Author Topic: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original  (Read 16387 times)

martijn

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The Void

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2008, 02:21:17 AM »
Couldn't agree more. In fact, I already did.

The Void
.............
More thinking!
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Diabolo88

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2008, 12:12:21 PM »
Well, I like to copy stuff because having already seen it work I know it WILL work but still I agree with this totally. It´s hard to remember more complicated stuff precisely when you´re at practice anyway. Often you end up in something else so just run with that "else" ;D.

Marko

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2008, 02:40:54 PM »
Martijn is true. Feels like people are putting lot's of time to 3d
stuff. Big fuzz about feed the suns, who can do most 3d or 2d feed the
suns in a row. Some young kid even said to me without realizing to be
offensive, "Can you EVEN do 3D?" Now that's a harsh, bad attitude man.
Not saying that 3d can't be original or boundary pushing. I think that
it takes diabolo as disipline ahead in a way. But since when has 3d
been any kind of measurement of a man? I would never pick my friends
depending on, if he can do 3 or not. Whoa. That stuff gets me a little
angry sometimes.

Second thought. Who has experienced this:

"First you make lot's of progress. You learn tricks fast, if some
trick is hard you just ask help from others or check out the tutorial
on youtube. Tricks are fun, fast to learn. But after certain point
your mood in practice starts to shift. It's not that much fun anymore.
Tutorials are harder to find, you know lot's of tricks. It is getting
harder to find more stuff that you like. If there's a good trick,
there's no tutorial for it or there's nobody to ask about it."

My belief is that this is the point where you have learned the most
common stuff that everybody does. This would be the point where you
should start creating your own material and it's difficult because you
haven't done that much. When i experienced this, it made me feel so
depressed. Creating a new trick takes time, and when you show it to
somebody the other can learn it fast, since all the work is done. The
way to do the trick is already figured out. It's as easy as eating
baby food. ;) But the one who made the trick did lot's of work to put
that food in a can, from where every baby can eat. And if he made
instructions how to prepare the food, whoa that's hell of a job.

Now I don't mean to point fingers on anybody, this applies as much for
me as anybody else. And not saying we are all babies. But I believe
that this is the way we make progress. Lot's of individual work and
sharing. I've seen many friends work on some tricks for ages, and i've
seen people just getting those tricks in like 20mins, without
realizing how much work is behind that trick. Just saying that
appreciate the videos and tricks you get for free.

Thanks Martijn for inspiring the article.
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

luabduch

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2008, 07:07:35 PM »
thanks for those texts and for your ideas...
gave me motivation to do a lot of other diabolo things....

 ;D

Sean

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 07:20:58 PM »
Thanks Martijn for the thoughtful writing. I'd always hoped we'd have some series like this. If others are interesting in writing for the front page let me know. It could be on your experience at a convention, your thoughts on performing, an interview with a prominent diaboloist... the list goes on. What matters is that you put some thought into your writing and create something interesting for the diabolo community. If English isn't your first language (1) I can help edit for you or (2) you could write in your native language and we can find a translator.

A couple quick thoughts on this topic:
I think I diabolo for 2 main reasons:
1. I really enjoy the feeling of it. This is why I work on 3d high and low. The feeling of just running 3 diabolos on one string feels so alive; standing under a clean controlled 3 high feels so powerful; and hitting a new siteswap baffles my mind every time. Maybe that's why I don't always progress so much - quite often I'm happy just to stand there and do what I know because I enjoy doing it so much.

2. I enjoy the creativity/thinking aspect to it - the stuff that Martijn is discussing here. The outside-the-box-new-direction stuff. Often I'm not in the mood for this, but when I am I find this an incredibly enriching aspect to the diabolo.

Rock on with whatever you enjoy. The whole "I'm not good enough to come up with something new" line irks me too. OK, true, there are some very basic skills that are useful to learn first, but we're talking what you can learn in the first hour or two. After that, anybody can find new ways to roll, drop, and catch a diabolo. If anything, the experienced diaboloist is limited by what they conceive as "The Rules".

Marko

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 09:48:57 PM »
My last comment sounded little bit like a religious speech.
I'm trying to rephrase it a little.

Theory is. You see something done, like a video of somebody doing
3D-low. It helps you in so many ways. First you see that it's possible,
second you can see how the hands move, the rhythm, how you start it and
so on... To do 3D first without any video or guidance is bigger job. You'll
have to try everything out and sort all the problems yourself.

So this would be how your level affects everything. Change from monkey-see
monkey-do learning to self-reflection and problem-solving. The other explanations
for starting to learn slower is that the tricks are getting ridiculously hard. It's probably
the both.

I do get the point why the whole "Create new create new" -attitude irks. Probably creativity is
the way i try to get my revenge for all those jugglers who come to ask me if i can already
do 3D-low or high. Get those comments like once a week now... after that i usually go outside and
just growl with some Finnish winterwolves.
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

LaNgErZ

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 11:40:00 PM »
loving the marko as always^

going back to this whole idea of being original. what is original? what aspects make up the word original in this context? the trick in question? because i'm pretty sure thats what were discussing. i personally think there are other major factors that make up originality.

i find my creativity always dries up without a convention or something to leech some inspiration off people willing or otherwise. this surely proves that trick evolution would not happen without other people providing the missing rungs on your ladder to progression.

the goal surely is to not only better yourself but to help fix a few peoples broken ladders on route.

lz

William

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2008, 04:10:28 AM »
surely proves that trick evolution would not happen without other people providing the missing rungs on your ladder to progression.
Best thing I've read in a long time. +1
William - YouTube! "NO! If they're blue, you should not touch your nuts." - Aaro

Marijn

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2008, 08:28:47 AM »
I think there is some kind of absolute distance a certain person can ''travel''(/think) outside the box (different distances for different people). Watching videos, going to conventions and just watch others makes the box bigger for a person. This means that the out-of-the-box-reach someone has will also improve.

This sounds like a somewhat restricting view, but that doesn't have to true. ''The possibilites are endless'' is somewhat of a vague, not really applyable thought. I think this vagueness might even work more restricting.

I'm not saying that I want this to be true, ofcourse I would prefer a world in which anyone could easily go as far from the box as possible. But that just isn't realistic.

Note that I think every person has a different reach, a person like, let's say M4U, might have a ''reach'' twice as far as me.

Keyword for me is ''frame of reference'' (don't really know the correct english word for this). The frame of reference is the box, so I basicly believe a person can only think outside his frame of reference to a certain point.

I don't think there is a way to say ''my frame is this big'' and neither should it be a holdback for exploring ideas. It should be a motivation to go and try to reach as far as possible outside the box. And by constantly keeping up-to-date with videos etc. you should avoid hitting the ''end'' of your reach outside the box.

Also, there is a difference in ''vertical'' innovation and ''horizontal'' innovation (in my opinion). Vertical innovation is basicly going away from the box, and horizontal innovation is moving ''around'' the box (not going away) and can be seen as mixing existing concept to something ''new''. This might be ''endless'' to a point that there are concept available.

It is this vertical innovation that is, in my view, only possible to a certain level for a certain person.

Got to go now, I might read it back later to fill in some holes 'cause I wrote this without reading back (no time). So sorry if there are not understandable ideas in it :P
''I have been practising some basic 2d suicide stuff to widen my arse''

martijn

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2008, 02:48:29 PM »
Very interesting point you bring up there Marijn!

My last comment sounded little bit like a religious speech.

Nah, don't worry, I liked it and feel pretty much the exact same way about it. I'm really glad I started the discussion! :D Can't wait to release my 2nd post.

But seriously now - can you do 3 Marko? ;D

Sean

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2008, 04:05:40 PM »
Great discussion with many thoughtful points made.

trick evolution would not happen without other people providing the missing rungs on your ladder to progression...the goal surely is to not only better yourself but to help fix a few peoples broken ladders on route.
That's an excellent way of putting it. There's no substitute for people observing and helping each other in person. I've certainly been much more stagnant since I last made it to a convention (many years ago now).

''The possibilites are endless'' is somewhat of a vague, not really applyable thought. I think this vagueness might even work more restricting.
I think this is another important point. There's that whole philosophy that restrictions breed creativity. That we wouldn't have many of the inventions we had today if people weren't forced to work within and around a set of confining rules. Sometimes a completely blank slate is overwhelming and unproductive.

In applying this theory to the diabolo, I'll often force myself to develop something within an arbitrary set of boundaries. For example:
-every motion in this sequence has to be anti-clockwise
-the sticks can't leave your hands
-develop a sequence where only one stick can be held at a time
-no normal accelerations allowed
-the diabolo has to change directions multiple times...
-and the list goes on...

Another type of restriction I use is to pick a simple goal and find out how many ways I can come up with to achieve it. For example: how many ways can I switch the sticks in my hands with 2 diabolos?

I've always thought it would be interesting to do a series of these as a forum. A small challenge is posed and then people post videos showing one of their solutions.
How many ways can you switch the sticks in your hands with 2 diabolos?
How many ways can you get out of a right backwrap on the left side diabolo with 2 diabolos?
How many ways can you start an infinite suicide?
Where on your body can you catch the diabolo?
And again, if we thought about it, the list goes on...

Maybe something to start as the weather gets cold in Europe and North America and the normal videos start to dry up for the season?


Marko

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2008, 04:20:29 PM »
Lz, the ladder makes a lot of sense.

Martijn, it's not my style (at least until i learn it). *Growling break*

Sean, i'd be definitely up for the whole video thing. Hopefully others will be as well.
The whole restricting yourself for creativity is good stuff. Works like a charm. Remember
being in Jay Gilligan's workshop and creating lots of ball juggling stuff with the restriction
technique. Will remember that day forever.
«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

samuli

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2008, 04:39:13 PM »
Marko can't yet do 3 low or high. He's missing lot of points in SDS Diabolo Finnish open championship.

But for this all thinking in and out of the box. I think Diabolo.ca is a box. Really...

think of it now.

Some opinions here and all this discussion is making it even more box. Board who desides which stuff is new, which stuff is cool.

Don't cry. Do what you like. Do it for yourself. Not to others. And no. You don't need to watch all the diabolovideos on the internet. Enjoy what you do.

That'll be my advise.
www.fdc2016.org /www.supiainen.com

Ben.

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2008, 04:56:58 PM »
creative can also be using already existing tricks. thats where i think originality and creativity differ. you can do a double sprinkler, but then to use the trick and do a 360 whilst the stick has been released is being creative but not making up any new tricks as the 360 and double sprinkler were already tricks in the first place. creativity can often be the 'welding' of 2 tricks together or one after the other, be creative using existing tricks if you will.
i think that i am better at being creative with tricks rather than amazing at inventing original tricks.

Also i think that there is a point where people start becoming creative and original. For me, up until about 6 months ago, i was focused on learning existing tricks like continuous mini gens and vertax stuff rather than wanting to be creative. Now however, i want to be creative as i feel that most 'fundamental' tricks i have learned.

martijn

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2008, 05:04:34 PM »
creative can also be using already existing tricks. thats where i think originality and creativity differ. you can do a double sprinkler, but then to use the trick and do a 360 whilst the stick has been released is being creative but not making up any new tricks as the 360 and double sprinkler were already tricks in the first place.

That's not quite what I mean with "being creative without being original". My point is that you shouldn't confuse those 2. An original trick is a new trick that no-one has ever created before. A creative trick is a trick you created yourself, a trick that's new to YOU. As a real bold example: a person isolated from the rest of the diabolo community can create Eric's integral suicide without ever having seen the trick. You can hardly say that person's being original. He IS being creative though, because he created a trick that was new to him, that he had never seen anyone do before. Here also lays a source of frustration. It can be a bit of a let-down to find out your new trick actually isn't that new and has been done for years :P

fredo

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2008, 05:57:45 PM »
When talking about creativity, I also think of subjectivity. Creativity is something that brings up emotions such as surprise, astonishment, enjoyment and often makes me smirk. If you consider a trick being creative or not depends very much on your personal perception and your point of view.

Originality seems to be something less abstract, however. The new, the unexplored is original - in the sense of a new, unknown creation - therefore it is more objective. A trick either already exists or it doesn't.

I often think of different aspects, maybe even "parameters" influencing a combo/trick. For me, the five main aspects are diabolo technique, technical level, combination, body movements and posture, (intended) perception and implications and overall difficulty. A trick/combo is defined by which diabolo tricks, basics and moves are used (diabolo technique), how they are combined, which body movements accompany it, how the trick is supposed to be perceived and actually is perceived (subjective aspect). This also contains "implications", which may, for instance, be an ass catch in a whip combo... At last, the difficulty of combining all these parameters to create a specific trick and the technical difficulty of the single parameters themselves sum up to the overall difficulty.

Of course I've already found a flaw in this theory myself - the inventive, creative work, although measurable (time spent on developing the trick), is not contained. But, I think, for a theory how a trick is perceived, this is neglectable, as you cannot see the amount of work, the "technical level of creativity" involved. So this is very much subject to the subjective aspect, as people appreciate moves differently. Some find a special magic knot intersting, some don't.

This pretty much sums up how I think of tricks when I see them (at least how I "rate" them unconsciously). It's a synthesis of subjectivity and objectivity, of emotions and "general truths" (lack of better word).

Thinking a bit further and asking myself what the qualifications are a trick has to meet to be considered "creative" in the diabolo community, I like to think of the community as a character it self, as it is based on subjective values and common points of view. The objective aspects are obviously true as well. If you wanted to extract a point of view from the combined statements to a totw, for instance, I think this is comprehensive.


martijn

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2008, 06:16:26 PM »
I often think of different aspects, maybe even "parameters" influencing a combo/trick. For me, the five main aspects are diabolo technique, technical level, combination, body movements and posture, (intended) perception and implications and overall difficulty.

I rather simplify this division by limiting to the skill triangle I mentioned: Technique, Creativity & Presentation.

Technique is the difficulty and execution of the move(s). Creativity is a bit harder to describe, but I think you can measure this by the level of innovation (disregarding originality). Presentation is how you execute the move(s). Body position, form, balance, expression, personality and style spring to mind. Tweaking the moves to a style of your own is a big aspect of the presentation element in my eyes.

Perhaps this is too straightforward. However, I like to group similar skills into one element to keep things as simple as possible.

It's a synthesis of subjectivity and objectivity, of emotions and "general truths" (lack of better word).

Facts? Specified by the community, that is.

willzB

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2008, 11:22:43 AM »
I think your point about picking up new tricks and then changing them purely by accident is a really good point, and very true, it happens to me when i see some new tricks and then you go to practice with a couple of new ideas in your head and you create something entirely new!

That is why watching videos or filming your new tricks and coming to these forums is so important, it is a massive help to every one that diablo's!

Good point!

nev

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Re: Blog post Tijn #1 | Being creative without being original
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2008, 11:41:43 PM »
GREAT topic

I will post my thoughts when I get time
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