Author Topic: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)  (Read 20008 times)

Marko

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The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« on: January 07, 2008, 10:30:57 PM »
Hi friends, this is actually an extension to an old topic. But that's already from
the year 04, so no need to dig any deeper on that. You can find it if you want to
see what it was about then. Anyhow, we did some translating for our web page.
Which included four articles about creating knot tricks with diabolo.

Three articles were published on the subject in Xmas 2004 and one now (based on
the stuff we discovered then). So as said the stuff is pretty old but for my opinion
they belong to basic knowledge of diabolo. And therefore should be translated.
Also there are lots of new jugglers around here and this might be new stuff for them.
Actually there's lot thinking behind it, but if you have explored knots before,
you probably know most of the stuff already. Advanced guys don't get
jumped off. But for everybody, just use 30mins of your time and read them trough.
So this is basically a tool for creating tricks and realizing how they are constructed.

Enough said. I won't paste whole articles to here but all are straight links.
We are also keeping the copyrights ;)

A Theory about the knots: - Basics -
http://www.kumiankka.com/indexeng.php?sivu=engknots1

A Theory about the knots: -The Dead points 1-
http://www.kumiankka.com/indexeng.php?sivu=engknots2

A Theory about the knots: -The Dead points 2-
http://www.kumiankka.com/indexeng.php?sivu=engknots3

A Theory about the knots: -Alternative ways-
http://www.kumiankka.com/indexeng.php?sivu=engknots4


Hope there's something for even though the performing is over simplified
for faster learning. And thanks to Aaro, without him this stuff wouldn't be
written.

-Marko
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2008, 01:25:47 AM »
Great work, i've been tempted to write a whole essay on the whole frontwrap/backwrap, frontside/backside, backbackside/frontbackside theory, but i'm afraid to be thrashed by the diabolo community. Care to collaborate?

aaro

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 06:47:59 PM »
Man, you have too much free time ;D

But seriously, great work - keep it up!

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2008, 09:11:27 AM »
Yea Legault, sure. I could collaborate. Actually there's quite a lot in those subjects.
What were you planning to write? I might have something to say about wraps. ;)
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

Diabolo88

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2008, 01:20:02 PM »
I admit I don´t have time to read the whole thing right now (but I will later definitely) so maybe you already put this in there.

Don´t forget to add that all of the knots that opens to the right/left can be opened in the middle and then pulling either hand under for a cross handed position and from there the trapeze/inverse trapeze theory is reversed. It´s quite possible you already wrote that but it´s important (and I think you should have this middlethrow to crossed hand theory in the basics because it´s a good way to learn).

Very nice initiative. Maybe this could be the very beginning of stringnotation for Diabolo? Thank you for posting it.

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2008, 04:50:12 AM »
Basically knot theory, Backwrap/frontwrap backside,front backside theory, knot released to make certain string positions, etc.

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2008, 05:08:02 PM »
Legault, knot theory in written form won't work. Far too much.

aaro

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2008, 07:44:13 PM »
I would say it works, there are not too many knots really. Most of the "different" knots are merely variations and multiple knots, the basic theory remains the same. If you start with the diabolo on the string you have to make the wraps open each other, and if you put the diabolo under the string you can do whatever with the string between diabolo and sticks (As explained in http://www.kumiankka.com/indexeng.php?sivu=engknots2)

There's a challenge, name a knot that does not go to either of these.   ::)

garner

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2008, 08:05:57 PM »
double plastic
or to go older...swiss cuckoo clock

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2008, 09:10:03 PM »
Nononono Aaro, there are MANY more ways to tie up your diabolo. You're only thinking in one plane for a start.
What about knots where you pull a web over the diabolo, looping certain strings over it but leaving others? Or slack whips and slack suicides? String rejection, SA? (I can't elaborate further and tell you what that stands for, langerz would kill me :-X)
These are just a few, believe me, a complete guide would be too much work and nobody would bother to read it.

Beni

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2008, 01:09:40 AM »
Nononono Beni. Almost everything can be taken down to inverses, trapezes and deadpoint stuff.
I would defend Aaro on this. There has only been one exeption so far. But like all good theories
this can and should be tested.

Please show me a not trick that i can't explain by inverses, trapezes and deadpoints.
And by showing i mean, video or animation. Giving me or Aaro a name like "Double plastic" unfortunately
don't mean anything for us. I tried to google those two tricks that Garner named but no results, exept
that they are on some really old book. People come from different cultures with different languages,
 and let's face it some names for tricks are actually really bad to use to describe them. So i need little
bit more to understand what trick you're talking about.

Some thinking behind the theory. As Aaro said basically you can have diabolo on the string or under the
string. Okay, so you can add wraps or unwrap. The trapeze is same thing as wrap but it has the stick in
the loop. So there's four ways to do trapeze, which equals to our four wraps (left front wrap, right front wrap,
left back wrap, right back wrap). And the same applies for inverses which can be done in four ways as
well but on the other side of the string.  And rest of the stuff are the "deadpoint" stuff.

In conclusion, I have really hard time believing that you can come up knot tricks that are not based on
"wrapping" (trapezes, inverses) diabolos or doing stuff when on a deadpoint. But i'd be delighted to see
some material that break this theory, cause for my opinion they have good thinking behind it.

Diabolo88, yea. As you may see not everything has been written about the theory. And i had some problems
while trying out your idea. It might be due the fact that english isn't my native language or me just being
stupid today. But could you specify more the "pulling either hand under for a cross handed position" stuff?

-Marko
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

Dan

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2008, 04:39:15 AM »
I can only imagine he means releasing the knot onto the underside of the string (or vice versa).   Holding the knot and moving the free stick along with the remaining string underneath to cross the string when the diabolo is dropped.  To keep the string in an "open" position you would need to have your hands crossed or turn around 180 deg.  Sorry if my English is bad - it is my native language, however i am lazy ;)

Dan

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2008, 04:10:16 PM »
OK, I have a perfect example that I'll try and film soon.
But it's not just about over and under; it's about the twists of the string as well.

Beni
(Expect something cool soon, people. Well... cool in my eyes ::))

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2008, 10:26:22 PM »
Twists of the string.
Backsides and suns.

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2008, 11:50:56 AM »
Yea,  basically twist on the string (double twist after doing sun) can be done as well with one
trapeze and one inverse trapeze (not the normal way stick pointing to perfromer, ask me for
a video if that remains unclear). So both the double twists can be done by combining trapezes,
and therefore they can be undone as well. Undone part i didn't try yet, but i believe its possible.

And actually backside on the string may cause different situations depending on which side it
is. But for example if you do trapeze after backside. The backside would reverse the effect of
that next trapeze because it's on the different side of the rope. And if you look at the knot you
see an inverse. So what can we do from here? The deadpoint stuff that's for sure.

That's some morning thinking about twists and backsides. In conclusion, twist can be done with
inverses and trapezes. And doing knots after backside is doing knots with you hands crossed.  :D

«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2008, 05:42:49 PM »
You just wait... ('til saturday)

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2008, 06:36:00 PM »
Looking forward to that ;)
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

nev

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2008, 12:21:07 AM »
OK so I finally got round to reading this....

Firstly - very well done on a concise but thorough explanation of the various knots etc - I actually enjoyed just reading that.

The only thing I can think of right now (that does not conform to the theories therein) is a slackwhip under both cups, which leaves you in a string knot that cannot be undone by wraps / invereses alone (unless you prove me wrong of course)

www.Diabolomoves.co.uk/diabolos/ - shop for Sundia diabolos, Handsticks & String

Diabolo88

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2008, 12:41:02 AM »
Quote
Diabolo88, yea. As you may see not everything has been written about the theory. And i had some problems
while trying out your idea. It might be due the fact that english isn't my native language or me just being
stupid today. But could you specify more the "pulling either hand under for a cross handed position" stuff?

Haven´t been home so it took me a while to reply. I mean just throwing it straight up between the sticks from any knot that releases to the side and then pulling either of your hands below to end up with crossed hands. I did a lot of experimentation with those knots when I was a beginner and they are fun and great to learn with. But like I said, I haven´t read the whole thing yet so maybe it´s already there (it´s a pretty exstensive guide after all).

I don´t understand the discussion about the slackwhips and deadpoints (not my forte) but I have never gotten a knot to work normally from a slackwhip. Why that is I don´t know :P.

^English is not my native language either. If this message doesn´t clarify and you understand Swedish I could PM you.

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2008, 08:19:11 AM »
Nev, i've been struggling with that also. I had a talk with Jussi about it when juggling last week.
Looks like it's quite difficult to make without the slack, altough i might be able to get there with
cradles. Until someone finds a way to do that i could state that it's not actually a knot because
it leaves diabolo inside the knot. If you fasten it you're in trouble. So if it isn't a knot that does not
open straight away, it doesn't conform to theories. :)

Diabolo88, i'll get back to you later. First i've got to try it out. ;)
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

 

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