Author Topic: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)  (Read 20017 times)

Marko

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The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« on: January 07, 2008, 10:30:57 PM »
Hi friends, this is actually an extension to an old topic. But that's already from
the year 04, so no need to dig any deeper on that. You can find it if you want to
see what it was about then. Anyhow, we did some translating for our web page.
Which included four articles about creating knot tricks with diabolo.

Three articles were published on the subject in Xmas 2004 and one now (based on
the stuff we discovered then). So as said the stuff is pretty old but for my opinion
they belong to basic knowledge of diabolo. And therefore should be translated.
Also there are lots of new jugglers around here and this might be new stuff for them.
Actually there's lot thinking behind it, but if you have explored knots before,
you probably know most of the stuff already. Advanced guys don't get
jumped off. But for everybody, just use 30mins of your time and read them trough.
So this is basically a tool for creating tricks and realizing how they are constructed.

Enough said. I won't paste whole articles to here but all are straight links.
We are also keeping the copyrights ;)

A Theory about the knots: - Basics -
http://www.kumiankka.com/indexeng.php?sivu=engknots1

A Theory about the knots: -The Dead points 1-
http://www.kumiankka.com/indexeng.php?sivu=engknots2

A Theory about the knots: -The Dead points 2-
http://www.kumiankka.com/indexeng.php?sivu=engknots3

A Theory about the knots: -Alternative ways-
http://www.kumiankka.com/indexeng.php?sivu=engknots4


Hope there's something for even though the performing is over simplified
for faster learning. And thanks to Aaro, without him this stuff wouldn't be
written.

-Marko
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2008, 01:25:47 AM »
Great work, i've been tempted to write a whole essay on the whole frontwrap/backwrap, frontside/backside, backbackside/frontbackside theory, but i'm afraid to be thrashed by the diabolo community. Care to collaborate?

aaro

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 06:47:59 PM »
Man, you have too much free time ;D

But seriously, great work - keep it up!

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2008, 09:11:27 AM »
Yea Legault, sure. I could collaborate. Actually there's quite a lot in those subjects.
What were you planning to write? I might have something to say about wraps. ;)
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Diabolo88

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2008, 01:20:02 PM »
I admit I don´t have time to read the whole thing right now (but I will later definitely) so maybe you already put this in there.

Don´t forget to add that all of the knots that opens to the right/left can be opened in the middle and then pulling either hand under for a cross handed position and from there the trapeze/inverse trapeze theory is reversed. It´s quite possible you already wrote that but it´s important (and I think you should have this middlethrow to crossed hand theory in the basics because it´s a good way to learn).

Very nice initiative. Maybe this could be the very beginning of stringnotation for Diabolo? Thank you for posting it.

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2008, 04:50:12 AM »
Basically knot theory, Backwrap/frontwrap backside,front backside theory, knot released to make certain string positions, etc.

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2008, 05:08:02 PM »
Legault, knot theory in written form won't work. Far too much.

aaro

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2008, 07:44:13 PM »
I would say it works, there are not too many knots really. Most of the "different" knots are merely variations and multiple knots, the basic theory remains the same. If you start with the diabolo on the string you have to make the wraps open each other, and if you put the diabolo under the string you can do whatever with the string between diabolo and sticks (As explained in http://www.kumiankka.com/indexeng.php?sivu=engknots2)

There's a challenge, name a knot that does not go to either of these.   ::)

garner

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2008, 08:05:57 PM »
double plastic
or to go older...swiss cuckoo clock

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2008, 09:10:03 PM »
Nononono Aaro, there are MANY more ways to tie up your diabolo. You're only thinking in one plane for a start.
What about knots where you pull a web over the diabolo, looping certain strings over it but leaving others? Or slack whips and slack suicides? String rejection, SA? (I can't elaborate further and tell you what that stands for, langerz would kill me :-X)
These are just a few, believe me, a complete guide would be too much work and nobody would bother to read it.

Beni

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2008, 01:09:40 AM »
Nononono Beni. Almost everything can be taken down to inverses, trapezes and deadpoint stuff.
I would defend Aaro on this. There has only been one exeption so far. But like all good theories
this can and should be tested.

Please show me a not trick that i can't explain by inverses, trapezes and deadpoints.
And by showing i mean, video or animation. Giving me or Aaro a name like "Double plastic" unfortunately
don't mean anything for us. I tried to google those two tricks that Garner named but no results, exept
that they are on some really old book. People come from different cultures with different languages,
 and let's face it some names for tricks are actually really bad to use to describe them. So i need little
bit more to understand what trick you're talking about.

Some thinking behind the theory. As Aaro said basically you can have diabolo on the string or under the
string. Okay, so you can add wraps or unwrap. The trapeze is same thing as wrap but it has the stick in
the loop. So there's four ways to do trapeze, which equals to our four wraps (left front wrap, right front wrap,
left back wrap, right back wrap). And the same applies for inverses which can be done in four ways as
well but on the other side of the string.  And rest of the stuff are the "deadpoint" stuff.

In conclusion, I have really hard time believing that you can come up knot tricks that are not based on
"wrapping" (trapezes, inverses) diabolos or doing stuff when on a deadpoint. But i'd be delighted to see
some material that break this theory, cause for my opinion they have good thinking behind it.

Diabolo88, yea. As you may see not everything has been written about the theory. And i had some problems
while trying out your idea. It might be due the fact that english isn't my native language or me just being
stupid today. But could you specify more the "pulling either hand under for a cross handed position" stuff?

-Marko
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

Dan

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2008, 04:39:15 AM »
I can only imagine he means releasing the knot onto the underside of the string (or vice versa).   Holding the knot and moving the free stick along with the remaining string underneath to cross the string when the diabolo is dropped.  To keep the string in an "open" position you would need to have your hands crossed or turn around 180 deg.  Sorry if my English is bad - it is my native language, however i am lazy ;)

Dan

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2008, 04:10:16 PM »
OK, I have a perfect example that I'll try and film soon.
But it's not just about over and under; it's about the twists of the string as well.

Beni
(Expect something cool soon, people. Well... cool in my eyes ::))

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2008, 10:26:22 PM »
Twists of the string.
Backsides and suns.

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2008, 11:50:56 AM »
Yea,  basically twist on the string (double twist after doing sun) can be done as well with one
trapeze and one inverse trapeze (not the normal way stick pointing to perfromer, ask me for
a video if that remains unclear). So both the double twists can be done by combining trapezes,
and therefore they can be undone as well. Undone part i didn't try yet, but i believe its possible.

And actually backside on the string may cause different situations depending on which side it
is. But for example if you do trapeze after backside. The backside would reverse the effect of
that next trapeze because it's on the different side of the rope. And if you look at the knot you
see an inverse. So what can we do from here? The deadpoint stuff that's for sure.

That's some morning thinking about twists and backsides. In conclusion, twist can be done with
inverses and trapezes. And doing knots after backside is doing knots with you hands crossed.  :D

«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2008, 05:42:49 PM »
You just wait... ('til saturday)

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2008, 06:36:00 PM »
Looking forward to that ;)
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

nev

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2008, 12:21:07 AM »
OK so I finally got round to reading this....

Firstly - very well done on a concise but thorough explanation of the various knots etc - I actually enjoyed just reading that.

The only thing I can think of right now (that does not conform to the theories therein) is a slackwhip under both cups, which leaves you in a string knot that cannot be undone by wraps / invereses alone (unless you prove me wrong of course)

www.Diabolomoves.co.uk/diabolos/ - shop for Sundia diabolos, Handsticks & String

Diabolo88

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2008, 12:41:02 AM »
Quote
Diabolo88, yea. As you may see not everything has been written about the theory. And i had some problems
while trying out your idea. It might be due the fact that english isn't my native language or me just being
stupid today. But could you specify more the "pulling either hand under for a cross handed position" stuff?

Haven´t been home so it took me a while to reply. I mean just throwing it straight up between the sticks from any knot that releases to the side and then pulling either of your hands below to end up with crossed hands. I did a lot of experimentation with those knots when I was a beginner and they are fun and great to learn with. But like I said, I haven´t read the whole thing yet so maybe it´s already there (it´s a pretty exstensive guide after all).

I don´t understand the discussion about the slackwhips and deadpoints (not my forte) but I have never gotten a knot to work normally from a slackwhip. Why that is I don´t know :P.

^English is not my native language either. If this message doesn´t clarify and you understand Swedish I could PM you.

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2008, 08:19:11 AM »
Nev, i've been struggling with that also. I had a talk with Jussi about it when juggling last week.
Looks like it's quite difficult to make without the slack, altough i might be able to get there with
cradles. Until someone finds a way to do that i could state that it's not actually a knot because
it leaves diabolo inside the knot. If you fasten it you're in trouble. So if it isn't a knot that does not
open straight away, it doesn't conform to theories. :)

Diabolo88, i'll get back to you later. First i've got to try it out. ;)
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

LaNgErZ

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2008, 11:30:49 AM »
i too put this off for a while, but now having finally read it this is very very good! congrats. it indeed should be one of the many building blocks for begginers.

ahem..... however, i understand what your saying about how pretty much everything comes down to wrap/unwrap, but there are many major exeptions to that theory, for instance what nev said. a slack whip round both cups,but if you imagine this exact trick but with your thumb instead of the stick, the mount would drop to a single sun.

my point being if you use your thumb/fingers to open strings which are unaccessable to begin with, then the theory doesn't apply. this is also the case with many slackwhips.

lz

well done garner, i'm impressed   


Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2008, 04:40:52 PM »
Thanks. I was kind of waiting for your reply LaNgErZ. Your videos made me
scratch my head with the knot theories in mind. :) And i must acknowledge that
There's many things we haven't tried with the theory.

The first three parts of theories were written like 4 years ago and then i had
no idea what a slack was. So theres lot's of research to be done with knots
and also with the LZ style ;) Hopefully i'll have time do that soon, or maybe
in EJC.

«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2008, 12:38:09 AM »
Diabolo88, right on! I got the idea after testing it a while today. There was one small problem at
first with it. Apparently you can still do it the wrong way. But yea, it works fine. And we haven't
written about it. Maybe in someday we'll update the theories again and i might put it there as well.
But there's plenty of stuff going on now keeping me busy. Tack så mycket. ;)
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2008, 03:36:14 AM »
Still, as its true, these things aren't really used, as there is no exit.
There would be no point doing a move that would put you in an unaccessable spot.

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2008, 09:42:06 AM »
Legault, you're referring to the slack over two cups right? That Diabolo88's move actually works
in some of the cases, and doesn't leave diabolo to unaccessible place.
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

nev

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2008, 10:11:34 AM »
Still, as its true, these things aren't really used, as there is no exit.
There would be no point doing a move that would put you in an unaccessable spot.

What do you mean no exit - there are many exits so its far from an unaccessible spot.

True they are not widely used (yet), but they are increasingly being used and there are some nice possibilities with them.
www.Diabolomoves.co.uk/diabolos/ - shop for Sundia diabolos, Handsticks & String

William

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2008, 10:21:29 AM »
I have a feeling I am going to end up reading something in here.
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

LaNgErZ

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2008, 10:24:12 AM »
right, (you'll have to bear with me i'm harshly dyslexic)

the idea the diabolo88 is talking about is debatably a very basic laceration, this is the idea of using the knot around the diabolo to make a different postion using your sticks without moving the diabolo that much, there are ultimately thousands of posibilities to be explored with this principle, if i'm thinking the same as you the trick your talking about would end up in the equivelent of a backside trapeze (not release). it is possible in my opinion to get to 1 position to another in less than 4 moves, using lacerations

from a basic side release you can easily get to left fritz (1 popup), right fritz (1 popup), both sides frontstyle (1 popup), trapeze both sides (1 popup). i could go on easily but i think you get the idea.

however this does still conform to your written theory anyway so there isn't really any need to experement, if you made clear that backside/darkside is the same but opposites everything would still work, lacerations are just a way of speeding up an existing trick/line by getting rid of the unnecisary movenments it consisted of before,

but as i say this idea is exactly what you wrote 4 pages about, so dont spin out its exactly the same

lz

pm me if you want anymore help, and sorry if that was unclear
 

aaro

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2008, 11:30:37 AM »
OK, I have a perfect example that I'll try and film soon.
But it's not just about over and under; it's about the twists of the string as well.

Beni
(Expect something cool soon, people. Well... cool in my eyes ::))

I'm still waiting for that revolutionary knot that would thrash our theories :)

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2008, 12:27:10 PM »
Got the point LZ. Yea, looks like it always comes down to the same thing.
I have hardly done any slacks and that finger stuff. I actually had a blast
while having Xmas juggling party with Aaro, Samuli, Jussi and other Finnish
diabolo fellas. The evening led to a very different style tricks for me, including
slack variations and mind****s with 1 diabolo.

Beni, yeah. Still waiting for it :)
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

Nick

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2008, 03:25:20 PM »
The idea the diabolo88 is talking about is debatably a very basic laceration...
...from a basic side release you can easily get to left fritz (1 popup), right fritz (1 popup), both sides frontstyle (1 popup), trapeze both sides (1 popup). i could go on easily but i think you get the idea...
Langley,
I'm not really sure that you can call these moves lacerations. If we're getting into yo-yo terminology they sound more like the pop-up from Red Clover (an illustration can be found here) or the chops in the trick Absolute Zero.
"True" lacerations are something different, as illustrated by Spencer Berry in this video at 0.57.

If i'm thinking the same as you the trick your talking about would end up in the equivelent of a backside trapeze (not release).
I think that you and Diabolo88 are talking about two different tricks. In Diabolo88's trick, when he crosses his arms one hand goes under the diabolo and one hand goes over the top of it. The result is a crossed-arm open string (backside). In your trick both hands go under the diabolo when crossing, resulting in a crossed-arm trapeze.

It sounds like there are some interesting ideas coming out of the essays and this thread. I'm looking forward to playing around with some of this stuff.
Nick.
City landmark might be feet lower if rebuilt (6,5)

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2008, 07:28:17 PM »
Oh yeah, I filmed something but the camera wouldn't upload to the computer, and at the moment I can't be assed to keep on trying. At some point in the next few weeks I will try and get flys and then maybe I'll have the patience to deal with the camera + slow computer + low speed USB port enigma.
Anyway, I was going to post an "inaccessible" knot (i.e. ones that don't fit the theory).

Still, as its true, these things aren't really used, as there is no exit.
There would be no point doing a move that would put you in an unaccessable spot.

LOL. Of course there are exits, and some exits can lead to interesting mounts in the non-dominant laceration position (two sticks in left hand — I think of lacerations as onehanded whips, after Nick cleared the concept up a little for me). Use your imagination...

True they are not widely used (yet)

Oh they will be...        (by me at least)

Beni

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2008, 10:02:42 PM »
Not exits once you drop the knot i beleive.

Ben.

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2008, 10:23:18 PM »
there are. sean taught me one  :)

when you are in the slipknot on the string you throw the diabolo about head height and sort of move your hands forward and the diabolo just slips out and lands on the string forcing the slipknot to slip as it were. it does require the knot to be quite high up thye string

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2008, 10:57:29 PM »
Yeah, what Ben said — in some cases you can just whip the string off.
But why would you drop the knot?!

Beni

William

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2008, 11:24:07 PM »
At what Ben said, If its too low to throw out, grab the string and open it up, pop it up to the top of the string so its a slightly tweaked cats cradle. Good for recovering a trick on stage.
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2008, 02:33:44 AM »
I suppose, yeah, But i wasn't really including slipknot, thats a well known one.
I guess i include knots that can be dropped and then be exited.

William

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2008, 07:58:13 AM »
I think you're being narrow minded. If you can make a knot, you can untie it.
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2008, 01:12:28 PM »
just because you can untie it, doesnt mean you can untie while diaboloing.

nev

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2008, 03:44:31 PM »
You should be able to untie any knot that you *meant* to get into.  Yes you might make mistakes which end in horrid knots tight on the axle (especially with slacks) but thats only because you do not know the knot you're going to end up with before the event.  If however you then replicate that same knot without letting it slip to the axle, you should be able to work out how to release the knot through diaboloing alone.  Haven't found any that cannot be undone by one way or another.
www.Diabolomoves.co.uk/diabolos/ - shop for Sundia diabolos, Handsticks & String

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2008, 11:41:58 PM »
Exactly, i count knots as knots that slip to the axle and can be undone.

William

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2008, 12:04:19 AM »
Legault, ANY knot can be untied when its around the axle. Some are just harder, obviously. Some diabolos make it easier to exit. Especially wide Baxle flys.
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2008, 03:06:38 AM »
Not slackwhip around both cups i believe...I think theres a way of getting it to come loose and catching the slack, but no proper undoing method.

William

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2008, 03:32:28 AM »
Why does it have to be a Proper undoing method? There is no proper way to diabolo. And also, I beleive you just contradicted yourself- well done.
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

LaNgErZ

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2008, 09:02:11 AM »
nick
yeah got what you meen about what diabolo88 was doing, (my bad) your right.

but i always thought with yoyo that you had to whip the the string through underneath the axle and catch the loop like a suicide for a true laceration. (as shown)

so what do we class as a laceration on diabolo? i always used that term for cutting to something else (like if you pop up from trapeze to double or nothing) i've never really thought about it, i just used that name (stupidly)

legault? what are you on about?

lz

^loooks like i've been told   

Nick

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2008, 09:31:25 AM »
I haven't really done much research into diabolo-based lacerations. The closest that I've come would probably be the start of the third trick in this VotW. It has a similar action to a yo-yo laceration and the loop is formed and then caught, rather than chopping into strings.
The distinction between "true" lacerations and slack whips becomes quite blurry when you add sticks to the equation.
Nick.
City landmark might be feet lower if rebuilt (6,5)

LaNgErZ

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2008, 10:03:23 AM »
i've got a few that should count... its just they would have to start in something like a release and catch the loop thrown from that position making it more of a suicide than anything else?

hmmmm thats definatly a grim one.

lz

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2008, 02:26:28 PM »
What i mean is, I consider, Cradles, trapezes, slackwhips, etc. to be mounts.
I don't consider them proper knots unless they can be dropped and then be undone properly.

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2008, 02:07:03 PM »
What i mean is, I consider, Cradles, trapezes, slackwhips, etc. to be mounts.
I don't consider them proper knots unless they can be dropped and then be undone properly.

Wow I bet you have some awesome knot combos ::).

@langerz and Nick: I do a lot of what I call lacerations involving both sticks in the right hand where I whip stuff around my left (inspired by Nick). I do think that there are some slacks that can be considered lacerations with the normal diabolo setup. Maybe a loop around the left stick and diabolo caused by momentum from the right stick?

Beni

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2008, 04:09:55 PM »
Wow I bet you have some awesome knot combos ::).



Did that have to do with anything, or were you just insulting me due to my opinion?
Seriously, keep your nasty opinions to yourself.

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2008, 04:56:35 PM »
Woah sorry. Just thought it was sort of narrow-minded to think that you couldn't have a mount which you couldn't drop to a normal knot.

By the way, we've had an example of a knot that this essay doesn't apply to for years — Nick's display pic!

Beni

Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2008, 09:38:47 PM »
Sorry, overreacted on my part.
But you don't see me insulting your style.  ;) - and you haven't even seen it yet!
Nah, what i mean, is that i consider things that drop to things that are unable to undo while diaboloing as simply mounts.
Things that drop down to inverses, backsides, suns, wraps, or combinations of those or etc to be PROPER knots.
Others are mounts that can eventually be dropped to a PROPER knot.

mofro

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2008, 02:23:30 AM »
You should be able to untie any knot that you *meant* to get into.  Yes you might make mistakes which end in horrid knots tight on the axle (especially with slacks) but thats only because you do not know the knot you're going to end up with before the event.  If however you then replicate that same knot without letting it slip to the axle, you should be able to work out how to release the knot through diaboloing alone.  Haven't found any that cannot be undone by one way or another.

this is true Nev. the one thing to bear in mind is that you can get out of most knots bu opening the right strings, popping it out and landing it on top, which will nearly never end up in a knot (unless you dive into the realms of sticks through string knots.) basically i would say that this is bad practice, popping the diab out, as it doesn't make for creative exits witch is half the fun of it surely?

mofro
**** fixed and bring on the slack!

LaNgErZ

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2008, 03:15:52 AM »
Quote
this is true Nev. the one thing to bear in mind is that you can get out of most knots bu opening the right strings, popping it out and landing it on top, which will nearly never end up in a knot (unless you dive into the realms of sticks through string knots.) basically i would say that this is bad practice, popping the diab out, as it doesn't make for creative exits witch is half the fun of it surely?

mofro

hahaha he says, i wonder who gave you that idea boy. all your trick belong to me! hahahaha

lz

legault vs beni, knot competition live pay per view

Diabolo88

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2008, 07:20:15 PM »
Quote
think that you and Diabolo88 are talking about two different tricks. In Diabolo88's trick, when he crosses his arms one hand goes under the diabolo and one hand goes over the top of it. The result is a crossed-arm open string (backside). In your trick both hands go under the diabolo when crossing, resulting in a crossed-arm trapeze.


^In the release I talk about you just throw the diab straight up between your arms. If you do nothing afterwards the string should be OVER the diabolo and to stop it from dropping you bring either hand below (usually if the knot goes CW the right hand goes under but both works) and you end up with crossed open string. It´s just a beginners transition but IMHO very important. The trick LaNgErZ is talking about is different.

About lacerations, I always thought slacks were closest in Diabolo. What would you consider a diabololaceration then? Every knot surely cannot be considered a laceration?

The idea of two sticks in one hand seems good. How about doing the "finger propeller" (I don´t know the real name but the one where you spin sticks and locked diabolo around the finger) and just at the release manipulating the natural path of the string in different ways by forming loops with the left hand + the loose string? That should contain some possibilities, but would probably be hard to get the string just right every time. Doesn´t lacerations have a low "hit-rate" even in yoyo as well :P?

Ben.

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2008, 07:30:51 PM »
IMO lacerations are when you do an inverse trapeze, then throw the diabolo up into the left string and when it is up in the air (darksided) you 'lacerate' by moving the right hand stick to the left of the string and trapeze motion it so that it is in a fritz release.
make sense?

Diabolo88

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2008, 07:43:27 PM »
^OK, makes sense now. Very different from what I was talking about as already said.

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2008, 08:02:07 PM »

By the way, we've had an example of a knot that this essay doesn't apply to for years — Nick's display pic!

Beni


Beni, well that was fairly easy. It's just an inverse trapeze. I would say that it's just plain inverse,
but some might argue with me that Nick is using deadpoint for the web demonstration. Do i have to
make a video of it for you to believe? Because that's no trouble, the trick is really easy. So if Nick
made that with a slack, i would say that he just used different way to get to the final point (like in essay 4).
But yea, a good try. It's good that you're testing the theory.


-Marko
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2008, 09:52:32 PM »
Nick's figure, if dropped, will result in a 'dead' knot i.e if you're on stage you're doomed.
It is a crossarm slack whip* and to make the actual star shape you move your hand to it's normal position, but in essence it is an instant trick from a single whip.
It's definitely (k)not** an inverse trapeze.

Beni

* Inverted version is possible as well (inverting the left hand movement, not the right). I can do both ;D.

** Oh no, it's the pun police!



William

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2008, 10:44:35 PM »
That was terrible Beni..  :D

I'm still struggling to wrap* my head around all this.I guess knots aren't really my forte.

*Come on, you know I had to try.
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2008, 07:20:44 AM »
Beni, well yeah. I hardly do slacks currently so i don't know what that
crossed armed slack whip does. But like i said to the same figure you
can get by doing inverse (or therefore anything that can be substituted
by for inverse).

For the picture i did plain inverse with my right hand. And then i just put
my "free stick" in the middle of the knot and took the two nearest strings
on the "free stick". There you go, low and behold the star. And it opens
from the outside.



So do this with good technique and some style in stage and you're not doomed.
;)
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

LaNgErZ

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2008, 09:38:25 AM »
IMO lacerations are when you do an inverse trapeze, then throw the diabolo up into the left string and when it is up in the air (darksided) you 'lacerate' by moving the right hand stick to the left of the string and trapeze motion it so that it is in a fritz release.
make sense?
i know what you mean but technically this is not a laceration. watch the vid that nick posted and you'll see what he means.

lz

mofro

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2008, 11:51:48 AM »
^ langer please correct me if im wrong (i know u will) but as its a diabolo trick it can be called whatever? as the trick that ben is talking about cannot be performed on a yoyo? so its a seperate thing alltogather.

mofro
**** fixed and bring on the slack!

LaNgErZ

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2008, 12:10:39 PM »
but the name stems from a false interpritation of laceration, which was nicks point and i'm sticking with nick i'm afraid.

i was wrong so i think everyone else should admit defeat too.

lz

mofro

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2008, 12:16:54 PM »
your not taking me with u langerz! NEVER!!

so what is a laseratiuon on a yoyo then? vid would be cool
**** fixed and bring on the slack!

Ben.

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2008, 04:11:53 PM »
nick posted a link earlier in the topic. and langerz i was replying to diabolo88's post about what is a 'diabolo laceration'.

mofro

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2008, 04:58:23 PM »
oh yea sorry bout that. 8)
**** fixed and bring on the slack!

Beni

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2008, 06:40:17 PM »
Marko: With Nick's permission I can send you the video, or if it's still up you can watch it online.  I think Nick took it down though.
Mofro: Ben's trick can be done on a yoyo. Check out the "absolute zero" link. Nick also pmed me a link to a classic yoyo laceration video a while back... I deleted the message d'oh.

I think you can simulate the classic laceration trick with two sticks in the right hand. You just whip the string around your left hand fingers making a trapeze. This is sort of 3rdB as you are making a trapeze without any need for the diabolo to move.

Beni


Marko

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Re: The Scandinavian knot theory (four essays, some videos)
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2008, 09:42:12 PM »
Beni, cool. Just send a private message and link for that video. It's
hard to know how things are from the picture. But yea, i doesn't sound
like very handy knot if it doesn't open. It's like doing overhand knot to
your diabolo, no use in doing that. So i'll be again waiting for a video from
you Beni ;)


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