Author Topic: Applying siteswaps to passing  (Read 13896 times)

vch

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« on: February 22, 2005, 07:06:46 PM »
I have read the whole article about siteswaps on www.artofdiabolo.com but there are not enough information about passing. I understand examples but there are more difficult creations which I cannot write as a siteswap numbers :?  

For examples:

1) from 4:40 to 4:50 min in http://priampierret.free.fr/artofdiabolo.com/OpenStageMFP.wmv when JiBe is throwing some diabolos to Baptiste and some of them just above him.

2) pirouette of one juggler in passing with 3 or 4 diabolos and then continue passing

3)Priam's aerial whip in passing with 3 diabolos

Finally last question:
Why is there throw of one juggler higher than the other?? I think it is possible if the height of throw of both jugglers is same - It's same as juggling with balls...

Sean

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2005, 07:39:59 PM »
Good question. I find passing siteswap interesting... too bad I have no one to pass with. :(

Well to begin with, yes, 2 person diabolo passing can be often thought of as the same as ball siteswaps with 2 hands.

I get a bit lost when you get into the half beat siteswaps such as: 1.5p | 2.5p or even other non-integer values such as 1.33. I know it refers to a different gap length between passes, but I don't think I get it after that.

JiBe: Help! ;)

Arjan

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2005, 07:59:34 PM »
3 and more diabolo passing is in fact a half shower. There is no cascade involved. 1 person starts throwing 2 diabolo`s high (3 diabolo passing this is) and throws a diabolo to the next person. The next person was waiting with a spinning diabolo, and just doing nothing. So when the starter has passed the first diabolo, he makes a sun with the second. The other person passes his diabolo underneath the thrown first pass, and makes a sun with the first recieving pass... JiBe will tell more about it, also Diabology will help. But I followd the workshop in Ypres.. it`s so simple.
The basic pattern isn`t really hard. Just don`t forget to make suns, for timing.

Indeed, JiBe, teach us some more things :)

seán_

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Re: Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2005, 08:13:14 PM »
Quote from: vch

Finally last question:
Why is there throw of one juggler higher than the other?? I think it is possible if the height of throw of both jugglers is same - It's same as juggling with balls...


Having had this disscussion on rec.juggling a while ago the main reason for passing this way is to allow the diabolo to keep spin. You can pass three in a true cascade but not for as long

vch

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2005, 09:05:49 PM »
I and my brother can do 3 diabolos passing (without suns) as long as we want (theoretically) and we are both throwing diabolos to same height with the same power... (If we use as much of string as possible it gets good spin.) I don't know if it is trully cascade, but I would not write different siteswap numbers for each person in this case - that is what I mean in previous "last question".

Does anybody know siteswap numbers of my previous examples??

I have seen Diabology (many times) and I haven't find answers for theese questions. Neither in educational part nor in freestyle siteswaps clip.

There is another interesting siteswap on Diabology (which I can't write in numbers):
3 jugglers (JiBe, Baptiste, Priam) are passing with 4 diabolos changing only one and the other ones which has each of them on the string just throw above him, when is the only changing one going to him.....Ooohh it's ****ing hell to write it!!I hope you understand and know, what I exactly mean. My English sucked-sorry

I think that waiting for JiBe is the best way for us just now...

Sharpes

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2005, 03:32:42 AM »
As an alternative to siteswap, I've found ladder notation very useful when writing down siteswap patterns. You can stagger throws or have them at the same time, I just put down two lines of dots (either next to one another or staggered) and connect as I see fit. Becomes interesting when you try to put this on the computer... :) I've found it helpful though
Jacob and Nate Sharpe

Tom_G

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2005, 07:59:35 AM »
I think the siteswap for both a cascade and half shower are 333, the difference being that in a half shower one person always throws under the diabolo thrown by the other person and the other throws over, whereas in a cascade all throws are made under.

The trouble with a cascade is, as you can see in ball juggling, one hand catches on the left and throws on the right, and one catches on the right and throws on the left. This is the same with diabolo, so one person will be continually catching the diabolo and rolling it down the string the wrong way so it loses speed, while the other is speeding it up. With a half shower, all catches are made on the right and throws on the left, therefore you can keep the diabolos going longer since both people are speeding them up.

Hope this clears a few things up :wink:

Tom
It takes 24 muscles to smile, 42 to frown, and only 4 to hit someone in the face. Luckily for you, I need the exercise.

martijn

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2005, 10:04:08 AM »
Quote from: Sean
I get a bit lost when you get into the half beat siteswaps such as: 1.5p | 2.5p or even other non-integer values such as 1.33. I know it refers to a different gap length between passes, but I don't think I get it after that.

JiBe: Help! ;)

Yes I don't get that either..  :(

It's true you can do a cascade pattern with 3 diabs.. just throw every diabolo underneath the previous. And you can do a reversed cascade as well.. throw every diabolo over the previous. For 4 diabolos you only can do a half shower pattern (or over or underneath the previous). I would like to see a 5d cascade with diabolos! :D

JiBe? Clear some things up please :wink:

JiBe

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2005, 01:14:19 PM »
Ok, many things to clear up.

1) Shortly on the half shower vs Cacscade.
To keep giving spin to your diabolos when you throw them, you want to catch on the right and throw on the left. The pattern itself is thus already assymetrical, with a short throw (guy on the right) and a long throw (guy on the left). What's the point of crossing in a cascade then when a half shower is much more natural (not even talking about 4 or 5 diabolos).

2) why half-beat passes ?
Let's assume normal throws with normal siteswap values.
Let's assume both jugglers do 441 at the same time, then decide to exchange the first 4, doing 4p41.
A 4p is the same height as a 4, but you need to be throwing (and catching) exactly in sync for that to work. Otherwise it would be like throwing a 4 and having it coming back sooner or later than expected (and drop).
So if you're not throwing exactly at the same time, what's happening?
You have a gap (this the gap mentioned in te explanation) between when you do a throw and when your partner is doing one. You are never throwing a diabolo (as a pass or as a self) at the same time.
Take back 441 (4p41), and decide than your partner starts his first 4 between your two 4. The first 4 is the pass, so you have to throw it higher and he has to throw lower than normal 4 to compensate the time gap between you two.
If he started exactly half a beat after you, you're doing a 4.5p, and he's doing a 3.5p.
We also could have a 4.33p and a 3.66p.
Hope it's clear :-)


3) why the sun in the 3 diabolos pattern
3 diabolos would normaly be a half shower, with the 2 hand siteswap 4x 2x. Which gives us in normal 1-hand passing siteswaps something like < 1p | 2p>, or say <1.33p | 2.66p > to be more realistic. Now a 1p is very difficult to do, it's very very low.
So we prefer to throw higher (the height of normal 4 passing in theory) and do a sun in between throws to get the timing right, which gives :
< 1.5p 1 | 2.5p 1>

4) 4 passing - JiBe is throwing some diabolos to Baptiste and some of them just above him.
ok, what I do when I do this is I keep 3 diabolos on my side for 1 beat, and leave Baptiste doing a sun with the remaining 1 diabolo during that time.

So we start from < 1.5p | 2.5p > (I'm doing 1.5p), then to do it once I throw a 3 instead of a pass, then back to normal passing. Baptiste has to do a sun instead of a pass when he sees there is no diabolo coming.
it gives <1.5p 1.5p 3 1.5 | 2.5p 2.5p 1 2.5>.
When we do it continuously, I'm just throwing the 3 on one throw out of 2.

5) pirouette of one juggler in passing with 3 or 4 diabolos and then continue passing
Haven't tried with 4 yet. But with 3 diabolos, the one doing the capture does:
1.5p 1 [2 3 1.5p 2] 1.5p
The part between brackets is the trick itself
the other one does :
2.5p 1 2.5p 0 0 1 2.5p 1 2.5p (I think)
And he has plenty of time to pirouette with the 0's.

6)Priam's aerial whip in passing with 3 diabolos
Where is that done in passing ?

I've probably forgotten a few things. Just ask again :-)

JiBe

Eduardo

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2005, 03:43:12 PM »
Nice explanation JiBe, thanks a lot.
And about the aerial whip, I've never seen it in passing, but he does that in diabology, while doing 51 (I think, correct me if I'm wrong), and does the whip instead of a sun during the 1.

vch

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2005, 03:47:23 PM »
Thanx!

It's much more clear just now, but I don't understand the piruette at all  :(
 1.5p 1 [2 3 1.5p 2] 1.5p | 2.5p 1 2.5p 0 0 1 2.5p 1 2.5p means that 1st man is not doing passes but classic 2 and 3 throws? I think that higher passes is enough. And there are more numbers in the 2nd part which you have written.

I have never seen Priam's whip in passing, but I and my brother can do it - simply both-hands whip instead of normal catch - we will make some video...

I asked also about this:
3 jugglers (JiBe, Baptiste, Priam) are passing with 4 diabolos changing only one and the other ones which has each of them on the string just throw above him, when is the only changing one going to him
My DVD-ROM is out of order so I can't write part of Diabology where it exactly is:( I hope you know what I mean-it's in freestyle siteswaps clip...

I am sorry if I haven't understand the priouette in right way.
Thank you for answer

Eduardo

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2005, 04:04:46 PM »
Quote from: vch

It's much more clear just now, but I don't understand the piruette at all  :(
 1.5p 1 [2 3 1.5p 2] 1.5p | 2.5p 1 2.5p 0 0 1 2.5p 1 2.5p means that 1st man is not doing passes but classic 2 and 3 throws? I think that higher passes is enough. And there are more numbers in the 2nd part which you have written.

I think I can explain this one.
They are passing like this:
Code: [Select]

D1: 1.5p 1 1.5p 1 ...
D2: 2.5p 1 2.5p 1 ...

D1 throws a self higher and receives the next diabolo, going into two high, receives the other one and goes into 3 high, D2 has no diabolos left, and no diabolos coming for 2 beats, enough time to do a pirouet:
Code: [Select]

D1: ... 1.5p 1 2    3 1.5p
D2: ... 2.5p 1 2.5p 0 0    

On the second 0 D1 throws the arriving diabolo (from the 3 high pattern)
back to D2, that receives it and do a sun waiting for the next diabolo and to go back into the passing pattern, D1 cannot throw the next diabolo so he has to throw another self (as in 2 high):
Code: [Select]

D1: ... 2 1.5p 1 1.5p (and so on)
D2: ... 1 2.5p 1 2.5p (and so on)


Quote from: vch

I asked also about this:
3 jugglers (JiBe, Baptiste, Priam) are passing with 4 diabolos changing only one and the other ones which has each of them on the string just throw above him, when is the only changing one going to him

Do you want the siteswap for that?
Code: [Select]

D1: 1.5p  1    1  1.5p 1    1
D2: 1     1.5p 1  1    1.5p 1
D3: 1     1    3p 1    1    3p


Hope its right and it helps.

JiBe

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2005, 04:14:03 PM »
Eduardo, very nice explanation of the pirouette.

vch, maybe you're thinking of something else. It is of course possible to do higher passes at soem point in passing and do a pirouette. I've never seen it done though so I don't know what to explain (several possibilitie).

It is also possible to do a pirouette sun on thr 1 in 3 diab passing (I do it on diabology with Priam).

Quote from: Eduardo

Quote from: vch

I asked also about this:
3 jugglers (JiBe, Baptiste, Priam) are passing with 4 diabolos changing only one and the other ones which has each of them on the string just throw above him, when is the only changing one going to him

Do you want the siteswap for that?
Code: [Select]

D1: 1.5p  1    1  1.5p 1    1
D2: 1     1.5p 1  1    1.5p 1
D3: 1     1    3p 1    1    3p



I don't think you have the right pattern Eduardo. You've written the normal domino pattern for 4 diabolos. The one vch wants must have some 2's in it.
I'm a bit lazy and will let Eduardo write it :-) (tip: (we do "a 2, a pass, some suns").

JiBe

JiBe

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2005, 04:16:32 PM »
Oh, and Eduardo, you are aware that when you write your siteswaps, since you have some half beat passes, the throws from D1 and D2 should not be at the same time on the same vertical line?

JiBe

vch

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2005, 06:20:05 PM »
OK, guys.
It's clear. Thank you very much for great explanation! We will make videos of tricks you have never seen (aerial whip and pirouette) - it's quite easy just the idea. If I have some next question I will ask here...

Eduardo

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2005, 07:37:50 PM »
Quote from: JiBe
Oh, and Eduardo, you are aware that when you write your siteswaps, since you have some half beat passes, the throws from D1 and D2 should not be at the same time on the same vertical line?

JiBe

Aye, I do know, but it would take me far more time and work (and I'm lazy too :P) so it's just the order things happen with each diabolist, not the beats.

Quote from: JiBe

I don't think you have the right pattern Eduardo. You've written the normal domino pattern for 4 diabolos. The one vch wants must have some 2's in it.
I'm a bit lazy and will let Eduardo write it Smile (tip: (we do "a 2, a pass, some suns").

All right, let me try it then:
Code: [Select]

D1: 2  1.5p 1     1   2  1.5p 1    1
D2: 1  2    1.5p  1   1  2    1.5p 1
D3: 1  1    2     3p  1  1    2    3p

JiBe

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2005, 07:57:05 AM »
Looks about right, but not quite :-)

D1 is juggling  (2+ 1.5+ 1+ 1)/4 = 1.375 diabolos  
D2 same as D1
D3 is juggling (1+ 1+ 2+3)/4 = 1.75 diabolos

which makes a total of 4.5 diabolos  :?

If I recall correctly, there is 2 more suns in theory (maybe we did only 3 on the video)
Code: [Select]

D1: 2  1.5p  1     1     1   1
D2: 1   1    2    1.5p  1   1
D3: 1   1    1      1     2   3p


So now D1 and D2 with 1.25 diabolos each
D3 with 1.5 diabolos
for a total of 4 diabolos, that's better/

Eduardo

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2005, 02:20:59 PM »
Thanks JiBe, I guess I'll have to study it more :)

Tom_G

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2005, 05:39:40 PM »
All these numbers are scaring me.... :lol:
It takes 24 muscles to smile, 42 to frown, and only 4 to hit someone in the face. Luckily for you, I need the exercise.

Yannos

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Applying siteswaps to passing
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2005, 11:59:19 PM »
I like the this numbers...

Yannos

 

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