Author Topic: to all of you three_diabolo_kids  (Read 14501 times)

busk

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to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« on: April 20, 2008, 09:57:37 AM »
there's so much more out there!


think about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk

-Leo-

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2008, 10:09:20 AM »
A valid point that needs to be heard, cheers Busk.
Behind your back is your front.

Squiggle

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2008, 11:12:15 AM »
Nice video, thanks for posting.

It's interesting and hope it helps people come out with some new stuff.   It's why I'm not too fussed to learn 3D yet, so much work to get the basics of 3D, When I could put that time into learning/creating new stuff with 1 + 2.



~AFK Diaboloing.

Duncan

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2008, 11:42:31 AM »
Hoo boy, are we going to get the rec.j-type of posts here on .ca over this topic?

Yes it's an interesting video. Not my style of thought though since I'm not choosing juggling over other things in life (though it is a significant hobby to me). Some people will probably find something useful from it.

Matt?

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2008, 11:56:46 AM »
I think a lot of people really need to listen to that video. I have always been a huge fan o Wes, not just because of his skill, but he has always shown so much creativity in his videos (even if they were just to 'please the watchers) and seeing him juggle at the BJC was spectacular. I have been feeling exactly the same thing recently, and i have been discussing it with Ben, no one really experiments any more.

Busk has a good point bringing up 3d. The only people i want to see doing 3d are Zack, Jacob, Barnsey, William and Duncan. Otherwise it is, as Wes said, boring. Thats why i appreciate Langerz style so much, because its no generic, boring diabolo, its exiting and forward thinking.

of course, Duncan has a valid point, it seems less important if juggling isn't the biggest thing in your lie, but i would say that it is still something to think about and concider.
i go for walk now? it easy to find papers! look, i got this bag of filters!

aaro

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2008, 12:11:36 PM »
I would say theres lots of good stuff to experiment and come up with 3. And i would say it's pretty much arrogant to make a list of names who are allowed to do 3d :) come on! I'll do 3d if i want.
I also think that there is much more depht in to this subject than how many diabolos one happens to be using, i have seen a lot of boring stuff with one...

I see where Wes is coming with this, it's bit crazy whats happening with WJF and "real" sportjuggling. But doing art does not have to mean that you do with minimal props and weird faces either.
As happens quite many times in this forum, valid topic is lost because it is not clear enough, i don't know are we talking about diabolo videos, shows or practice methods here.

Matt?

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2008, 12:21:19 PM »
i was merely using 3 as an example, and even then it was personal preference. I'm not banning people from doing 3, I'm just saying that i can really appreciate the work they have put into it. Of course there is a lot of stuff to come up with with 3, but very few actually do it. a lot of what people do is just repetition of what other people do (I'm generalising here). of course there is also more depth to this subject, you could use examples with 2d, after learning the rudiments, often people will just copy harder stuff (a certain topic about Arjans 2d mini gen comes to mind).

Anyway, it is certainly food for thought for me.
i go for walk now? it easy to find papers! look, i got this bag of filters!

Pete

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2008, 12:40:31 PM »
Certainly a very broad topic. I agree with alot of what was said in the video, but the same time am probably not that representative of that kind of diabolo. I realise there is not a great deal of genuinely new or original stuff in my repertoire, and this is a major reason why i've thus far never released a long video of myself. Simply because i've never thought there was enough interesting material to put in it, and this is because i started doing diabolo because i enjoy it, not to impress people or show of my ingenuity, and i'll continue to do what i enjoy, whether its original or copied, fixed or bearing.

I think there's a lot of room to explore in 3D, and that it can be just as original as 1D or 2D and therefore think its a little narrow minded to suggest that people shouldn't do 3D because there are more possibilities to explore in 1 and 2. Theres lots to do with 3, its just harder. I think that doing a trick with 3 thats been done with 2 is still an innovation, and original in itself so we've got some serious ground to cover. I'll admit that as a form of creative expression, 3D is probably somewhat restrictive, and for some people its just not worth the bother, because their time is much better spent on 1 or 2.

I like to think i'm fairly rounded as a diabolist, at least in that i'm roughly equally good at 1, 2 and 3d, although obviously its a silly comparison to make. How can you compare any 3d trick to a 1d trick, so how can you compare my own skill with 3 to my own skill with 1?  None the less, i'd say i'm fairly balanced, although i'm nowhere near as creative as i'd like to be. And i still practice 4 high. This has been done before. Does that mean I'm wasting my time?
 
Loving this thread.
The tallest trees from acorns grow.

Shaun

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2008, 01:34:49 PM »
Good video! Makes people reflect on their path of progression.
Makes me think of my favourite diabolo players, and why they're my favourite.......because they're different, inventing new tricks and taking it to the next level. Langerz, Nev, Busk, Sharpes and Antonin are good examples.
I think the VotW is a positive step toward the point Wes makes.
Cheers Busk.

looby

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2008, 01:47:04 PM »
.......no one really experiments any more.

I don't agree (to an extent).

Surely the point of creativity is trial and error/developing creative tricks?  Just because you haven't seen alot in videos recently doesn't mean it isn't happening.  I wouldn't say its a majority thing but I've seen enough to feel it's happening in a narrow band of the community (based on what I saw at the BJC).  I'm not going to write an essay because there's too much to cover but summing everything up I would say,

- I believe creativity is hard to achieve and requires someone that can think creatively.  On the other hand just picking up a handstick a different way and seeing if that can be integrated would be creativity.  It doesn't need to be a massive change.

- With the younger kids especially, I think it helps to have a good trick base/knowledge behind you in order to lead to truely innovative/creative tricks/styles.  Garner's a fine example from what he showed me at the BJC.

- Just because you don't see it in a video doesn't mean it isn't happening.  Many of us don't have the time to film stuff but I'll bet if you gave Chiok, Susannah, Funty, Mark, GT, Langerz, Sean, myself etc etc a camera and a whole day to film in some sweet little locations, we could probably bang out an incredible video.

- I don't diabolo alot anymore but when I do it's normally figuring out something obscure abd twisted.  I might take an age to actually turn into anything plausible but why pump out endless s***e when you can show a couple of gems.  Remember qualititive over quantitive! 

- At the end of the day this all depends on what you want to see from the community.  I'm personally tired of 3d unless it shows progression and similarly with vertax.  However, I know there's plenty out there who love it and don't mind seeing what they like on a regular basis.  If you can integrate technicality and creativity, you're a genius.

I'll probably think of more to say but my head hurts for now. 
Rennes July 10-17th 2011!

-Leo-

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2008, 02:00:44 PM »
The main problem about 'creativity' is that it's damned hard to acheive. Sure, learning tricks and sticking them together in a flowing combo is one thing, but being truely inventive means starting from the ground up.

You won't get a creativity bonus for finding a way to throw tricks together (generally) which is a hell of a lot easier than sitting down and thinking "would that work..." for about an hour to create a mediocre trick.

A lot of it is to do with the way you think about tricks and experimentation, but a fair amount of creative tricks come from flashes of inspiration and noone (pretty much) has constant flashes of inspiration when they pick up a diabolo.

In other words: try to be creative, but it's not as easy as that. Creativity sets apart truely great diaboloists from good diaboloists.

-Leo
Behind your back is your front.

Nick

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2008, 02:04:14 PM »
In defence of 3D:
I can't argue with the fact that seeing the same 3d tricks in videos gets boring, but people need to remember that the idea of tricks with three diabolos is still in it's infancy. During the early days of two diabolo, most tricks were "just" variations of one diabolo tricks performed with two diabolos: arm/leg orbits, suns, trapezes. Its only relatively recently that we've seen so many fantastic, creative tricks that explore the potential offered up by two diabolos. Many of these tricks are built on the foundations set out by those early 2d pioneers.
I feel that the state of 3d tricks at the moment is similar to the early days of two diabolos. Many of the tricks are "just" extensions of two diabolo tricks with an extra diabolo. People are only just beginning to explore what possibilities a third diabolo adds and starting to create original tricks. It won't be long until 3d is as rich and varied as 2d is today and I am certainly looking forward to seeing what 3d grows into.
I'm sure we will be sat around at BJC 2015 moaning about "Why can't 4d be as creative as 3d?"

Nick.
City landmark might be feet lower if rebuilt (6,5)

Ben.

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2008, 02:09:24 PM »
i totally agree with wes, and me and matt have already started discussing many ideas about creative and experimental videos.
however, i think with all of this talk of creativity it does sway me somewhat into not learning tricks that everyone else is doing. i mean just because everyone else is doing vertax genocides doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn it, and make yourself a better diabolist. i agree that perhaps you need to be a technically skilled diabolist to become creative.
i definitely think that just because other people are doing the trick and it is not creative then you should still learn it. maybe from that trick there is an opportunity to be creative that no one has seen before and in not learning it then you have missed out. thats why i disagree with people not learning three (when they could) just because they want to be creative with 1 and 2. If you don't bother leaning stuff then you can't be creative with them.

Alex!

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2008, 02:41:33 PM »
When did diaboling get so serious?
Unless your a performer doing shows to jugglers and non-jugglers, what does it matter if your not bringing in something new and innovative as long as you enjoy what you are doing. If you don't seriously perform, then you are just diaboling for yourself, and therefore have the right to learn and practice whatever you want. If performing, I agree that a performance should be original and creative, not just in skill, but also presentation, as you are no longer diaboling solely for fun or enjoyment, but also to entertain, teach, present and earn.

Interesting message, but badly executed. Wes, to me at least, came across as being arrogant. He was going on about how experimental and new stuff can actualy be good if people take the time to appreciate it and he doesnt see why others didnt like his last 3 experimental videos. But what he fails to realise, is that like any other performance, his experimental and new stuff may be bad (or even 'boring') aswell, and you can have degress of good 'new and original' or bad 'new and original' and I think he doesnt realise that. And maybe his new stuff, e.g his last 3 experimental vidoes wernt good, and he cant accept that, so therfore he's  blaming us for not liking it by saying we cant appreciate it, when maybe it just isn't good.

-Alex
 I hope that made sense
STOP! HAMMER 'TIJN

Mark BMC

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2008, 03:20:11 PM »
i think we shoulda filmed our passing move looby!. Theirs so much going on in diabolo right now!

-3 D tricks
-4 D
-looby,vux,funty stick tricks
-ponte string control
-NINTH ELEMENT
-pauls numchuck stuff

-  the stuff I'd really like is langerz,nick,mofro stuff but applied to 2d you get abit in contrast. 

i appreciate the point thow, it dosent hurt that busk is my favorite diaboloer and Wes is probably my favorite juggler.

LaNgErZ

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2008, 03:25:31 PM »
the stuff I'd really like is langerz,nick,mofro stuff but applied to 2d you get abit in contrast.

hehehe not long now........

lz

tipiphil

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2008, 03:27:11 PM »
The general consensus so far is that creativity = new tricks.

Creativity can also be the way you use and present the tricks - whether they are new or time honoured classics.
Eric and Antonin illustrated this point with their Fil et Refile trailer - the tricks weren't anything new from what they had been doing in Diabology two years previous, but what they had done was take the tricks outside the box, explored them, and come up with a 'creative' show.

Creativity works on many levels, don't limit yourself.

tommi

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2008, 03:28:54 PM »
I don't think 3d is the point of this thread at all. 3d can as creative as anything else (I don't see a reason to justify that, but if you disagree, go on, show that I'm wrong)

It all depends on why you do diabolo/juggle. Beacause if it's all for yourself, do what ever you want. If you want the boring tricks, that is totally ok. If you are doing something that you enjoy, I'm happy for you (Eventhough I don't totally understand people who enjoy boring things, might be because im not old enough ;))
    Or if all you want is to hear other people telling you how amazingly skilled you are, you should probably go and learn 3d feed the suns and all other hard crap.
    But if you really want to give something to the diabolo community, then innovate! After learning so much from other people the most beautiful thing is to give them something new.
    And I want to say that I respect people who are highly technically skilled. But what the heck that means? I'm not gonna offer you a lunch just because you can feed the sun with three. But teach me a cool new trick and I'll consider buying you a beer.

Share and make the world better!

Ben.

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2008, 03:37:35 PM »
again i am being persuaded not to learn three. but the thing is that to me of course i would love to see something really original but i would equally like to see some 3d fts and other technical tricks because i think that they look really nice. for me atm i would rather learn a feed the sun with 3 than anything else purely because i want to be a technical diabolist but i doesn't mean that i can't be creative. i think what i am trying to say is that i value creativity as much as i value technicality.

busk

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Re: to all of you three_diabolo_kids
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2008, 03:41:49 PM »
nobody here is telling what you should learn :) technical skills are essential if you want to be innovative, creativity without own technical skills is a kind of pathetic (criss bliss ::) )

 

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