3 Diabolos Low: Throw Start, Anyone?

[Matt Pang]

I'm learning 3 diabolos at the moment, my best run so far has been about 6 catches (2 Cycles).

I'm using the "old skool" throw in start at the moment, the only other person i've seen use it is Guy Heathcote, i was just wondering if there is anyone else out there trying the good old throw start? Or does everyone think the wrap start is the way forward...

Cheers,

Matt P

[Arjan]

Hey, I never had a good 3 diabs low run. But all the peeps who have, seem to be using the wrap. I think the throw in is harder, in multiple ways.
You have to time right. You have to line up nice. You have to have a good throw, with much speed and accuracy.
But still, 3 diabs is a very hard thing. I practice for a long time, and never had the feeling I could do it.

[norbi]

Throw-ins are old school, wrap starts are the way forward. Check the vid of Guy Heathcote doing the throw start on Barnsey's site. But i tell ya, wraps are where its at. Theres a reason people use it.

[Sean]

The main advantage of the wrap start with 3 - or so I've been told by people who can do both a throw in and a wrap - is the extra speed the wrap start gives your third diabolo. Baptiste showed me how he can do a start that begins with a stopover on the right stick (for righties) and both sticks held in the left hand with the diabolo thrown in with the right hand. Apparently once he thought of that he could do it almost right away, but he still uses the wrap start because of the speed aspect. And if you're going to be doing 3 diabolos in an asynch style, the speed of your third diabolo is going to be the limiting factor (assuming you can keep them on the string that is - not me ).

Sean

[Matt Pang]

Sounds like i may have to get used to the wrap start!

Thanks for the comments!

Matt p

[Tahia]

well there is 2 differents wrap start!!! if you or other people want to see my start (not the same that diabolumberto!!) ask for me !!

[norbi]

go on then, show us.

[kamikace]

tahia,I love the way you start with two diabolos, I´m interesting in learnt it. Despite this, I want when I have to put up the wrap diabolo (the exactly moment). Thanks!

[Tahia]

hello sorry for the late well for my start you can ask for sean! he has a video of my start !!
and sure here's a the moment !! but i can't say when cause i do that too autotmaticaly !! so you've to watch!! i'll try to film a tutorial soon;) i promise

[kamikace]

thanks Tahía!  

[Powerade]

Hey guys!!
I don't know if this is the right thread... if not, please post a better!

I have 2 henrys jazz and want to learn to play with 3 diabolos. I always hear that to play with jazz is harder then to play with circus. now my question is: would you buy three circus or only a 3rd jazz?

[tetsuya]

everybody forgot my tutorial???

[Loriot]

I do a throw start too. But I make a trapeze and then I throw the third diabolo in. You have to unwrap the trapeze first and then you have to do the movement. I do the throw start, because I wasn't able to do three diabolos with the wrap start . I can shuffle three diabolos for nearly 20 sec. now   .

[martijn]

everybody forgot my tutorial???

Not at all! => http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=718

[GbH]

I guess I should say something here.

Although I don't/can't do the wrap start myself, it seems obvious to me that it's the easier option.  There are less variables involved and there seems to be less to go wrong.  Sure, there's timing issues with both, but with the throw start there are also positional and height factors that don't apply when you've got a wrap.

Since I've gotten used to the white-hub'd Henrys diabolos, my consistency with the start has improved greatly.  It's not unknown for me now to have a practice session where every start attempt works fine (it didn't used to be like this...).   However, I still have days where I'm tired, nervous or just plain out of practice, all of which can dramatically affect my ability to do a clean throw start.  The usual problem is that my initial throw is out of position or the wrong height - basically, muscle memory letting me down.  Being a natural 'sync' person, the slow spin is not an issue for me.

You may wonder why I persist with it.  There's probably some truth in the saying "You can't teach old dogs new tricks".  But there's something more - I like the way it looks much better than the wrap start.  To me, there's something a bit more magical about being able to throw the third one straight in, without the need for interim fiddling about.

Whilst I understand why people are recommending the wrap start (it's what I'd suggest to a beginner, too...), it saddens me to see people trying to discourage the use of the throw start.  Throw starts do work and, in my eyes, look good too.  

Just thought I'd stand my ground, even if I am in a minority.


Guy

[donald grant]

Yay Guy, you stand your ground!!!

Seriously, having seen both starts (and masterered neither!), you've got to admit that they both work, and are totally different tricks.

The wrap start certainly seems to have a higher success rate, but the throw in looks cooler, in my opinion.  If in doubt, learn 'em both!

"New" versions of tricks aren't automatically superior: which would you rather see, a modern-day double sprinkler-to-double suicide out, or the original we-didn't-know-any-better-back-then two diabolo double suicide on open string???

Just an old bloke letting his mind wander.....

Donald

[arnie]

Just two things that puzzle me (aimed at Donald and Guy) and this is out of curiosity and not a criticism.  Firstly, Guy, I can see why you want to stick with the way you start, but does it not interest you to try out new techniques of starting? You were one of (or the) first to do three low, there must have been a side of you that wants to push the limits of diabolo that bit further otherwise you would never have thrown that third diabolo on in the 1st place. A similar thing interests me about Donald, again you have very interesting tricks and are very slick with one and two, I've never even seen you attempting three, I am wondering if this is a case of you not being interested in learning it?

Cheers

Steve

[GbH]

Just two things that puzzle me (aimed at Donald and Guy) and this is out of curiosity and not a criticism.  Firstly, Guy, I can see why you want to stick with the way you start, but does it not interest you to try out new techniques of starting? You were one of (or the) first to do three low, there must have been a side of you that wants to push the limits of diabolo that bit further otherwise you would never have thrown that third diabolo on in the 1st place. A similar thing interests me about Donald, again you have very interesting tricks and are very slick with one and two, I've never even seen you attempting three, I am wondering if this is a case of you not being interested in learning it?

Cheers

Steve

Steve,

A few years back now (2001?), I was paid a visit, here in Southampton, by a French diabolo player called Ludovitch Soeur (http://troisdiabolos.free.fr/).  He had been working hard on trying to learn 3low and wanted to see whether I could help him.  This was some time before the MFP became known to me and, in fact, before I'd seen anyone else at all that could do 3low.  Anyway, when I saw what Ludo was trying, I was more than a bit surprised - it was what would become known as the wrap start.  Immediately I was interested, as it seemed to open the way for variations I hadn't really considered before.  However, there was a problem - there was no way I was going to get it working with my Renegades and thick nylon string.    The equipment wouldn't allow me to do any kind of wrap at all.  And so, not wanting to give up with the Renegades, I just carried on what I was doing.

It's only in the last year or so that I've managed to ditch the Renegades and replace them with something I'm equallly comfortable with.  In that time, I've worked on improving my throw start and have experimented with the wrap start, too.  The only trouble is, my determination to learn new things isn't what it was and the wrap start, now being commonplace and not exactly a necessity for me, is fairly low on my wish list.  Right now, I'm much more interested in trying suns or controlled high throws.  Or, perhaps more to the point, in playing with completely different toys altogether.

Maybe, some day, I'll learn the wrap start too.  Maybe I won't.  I certainly have no compulsion to learn stuff just because someone else is doing it.  In fact, it's often disappointing to see so many people striving to achieve what is pretty much the same end result.  Isn't one of the cool things about juggling supposed to be the opportunity for individuality and invention?  

Guy

[donald grant]

Hi Steve

My history with three diabolos ain't so illustrious as Mr Heathcote's.  That's the reason I asked him to contribute material for the "Two Hot to Handle" book, way back in 1993.  In fact, that book came out at the EJC in Leeds and I have some very funny video of Guy trying to explain his three low, with his diabolos laid out on the floor, to a rather confused and admiring group of myself, Todd Strong and Ralf Runde.  Jurassic footage, and no mistake!

I did learn three high for a while way back in 94/ 95 when I was training in Montreal.  Not much, just put 'em up and finish clean.  It never went into the number though, because:
a) it felt a bit "token"; crazy one diabolo, crazy two diabolo, then ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping catch catch catch with three.  
b) the piece was already around 7 minutes, quite long enough, so I just left it out.

Since then, most of the diabolo I do is in shows.  The number has been tightened down to 6 minutes 27 seconds, so there's even less space for it on stage.  

Also, when I'm working, I find it's not a good idea to do more than about an hour of intensive practice in the day as it tends to knacker your arms for the evening show.

All feeble enough excuses, maybe like Guy said, it comes down to how much you really want.  Then again, I've got a couple of months off just now and three Henrys in the corner, mocking me.  Perhaps I'll give it a go (with the wrap start ) and let you know how it goes......

All the best
Donald

[GbH]

Hi Steve

My history with three diabolos ain't so illustrious as Mr Heathcote's.  That's the reason I asked him to contribute material for the "Two Hot to Handle" book, way back in 1993.  In fact, that book came out at the EJC in Leeds and I have some very funny video of Guy trying to explain his three low, with his diabolos laid out on the floor, to a rather confused and admiring group of myself, Todd Strong and Ralf Runde.  Jurassic footage, and no mistake!

*shudders*

[arnie]

Thanks Donald and Guy, think that answers my questions really well I won't hassle you anymore! Well maybe a little bit for that footage  

[TimEllis]

I was diaboloing with Wes Peden today, and he asked if I had seen anyone do a sprinkler (however many stacked it would take) suicide exit and throw in the third diabolo while the stick is flying around.  So now I pose the same question to you.

[seán_]

yeah I've seen that from very close up, just one revoloution of 3 because the person who did it is bad at 3.

I was keeping quiet about it because in the long term i wanted to try again and get it on film, the last time I worked on it spink gave up filming the try before i managed that 1 rev.

I found you I needed to use a double and to have the diabolo in my mouth to have any chance of getting close to it. also the best attempt happened when the two diabbolos stalled out for a tad on the exit.

[dave from the grave]

i just thought that the start does not matter? surley if it works then all good. ive been working on a quick start though where you throw the thired directly into the pattern.

[Tom Derrick]

I've found that the anti fast start (or whatever they called it on Diabology) is possible with three, but it requires being able to do a wrap start and being able to run three afterwards, both of which elude me.
Basically, you get two diabolos shuffling, put both sticks into your left (for right-handers) hand in a V shape, then pick up the third diabolo with the middle finger aroung the axle, then throw down and to the left. A suprisingly large proportion of the time, it'll circle under the other diabolos and reach your right stick, which is when you wrap it, then go into the shuffle as you would with the wrap start.
I'm expecting a video by Monday

[Duncan]

I've been working on a fast start as well (unsuccessfully). I usually wait till one hits the right string before throwing the one in the hand into the shuffle. I figure the only reason it doesn't work is because I suck at 3d. I bet Zack or Dekel could probably make it work after a few tries.

-Duncan

[Dennis]

hi you!

I try 3d low for two weeks now and I've made a little progress! I can do 5-7 otts now!
But the wrap start isn't certain right now so I decided to try another start!

Do you think the throw start is much more difficult than the wrap start or the trapez start? Or is the throw start okay?

I want to try the throw start but I don't know what I have to consider!
I think it's important to catch the third diabolo very close to the right stick and then to open the arms widely! Is that correct??

thanks for all your answers and help!

Dennis

p.s: I think of something like this: http://www.2diabolo.net/media/guystarting3diabolos.mpg

[Duncan]

I've merged your topic with this old one, Dennis. There's a few posts on the first page of this thread which might answer your question, especially by Guy.

[Marko]

Actually, i'm practicing the 3d low with a throw start. I started like 5 months ago
and decided to give it practice time 20mins/session (so 1hour a week). I'm not sure
how fast people usually get 3d low going but it actually feels sometimes like banging
your head against the wall.

Most of my progress i made in first month (to ott 9), but since that it has been depressing.
And my throw is really solid, as started diaboloing before millenium i learned everything with
a throw first. So my wraps tart is really horrible even with 2d. I think  i'm going to stick with
the throw start even if i agree on wrap start being easier. Maybe something good will come
out of it. I'll let you know when i get it, hopefully before the next millenium...

So to Dennis, it could be faster to learn it with a wrap. But you're not alone. There are others
honoring the old school as well.

[William]

Never forget the trapeze start. Its easy to learn and you'll get the start perfect everytime as soon as you can get it.

[Dennis]

@William: Yeah, I tried the trapeze start lots of times but the diabolo in the trapez always slips down and courses a crash!
What do I do wrong?

Please help me,

Dennis

[William]

I recently wrote about this - today.

How well the trapeze will hold is dependant on what sticks you are using. But you can use any sticks theoretically. My guess would be you're using Xtremes. The only thing I can thing of is try to keep the stick (with the trapeze around it) pointing at the axle, hopefully this'll stop it slipping down.

With my carbons a trapeze worked fine first time I ever tried it. I keep the my thumb inbetween the two sticks to keep them apart. So try that.

Hopefully this helps Dennis. Here is the thread which will help you with Starting 3 low from a Trapeze: 3D Trapeze Start Tutorial. This thread is alot better for helping you. Have a look at the video.

[Dennis]

oh, sry, I didn't see that!

Thanks a lot for your help, William!