Author Topic: Copying new tricks  (Read 11469 times)

Funty

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2009, 08:39:00 AM »
wouldn't it be great if yours became a classic trick :)

Ceri-Anne

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2009, 08:45:24 AM »
Yeah, Looby said it all really. Etiquette.
And honestly, I believe most of us (both on this forum and in the more global diabolo community) know / feel this in their hearts and play by the rules. I cannot think of any example of someone copying a trick and claiming it. (However, I don't know how things are in the performance world? There might be more competition? Sharpes?)

Sorry if all of this is going to sound sentimental, but I really feel the need to point out the good things of this community. Might be a little bit too girly for you guys... ;)

I actually got a pm the other day from someone asking if they could use a trick I showed them at a convention in a video. Even though I was flattered, I also felt weird, because I never thought of it as them stealing 'my' trick. I was just sharing ideas at a convention. Of course I gave permission! And I felt good all day.

A juggling friend of mine who only juggles clubs came to me last week and said she always felt jealous of diabolo players. Because whenever she saw them at a festival or convention, she saw them standing in a group talking, laughing and sharing tricks. That looked so pleasant to her, because a lot of jugglers just practice for themselves and mostly share tricks in workshops.

So yeah, basically what I'm saying is: I agree with Looby. :-D

Richard

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2009, 08:49:12 AM »
Ramon, there's a difference between classic tricks and signature tricks. If you don't seperate the 2, this discussion is pointless.

So, at what point does a signature trick become a classic trick?  When everyone copies it so much that it isn't signature any more?

Once you post a video of a trick, it's open season on copying.  It's human nature to copy something that you look at and enjoy.

This forum and youtube have accelerated diabolo skills in the last 5 years because of that very reason.

I personally would feel flattered if someone copied one of my tricks (if I'd made any... ha ha).

Also, I can understand the argument to mention who showed you the trick - but wouldn't that get a bit tedious/boring/impossible to list everyone you saw every trick from in the credits?  And really, what is the point? 

Timaeschulze

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2009, 10:09:44 AM »
Maybe this comment is a bit useless, but I just want to say something about copying tricks.
The guy at FDC is young diabolist, maybe 14 years I don't know but the main point is: He is a kid. Just like me, and kids need some inspiration, kids need antetypes. We, mostly, can't figure out so cool tricks like the older generation, who is playing much longer and have more experiences.
All I want to say is, that he didn't think of it, to hurt someone. Please account for your discussion.

LaNgErZ

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2009, 11:00:43 AM »

samuli

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2009, 03:41:13 PM »
Practising and learning a trick isn't theft. Even performing a trick isn't theft.

It doesn't matter do you do it on video, live or in closet. It's same thing, not a crime.

Again compared to music, you can't claim note, you can't claim chord, you can claim a song, even that sounds strange? We western people don't even have so many notes, same structures keep popping up all the time.

People play other people songs anyway, and it's okay

Diabolowise we don't even have classic routines that people would like to perform.
jugglingwise there's no classic routines people have skill to perform. Francis Brunn's act is classic, I would love to be able to perform that but it's too difficult for me. Ignatov's act, Gatto's act, all classics.

It would be nice to see classics revisited. Maybe we could have Donald's act as classic. Practise and learn it but remember to say that you are performing one of rare classic diabolo acts in the world, Donald Grant's diabolo act done by (your name here)

That could really be nice project, or even competition, Donald as a judge. Best interpretation of classic diabolo act. Then our community  could make again one step further to be really a artform of it's own, with music, dance, literature, theatre...


www.fdc2016.org /www.supiainen.com

Paino

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2009, 06:21:17 PM »
i think it only becomes stealing when you claim to have invented the trick your self
the only acception is if you havent seen it before

Diabolo88

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2009, 10:12:16 PM »
Quote
i think it only becomes stealing when you claim to have invented the trick your self
the only acception is if you havent seen it before

I agree with this.

Sometimes people invent things entirely separate from one another (possibly because many diabolists think alike and sometimes the things you can do are "limited"?) so I have a hard time seeing a trick as a personal belonging at any time.

I have seen many tricks on video that I had come up with on my own before they were filmed and put on the internet for the world to see. Does it mean that I´m the thief if I do a trick that was on a video yet I did it even before the video was shown? I don´t think so... It´s very hard to know the true inventor of a certain trick as someone else may have done it before only not filmed it. Even if you think you´re the inventor you might not be.

Play, have fun and let the tricks be public domain (if they´re hard enough you might be able to keep others from "copying" anyway ;))

Now to actually go read the thread as I was just so eager to give my thoughts on this :-D

Sharpes

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2009, 06:21:21 AM »
Ceri-Anne - There have been a few instances where we've seen sequences lifted directly from our act into other duo diabolo acts.  The one time it was really an issue was when we were performing in a competition in which part of our score was based on originality, and we were competing against an act that had some of our original tricks, to the point where non-diaboloists (but still jugglers) thought that we did "basically the same tricks".  Definitely not a cool thing to do, since there's no way to subtitle a live performance with <originally performed by the Sharpe Brothers>.  Outside of that, yay open source creativity!
Jacob and Nate Sharpe

Marijn

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2009, 08:41:16 AM »
May I add a (maybe slightly irrelevant) argument in this dicussion?

The person who ''stole'' the trick in this particular situation was Elkku, right? The crazy-8-year-old-new-video-with-too-much-awesome-ness-every-month? I think the kid has proven to be very, very creative and not much of a thief. This ofcourse isn't a good reason to approve ''theft'', but to me it is just too obvious that he wasn't just simply being a lazy ''thief''.

The background of a suspected ''thief'' can/should also be taken into consideration. In this ''case'' it was/is kinda clear to me that the ''suspect'' wasn't just a lazy copycat.

Everyone who is gonna reply that this doesn't matter and that it's about the whole idea of ''stealing'', regardless who is the actual ''thief''; I disagree, diabolo is all about specific situations, not about vague ideas representing universal standards and laws.
''I have been practising some basic 2d suicide stuff to widen my arse''

Diabolo Dodson

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2009, 11:07:38 AM »
May I add a (maybe slightly irrelevant) argument in this dicussion?

The person who ''stole'' the trick in this particular situation was Elkku, right? The crazy-8-year-old-new-video-with-too-much-awesome-ness-every-month? I think the kid has proven to be very, very creative and not much of a thief. This ofcourse isn't a good reason to approve ''theft'', but to me it is just too obvious that he wasn't just simply being a lazy ''thief''.

The background of a suspected ''thief'' can/should also be taken into consideration. In this ''case'' it was/is kinda clear to me that the ''suspect'' wasn't just a lazy copycat.

Everyone who is gonna reply that this doesn't matter and that it's about the whole idea of ''stealing'', regardless who is the actual ''thief''; I disagree, diabolo is all about specific situations, not about vague ideas representing universal standards and laws.
This.

martijn

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2009, 01:20:21 PM »
As for the classic vs signature trick, it's not as black and white as some of you think it is, it's a grey area and each situation should be judged on it's specific circumstances, like Marijn said. The 2d diabolo switch trick in this case is only a few months old (I have only seen Etienne do a similar movement before the 5th element), whereas the infinite suicide exists for what? More than 10 years? Quite a big difference, so you can't judge these the same. 

The one time it was really an issue was when we were performing in a competition in which part of our score was based on originality, and we were competing against an act that had some of our original tricks, to the point where non-diaboloists (but still jugglers) thought that we did "basically the same tricks".  Definitely not a cool thing to do

So according to you it's only a bad thing when there's prize money, a trophee and/or honour involved? That's a bit hypocritical don't you think? It's the same principle when there's nothing at stake.

Sharpes

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2009, 04:21:24 PM »
So according to you it's only a bad thing when there's prize money, a trophee and/or honour involved? That's a bit hypocritical don't you think? It's the same principle when there's nothing at stake.

Sorry, let me clarify.  What really made the difference in that situation was that we were being judged on originality/creativity, and they were being given as much credit as we were (if not more since they performed first) for tricks that we came up with.  If we were being judged solely on difficulty or performance, then I wouldn't have cared nearly as much.  There's still the issue of stealing whole sequences, which while I can understand I don't really condone given all the unexplored design space out there.
Jacob and Nate Sharpe

Marko

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2009, 05:44:23 PM »
Oh we are starting to sound like bunch of magicians. They (we) have fought about the claiming tricks for ages. Literally. It's in the point where you would think that when you watch teaching dvd you're allowed to use the trick from there. Where in reality the guy who made the dvd had stolen it. I think i don't even have strength to argue or debate over this issue again. :)

I don't feel that stealing tricks is a theft for the arguments people have given here before. Actually i feel much more bad for seeing "Diabology"-dvd in torrent sites shared and seeded openly. It's not about stealing the dvd more than it's about the fact that diabolo community is so small you that you would think your friends would support you by really buying your dvd.

Now if i'd see a trick in the video and there it would read "This is my signature trick, please don't copy this." I would definitely not practice it or argument heavily of it being signature trick in the first place.

Also the whole copying thing is much also about the attitude why you're doing diabolo. If you do diabolo for your own enjoyment as so many jugglers here say to do. Then why would you be bothered to: (a) care if it is someone's trick or (b) care if your trick would be stolen. Should we have a patent office on tricks? We could fund the whole website with patent money... ;)

«Diabolo, whiter than the whitest!»

kamikace

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2009, 07:23:33 PM »
Quote
The guy at FDC is young diabolist, maybe 14 years I don't know but the main point is: He is a kid. Just like me...

Doesn't this make you think, really?

Are you really showing up a good reference to new generation? Charging a keen teenager...

If not, please, shut up and juggle

Rooted diabolist.

LaNgErZ

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2009, 12:17:45 AM »
marko, samuli  :-*

lz

Elkku

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2009, 02:33:20 PM »
The 2d stick switch trick that i did was not meant to go like that, i was going to hit the stick immediately back to a vortex, but i actually forgot what i was going to do  :-|
(I invented the trick at the FDC and i think it's not the same trick martijn do)
Eljas

robbie322

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2009, 03:57:39 PM »
I think everyone makes reasonable points and it's definitely a difficult issue to come to a balanced conclusion about, especially with the rate the online diabolo community is growing.
What i find difficult to grasp is how one person can get annoyed for someone stealing their trick when essentially even standard 2d tricks like sprinklers were invented in the not so distant past. Think how many people use these kind of standard tricks in videos everyday. That's completely fine, but somewhere along the line that trick was invented by someone, and that someone definitely couldn't get annoyed at people for using it.
I'm kind of confusing myself here, but i think i'm making a valid point.
Rob
Making the possible totally impossible

Ceri-Anne

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2009, 04:20:30 PM »
Ceri-Anne - There have been a few instances where we've seen sequences lifted directly from our act into other duo diabolo acts.  The one time it was really an issue was when we were performing in a competition in which part of our score was based on originality, and we were competing against an act that had some of our original tricks, to the point where non-diaboloists (but still jugglers) thought that we did "basically the same tricks".  Definitely not a cool thing to do, since there's no way to subtitle a live performance with <originally performed by the Sharpe Brothers>.  Outside of that, yay open source creativity!

Okay. I already suspected things like that occur sometimes. Thanks for the explanation.

I like the term open source creativity! Let's keep that one.

Oh we are starting to sound like bunch of magicians. They (we) have fought about the claiming tricks for ages. Literally.

I was actually thinking about using the magicians as a comparison in this discussion too! Glad you brought it up Marko. We don't want to end up like that! People being protective of their tricks etc. Even though I can imagine that people can feel hurt sometimes, the claiming thing shouldn't become such a big issue.

That's all from me.  :)

mike.

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Re: Copying new tricks
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2009, 04:57:06 PM »
if you dont want people to use your tricks, don't post them on the internet.

every trick you did not think of was essentially "stolen" mini gens, inf. suicides, TRAPEZES

what if the people who made ^those came back and was like "hey, don't use that, i created it!"
can't believe its not butter

 

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