technical diaboloists are being bashed.  I feel that they should get the same respect as "innovative" diaboloists.  Remember Tony Frebourg?  Everyone always thought that even though his tricks were really hard and they pushed the boundaries of diabolo really far, they still only think he's mediocre compared to other "innovative" diaboloists.  I feel that he should also be admired just as much as say Pranay and that his videos aren't "boring".

i also missed out a little bit in my post about 3d...i don't see tahia getting slated, i don't see william getting flamed. tony doesn't get the same respect because he isn't a very nice person. he is mediocre only because he performs to the public and knows what they like and not what diabolists like. none of tonys videos are boring.

There's nothing stopping me from coming up with new tricks with 3.  I'm saying that as techinically minded diaboloist, I'm going to try to do my best to push the boundaries with 3 diabolos yet with everyone saying that 3 diabolos is stale and a fad is quite unfair.  I agree that creativity has a place in diabolo but technicality does too.


You argued that creativity enhanced your technical skill.  I'm saying that technique will help your creative skill (you can go read it in my original post).

so your saying you want to push the limits of 3d. THEN DO IT! why are you not doing your own 3d instead of tricks that aren't your own (you can go read it in my original post). personally i don't ever hear people saying that 3d is a fad unless they're joking. i don't think people were saying 3d is stale. i think they were saying your style is stale. i also think that technicality has a place in the world (you can go read it in my original post).

i'm saying that technical diabolo doesn't help creativity because you get concept of right and wrong ways to do the trick.

I'm not sure where you're seeing the controversy here in .ca. One post in your video's thread said "it was hella boring." If that's a lot of controversy, then perhaps a change in perspective is needed - the general overview was that people liked the video. Hell, my wrap accelerations with 3low suddenly improved after watching your pattern, so I approve of it.

so maybe he'd be better posting tutorials for tricks that bother people. maybe josh could cut up the video and throw the bits in the tutorial section where i'm sure i'd love them to be.

Willium, I guess your also right too.  I guess that not everyone will agree with my point of view on technical diaboloing...  I see what your saying but I just want technical diaboloing to get the respect that it deserves which probably can't happen unfortunately from all...  thanks for the new perspective.

now why couldn't you have said that to yourself before you made another thread serving no purpose. to realise something that everybody should know already seems to be a step foward for you.

alright, it was just an opinion, but what does that count for?

yea, since when do people actually hear more than "i don't like it" or "i like that" from guys like us. and then they continue posting without reading our justifications.

What about people like Garner, Nick, Nev and all the 3rd base crew. I'd call them 'technical', yet they don't get flamed or if they do they don't seem to care much.

well i wouldn't actually put myself to the same standards as nick and nev but its true that i don't really care if i get shouted at for how i do diabolo. me and nev have had our fall outs over diabolo but it hasn't changed the way we diabolo at all.

garner (long, angry day at work).

[nicodemus]

Everybody's gotta hate. I don't care if someone else has done it before, 3d by itself is an accomplishment, as are any of the tricks in it, and the time that people put into it, and the time they put into making a video should be respected, whether or not you care for the way they do it.

[Pete]

Meaty thread we've got here. Theres some good content coming out here but i think we all need to take a step back for a second. Theres always gonna be controversy over diabolo styles. Whether its about vertax, bearings, high 1d, 2d, or technical diabolo, whatever that is (as matt says, its  not a great term to use). What is technical diabolo?

You can't expect to tell people what to do and not have them be a little annoyed. A video is a way of showing off your skills, for a great number of people thats ultimately what diabolo/juggling/performing of any kind, is about. Showing off. You're good at what you do because you practice, you practice because you enjoy it. If you enjoy a particular area of diabolo more, you practice it more, so you get better at it. When you show it to the masses you expect criticism, expect the worst and make the best of the good (that way it always seems better than you thought  ). When the criticism comes, take it, do what you want with it, learn from it, ignore it, whatever, but don't whine about it. Josh, people expressed their views at your video. One person from what i can see, said it was boring. Then you started a thread about creativity/innovation vs technical/difficult, which has lead to heated debate. Essentially this thread is the result of ONE negative post. Essentially, what i'm saying is, stop whining. Your gonna take **** whatever, so why bother complaining when you do. And that goes for most opinions on most subjects. Everyone has their own opinion on everything, whether you like it or not. (thats not just aimed at Josh, goes for everyone really, including me)

Personally, i enjoy both, or neither depending on how you look it at.


And bearings are still rubbish lol joking.

[martijn]

Oh come one y'all, don't turn this all into a big problem. Keep it fresh, play and have fun. Don't worry too much about insignificant things like this 'debate' (it's only that, because people make an issue out of it).