Author Topic: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos  (Read 183102 times)

Sean

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Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« on: November 08, 2004, 02:47:42 AM »
Seán (yes, the other Sean), had the great idea of starting a sticky where people can post their experiences in regards to learning how to start and correct two diabolos.

This is a very common question on juggling forums. Hopefully we can combine many people's advice over time into this one thread for people who are beginning to learn 2 diabolos.

As this topic will inevitably come up many times in the main forum we'll try and move the advice from those threads into this sticky and perhaps summerize the main themes at the top.

For now, it would be great if some of you guys could contribute what you would tell someone who wanted to learn how to start and correct two diabolos. Suggestions for topics you could include:

-What method you found easiest to learn (a right or left handed throw-in, a wrap start, or something else):
-How you first learned to correct.
-How to keep the shuffle going.
-How long it took you to learn to start.
-How long it took you to learn to correct.
-Advice you were given that helped you.
-Any other advice you would give.

Eventually we'll combine this advice and turn it into a "sticky" for the top of the forum.

Cheers,
Sean

Edit: see also http://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=34

seán_

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2004, 05:09:17 AM »
Right, since this was my fault I might as well get the ball rolling.

Matt from Leeds (doing two since the early days in the UK) gave me the most help. Help also came in the form of Dave Barnes site www.2diabolo.net

I had a few goes with one diabolo being passed in and just letting the shuffle go around a few times. definately a good step. The person should pass in from your left (assuming right handed).

I then found myself having to practice myself (the other person got bored :-) ). to do this I had to learn to throw in. I first tried the 'normal'method (right handed about head height throw) but had a few problems keeping the throw in line (you can't reach for the catch or you'll move everything out of line). The right handed throw in seems to be most peoples choice although I'm seeing more and more people starting with a wrap start.

Suffering with this throw I developed my own throw in technique:

I call it the left hand butterfly.
Hold the sticks (forked) in your right hand. Hold your left hand palm up fingers pointing to the left,
the second diabolo is in this hand with the middle finger touching the axle.

Make sure the left hand is in line with the string and 'wave' it in (let it roll up towards the finger tips)

Grab the stick, catch the diabolo watch it shuffle a few times then come to a tangled mess.

Video of Left Hand Butterfly start (marvel at the horid shuffle technique and miss-alignment making a mockery of my points) ;)

Why I like this throw:
I find it easier to throw it in line.
I do not need to throw it so high.
I find it a stable throw.
The diabolo seems to hit the String (right side) in a way that starts the shuffle nicely.
It feels quite close to having a diabolo passed in.

Why I don't like this throw:
It isn't the prettiest
It gives you less spin than some methods
I haven't seen anybody using it to start three ;-)

A more common left hand throw is to hold the diabolo palm down and toss it in underhand like a boules throw (more spin this way)

Personally I'd say try the normal methods first (right hand and wraps) but if they are going nowhere try the above method.

(just my 2p)
keeping the shuffle going and corrections I'l leave to somebody else.

Seán

Sean

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2004, 06:15:30 AM »
Thanks for the extensive notes on how you learned to start 2 diabolos, Seán. I'm curious to see that video. It might be neat to accumulate a few small clips of various people's 2 diabolo starting techniques.

OK, the subject of correction techniques is a big one. I'll get it started with some stuff ripped right from my site (diabolo.ca):

-------------
It seems like there are as many methods for steering two diabolos as there are diaboloists. Find a method that makes sense to you and work on it. You'll quickly become very good at it.

Here's what worked for me: Rub the top of a cup to turn a diabolo. Rub a side of a cup to tilt it. Done.

Remember that diabolos must be spinning relatively quickly to steer them while maintaining stability. Also note that both diabolos can be tilted by directing the right hand push slightly away from or towards the body.

Can only rub the cup closest to you? You're not alone. With time both cups will become easy to rub. Trust me.

By using combinations of the above mentioned techniques you can get away with only rubbing the close cup. Although you will likely have to keep turning.
-------------

Many people correct using vastly different methods than what I have described. I correct now almost entirely by tapping a diabolo while it is wrapped and it is being "whipped"... but that is most definitely not the best way to learn at first! ;)

How about you crazy people out there that correct by tapping the axles of the diabolo from various angles. How would you describe your methods?

Sean

barnesy

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2004, 10:02:41 AM »
I've always thrown in from my right hand.  I'm not keen on wraps as a start method.   Throwing in just seems to make more sense!  I learned right handed throw ins first.  Rocket starts, wrap starts, floor starts, and left handed throw ins all came later.

But then I don't think I got the throw in start working quickly when I started learning.    I tell people it takes a long time to get the shuffle to start going round, then the same length of time to get correction sorted, then that same length of time again to get some tricks to start working.  At that point, everything starts coming together a lot better.  For me, I think each of those phases was a few weeks.  It was very slow to start with, but that tends to be the way I learn - other people will make quicker progress. I guess others will be slower.

The biggest thing that helped was good diabolos.  I first started two with little Beard High fliers.  They were awful.   I moved from those to renegades, which were fantastic for learning two.  I hardly use them nowadays though - I've moved to and stuck with Henry's Circus.

As for correction: I tell people to learn what effect rubbing different bits of the diabolo cups has on their angle, then try to apply that to two, hitting/rubbing against the diabolos as they pass down the right hand side (assuming right handedness).   These points may help:
Touching the top or bottom of a cup will make it turn left or right (viewed from above)[/list:u]
touching the sides will make it lean forwards or backwards.[/list:u]
It's easier to reach over the diabolo, so I recommend touching the top of a cup, or reaching over to touch the side of the cup so the diabolo doesn't miss the string.[/list:u]
Opposites can be helpful - remember that touching the top of the far cup is the same as touching the bottom of the near cup, etc[/list:u]
With practice, all of this becomes much more subtle - I do most corrections with one touch somewhere between the top and the side of a cup.[/list:u]
There are still times with 2 where you need to correct like you would correct one.  When both diabolos look straight, but are not in line with the string, you probably need to move your right hand backward or forward[/list:u]

Hope that helps.
Dave

PS  - This page here is the 'starting two' page on my website.  It probably contradicts most of what I just said, but may also be helpful.
http://www.2diabolo.net/?page=2

Arjan

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2004, 03:30:03 PM »
I like to keep it simple. Remember, a fast diabolo will stay more stable. So making speed wraps is the first important thing to do. Also making corrections on a fast diabolo is more secure, because it is more stable.
Speed is what you need (read in the non-drugs way  8) )

seán_

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2004, 04:24:09 PM »
I don't know who to credit this too but I think I got it from rec.juggling. I found it usefull so I saved it as a text file to help others.

THE (first) RULE:  Decide quickly which diabolo you are going to correct and correct it.  If both are bad, just pick one and get to work.  Indecision and delay can be more a problem than anything.   Practice deciding what to do, so you can act quickly and correctly.

THE (slower) RULE:  Try to correct the slowest spinning diabolo first, if there is a difference.  Also remember that a slow spinner take less of a tap to correct it, maybe just a touch.

THE (tapping) RULE:  Tapping can be more of a 'drag' on the Near Cup.  Tapping can be more of a 'push' on the Far Cup.  Tap the top of the Near Cup.  Tap inside the top of the Far Cup.  A 'brush' of the string below the right stick is sometimes enough.

THE (misunderstood) RULE:  Don't try to correct a diabolo with one tap, always remember  you can correct a bit more one of the next times around.  Also don't feel you have to tap the 'bad' diabolo every time it goes by.  Often a shuffle will survive a bad diabolo for several cycles.

THE (unrealizing) RULE:  After deciding which diabolo to correct; toss it slightly higher as it comes around.  This slightly higher toss will give you a bit more time to tap it as it hits the right string.  The toss is more like a little dely in the shuffle and is almost unrealizable.

THE (rhythm) RULE:  Deciding which diabolo, slightly tossing it higher, and gently tapping the left-most cup are all part of the rhythm of correcting.  Deciding, tossing, tapping.  The rhythm of correcting is a little different than the regular shuffle.  

THE (wobble or tilting) RULE:  One way to correct a woble is to tap a diabolo to uncorrect it and then correct it back.  Another thing to do with a wobbling diabolo is toss it up at least head high.  Catching a falling wobbler is often the cure for evening it out, or at least a little.  A great correcting trick is to toss it head high, and hold your right stick (straight out) under the falling diabolo, instead of out to the right.  Allow the right back of the diabolo to land on the stick, before it hits the string.  This collision often straightens out 'Fore' and 'Aft' problems too.

Arjan

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2004, 04:40:28 PM »
Yeah I`ve read that somewhere. But when a diabolo is out of speed (almost) and very in-correct tilted, I`d make speed first. With making speedpulls you can also correct the diabolo, if it is tilted the right way.

Sean

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2004, 04:54:42 PM »
Quote from: sean_
I don't know who to credit this too but I think I got it from rec.juggling. I found it usefull so I saved it as a text file to help others. ...

That's funny I remember reading that article when I was learning too, but I had forgotten about it. I think it helped me more than any other advice. Of course, at the time I didn't truly believe this was all possible for mere mortals such as myself... ahh the memories!  :D

Anyway, I believe that article should be credited to DiaboloTricks.com at the following address: http://www.diabolotricks.com/2Correction.htm. But then, hey - what do I know - I figured that out through a message that you wrote (Seán) on rec.juggling back in July! ;)

seán_

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2004, 06:18:13 PM »
me and my memory :)

one usefull tip I got from Dave and Matt is that holding the left stick in line with the sting (as against the standard pointing forward) can help to keep things in line.

I usually have both sticks pointing forward but will do this on occasions. If your feeling particularly flash you can correct with the left stick as the diabolo leaves the string (not that its worth it).

A tip that helped me with driving was to practice orbits around the right leg, reducing the left hand action and learning to 'drive' the diabolo with the right stick. the action isn't exactly the same but it will give you the idea.

kragen

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2004, 11:44:52 PM »
Is there any preference as to what diabolo to use when doing 2?

At the moment I use a harlequin (I like the weight - it makes some things easier, at the same time the weight does mean I get tired quickly from chienese whipping, a couple of hours practicing a new trick where im dropping the diabolo lots and I cant do anything for a while :P)

I'm just learning 2, im borrowing a 2nd harlequin, but im going to need to buy myself a second diabolo soon. Some people say that harlequin are good for learning 2 as theyre heavy, in general they arent ideal for doing 2 though I gather (but I have no idea why).

I was considering buying 2 finesse instead of 1 harlequin so I had the option of using a lighter diabolo, plus the finesee might be better for doing 2 with.

As a side note  what sticks are best - rigid or flexible sticks?
Justin
Gravity Vomit - Gravity pulls down, we throw up.

Arjan

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2004, 11:47:01 PM »
Well gear is totally a personal opinion, but in general: big diabolo`s are better. And rigid sticks will give you more control over you diabolo I think.

Tom Derrick

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2004, 11:57:52 PM »
I've found myself throwing from the right hand, palm down, middle finger around the axel, launching with a flick of the wrist.
As for correcting, I'm not very good at it yet. I can't correct it when it's tilting towards/away from me, but for left/right I hold the right stick almost vertical, and in almost the same plane as the diabolos, but pointed slightly towards or away from me. I then hop the relevant diabolo onto the stick, where it'll sort itself out. I've tried the cup tapping, but due to the covering on the handstick and my relative inexperience, it ends up with the diabolo spinning quite roughly.

Paul

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2004, 12:22:08 AM »
The cup tapping methods didnt really work for me when correcting. i seemed to have developed a correcting method through touching the diabolo axel. i do this with one basic action that is moveable into other positions

     ----------------                
      -------------              
        ---------          
          -------      
      0=========!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          -------
         --------        
       -----------            
      --------------              

This is a lame drawing of half a diabolo with the right handstick on top of the axel so its touching. From this above view i simply rotate the stick tip away from me to turn the far cup to the right and towrds me to move the near cup to the right. By moving the hanstick so its on the axel but pointing diagonally up to the left, he same motions control tilt. You can combine the angles when you get a feel for it and controll tilt and turn in one foul swoop.

  This is the method that works for me but hey... Every diabolist ever has their own right!!!!1
Peace

Tahia

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2004, 07:29:04 AM »
well i'm a righ handed !!!
but if you see my video just at the beginiong of my 3low sesion !! i correct my axes with my LEFT hand :) it's for me the best to correct... but with joak.. i'm the only person to do that :D!! cause i begin bay the left hand.. but now i can correct with the two hand.. that is very practical!!
;) sorry i've no good advice for two diabolo starting :D !!

diabololi

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2004, 05:44:01 PM »
I spent abosultely aaaaages working on a 2 diabolo throw in, I was so frustrated! After about 2 months, I tried a wrap start and it worked first time! So try out different ways of starting.
Oli

MattF

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2004, 11:29:16 AM »
I learned by using the rocket start as i thought that would be easier than the throw in. It took me a good 2-3 weeks to get it sorted. I found the cup correction to me a while to get to grips with. The 'throw in' i learned second but sometimes i throw in the diabolo at a slightly different angle to the one that is spinning which in turn needs cup correction  :roll:

seán_

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2004, 05:20:22 PM »
In another thread, Diabololi wrote about wobbly jazz diabolos he made this point

Quote from: diabololi
I use Henry's jazz diabolos, but I find that when I'm doing a 2 diabolo shuffle, they get out of line really quickly. So I'm constantly having to correct them even though they are spinning quite fast.

Also, when I use the wrap start, I have to point the wrapped diabolo inwards because it naturally turns outwards when it's in the wrap.

I have tried other diabolos and they seem to stay straight better.

Oli


the first part might partially be down to using small diabolos (though I believe  some people find them fine for two, they tend to be less used)

What I thought was worth putting in this thread was the fact that often when learning to wrap start you may find that the wraped diabolo will turn away from you.

This is, I believe, because the wrap will try and undo itself with a turning motion. If you were to put a pecil in a wrap instead of the diabolo it would quickly flip verticly then fall out. because a diabolo is well ballanced it does the next best thing which is to turn in a circle.

Any way. what can you do. as Oli points out some diabolos are more prone to this turn. I had this trouble when learning wrap starts and got around it by.
a) turning the diabolo towards me so that when it was ready to unwrap it was in line with the other diabolo
b) not doing that but giving the diabolo a good spin.

either a) or b) a combination of both should help if you have problems with a turning wrap start.

Gartok

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2004, 11:36:49 PM »
Hi, first say that i´m from spain and my english is not very good. I started with the diabolos 5 months ago. I have 2 eagle of mister babache. And after os trying all kinds of trhowing i realise the best way for me is the wrap. I have to say that it change in one day, one day i couldn´t start with wrap and the day after i could, but i don´t know how.
But with the corrections i can´t so if someone could rec a video doing corrections i will be very very grateful. Thank you. I´m sorry of my english level. BYE

Sean

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2004, 12:01:01 AM »
Hey Gartok,

There's a second thread on the forum about learning 2 diabolos... maybe we should combine them. Have a look through it.

In that thread a video done by -Fred- gets mentioned that could be of help. Here's the link:
http://diabolos.zonealta.net/videos/2d/divers/2dcorrections.avi

You will need the XVID codec.

There is also a sticky at the top of the forum called "Trick and video archive", which seàn_ has worked very hard to maintain, that will help you find this type of thing in the future. :D

Sean

Gartok

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Re: Starting and correcting 2 diabolos
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2004, 12:29:59 AM »
I need a video of 2 diabolos corrections....please. I had one but it´s from a lef-handed person. If somebody that know how to do it could rec doing it i will be very happy. Thanks

 

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