Criticizing VotWs (was VotW: 20 Octo...)

[William]

I didn't really like it. 

[Aaron Z]

I didn't really like it. 

Clearly you don't understand the complex twirling motions of that single stick.

[Diabolo Dodson]

Wow votw is going down hill at the moment, 2nd votw running a moderator has stepped in, maybe everyones used up there best tricks on the collab  I did quite like this trick tho, and who doesnt love Martijns style

[barnesy]

Don't forget about this, kids: http://diabolo.ca/timeout/

[William]

So having a time out means we can't have an honest opinion anymore?

[barnesy]

You're ctiticising a VOTW when you could just as easily keep quiet.  Considering the nature of the problem that lead to the timeout, and considering how public that was, I think you're now just trying to stir up trouble.   And as was clearly stated in the timeout message, we're not standing for it.  This forum is not a place to bash other people's videos.   If a votw doesn't interest you, leave it for the other forum users.   

[Diabolo Dodson]

You're ctiticising a VOTW when you could just as easily keep quiet.  Considering the nature of the problem that lead to the timeout, and considering how public that was, I think you're now just trying to stir up trouble.   And as was clearly stated in the timeout message, we're not standing for it.  This forum is not a place to bash other people's videos.   If a votw doesn't interest you, leave it for the other forum users.

Its just an opinion, when i release a video, i like to receive criticism, its one of the things that helps me improve, i like to find out what people like and what people dont like. I no a few diaboloists who feel the same, now your stopping this?

[barnesy]

Your post complaining about the quality of VOTWs is exactly the same sort of thing that lead to the timeout.  This isn't an out of the blue ban on having opinions, it's an attempt by the mod team to keep the VOTW feature as something that adds to the forum rather than a whingefest.

Any more posts of that nature will be modded.

[Hathaway]

Barnsey their opinions were expressed in a pretty adult manner. Like William says, people need real feedback. They were by no means 'bashing' the video so whats the problem?

You're criticising a VOTW when you could just as easily keep quiet.

It wasn't criticising, it was his opinion. As much as he could have kept quiet, why should he? People should be allowed to say wether they like things or not, the whole timeout was about people getting nasty and female canine was it not? Perhaps you should read the timeout page and apply it to your moderating?

P.S Martijn, do it with glow sticks and my pants might be a mess! (of the good kind)

[Duncan]

Barnsey their opinions were expressed in a pretty adult manner. Like William says, people need real feedback. They were by no means 'bashing' the video so whats the problem?It wasn't criticising, it was his opinion. As much as he could have kept quiet, why should he? People should be allowed to say wether they like things or not, the whole timeout was about people getting nasty and female canine was it not? Perhaps you should read the timeout page and apply it to your moderating?

P.S Martijn, do it with glow sticks and my pants might be a mess! (of the good kind)

We haven't told you to stop criticizing videos - we have asked that you not do so publicly. PMs, IMs, whatever, are a viable alternative to voice your thoughts to the person. If you have a suggestion as to how the trick could be expanded upon, such as "Neat, but I think if you did such and such, the trick could be opened up into something even cooler," or something similar, that's constructive criticism and is likely welcomed pubiclly (and is, I'm assuming, what you would prefer, Dodson). Just saying "I don't like it" doesn't help very much.

[Diabolo Dodson]

I would prefer for it to be public, then if someone has a similar trick, they can learn from it too.

[Hathaway]

Yep I see your points Duncan, but then equally all these people and theres lots of them (myself included) that just post on a video, 'nice video', or 'cool I liked that' should also communicate through IM/PM?

[Duncan]

Yep I see your points Duncan, but then equally all these people and theres lots of them (myself included) that just post on a video, 'nice video', or 'cool I liked that' should also communicate through IM/PM?

If I can clarify what I mean by constructive criticism, what I mean is that people should be happy to give some feedback publicly as long as it's backed by some significantly good suggestions on how they can improve the trick or presentation, such as "I'd like to try/see that trick with some anti-spin involved," or something similar. Coming in with "didn't like it" is totally unnecessary - why does the whole of the forum need to hear someone's two cents on "I didn't like it" when it doesn't contribute to the improvement of the trick or video? Give some proper feedback like "I didn't like such and such moment of the trick - maybe with such and such it would look nicer?" Hathaway did so with "do it with glow sticks." What's stopping the rest of you from taking another 5 minutes to suggest what could improve the trick?

We'd like to keep the forum clean of "I didn't like its'" simply because it doesn't encourage discussion.

-Duncan

Edit - moved the discussion here to keep the VotW thread cleanish

[looby]

Thank you Duncan.  Every point of my imminent post was in there.

[Hathaway]

Duncan I agree with you. But, again, and in my mind as equal as the negative comments is the positive. We are more than happy to have people post 4 or 5 words on how good a video is with no real point except its their two cents on "I did like it", yet you don't see those people getting warnings?

As I've said I agree, I'm just debating the point of why we are happy to have meaningless positive comments that contain no real substance, but as soon as the negative variation of that comment is posted theres uproar.

We'd like to keep the forum clean of "I didn't like its'" simply because it doesn't encourage discussion.

But say for example William said "I did like it", no one would have had a problem with it, but that equally encourages no discussion?

[looby]

When someone simply comments 'nice video' it works because it implies the viewer can't find something blatantly obvious to constructively criticise and enjoyed the whole package.  Maybe we should think more about highlighting particularly good parts of videos to help the creator emphaisize that feature more in future videos. 

When it's along the lines of 'I didn't like it' it implies the viewer sees something wrong with it.  Why hold back from saying what it is? 

By stopping at 'I didn't like it', you're offering nothing to the board.  Apart from a ban, nothing's stopping you from posting it but just don't expect it to go down very well.

[martijn]

There's constructive feedback and there's moaning. Only saying that you didn't like it doesn't contribute to the topic, so I think that's why Dave decided to do his modding. Maybe some of you think Barnesy stepped in too soon, but there's no reason to attack him like this about it. I think we all should respect the decisions he makes as a moderator.

edit - what looby said.
edit2 - what duncan said I kinda missed the whole 2nd page somehow.

Wow votw is going down hill at the moment, 2nd votw running a moderator has stepped in, maybe everyones used up there best tricks on the collab  I did quite like this trick tho, and who doesnt love Martijns style

Thank you for the kind words, but I need to say that we moderators/VotW reviewers are also diabolists with creative ideas that like to feature in the VotW series! Although we are running low on submissions, it's not some sort of cry for help.

[barnesy]

Heh, yes.  I did originally intend it to be a gentle reminder to steer us away from problems that we've had to get involved with in the past, but it seems it didn't work out that way.  Other people are making the point I wanted to make better than I managed.  Thanks.

It wasn't posting about that that earned William a warning - it was the way he went way over the top in his response and the amount of work he created for the mods.  Hopefully things can calm down again now.

[Toby]

Yes

[-Leo-]

I have to say; I'm on the mods side on this one. People work hard to film something and present it well. The VOTW's are the best or most appropriate at the time, hard work goes into keeping this thing going. If there were lots of videos to choose from then maybe you could say "this video seems a little out of place for the VOTW" (possibly in a more tactful way -I can't think of one right now.)

BUT -and this is the main point I was going to make...

Each VOTW is showed to a group of users before it's released. If the group likes it; it goes up. If not, a message is sent to the user who submitted the video giving advice on ways in which it could be improved. This system proves that for a trick to go up some people (the majority of the review group, actually) must like it.

Basically the point is that people have different tastes and sometimes it's better to accept that than trying to change something. This is afterall a community, not something for 1 person, or a small group.

[Ben.]

how about everyone just calms down and lets threads like this die without making a fuss?
thats my views anyway.
Less modding, more posting whatever, i say.

[martijn]

how about everyone just calms down and lets threads like this die without making a fuss?

Word. I locked the topic, because I think all points have been made and any further discussing won't contribute to the good vibe on the forum.