2 diabolos: plastic vs. rubber cups

[kragen]

I've just today heard that having rubber cups makes correcting 2 diabolo very hard. Having just managed to learn the 2 diabolo shuffle (if it is a bet eratic at times), having diabolo that are easy to correct is a big must!

Thats why im not bothering to get a second harlequin, and ive decided to get 2 finesse instead... or at least thats the current plan...

How good are finesse for 2 diabolo?

I'm also planning on getting 2 finger grinding axels as ive seen people mentioning on here about it also helping a lot with corrections.

[Paul]

I used henrys circus diabolos religiously from when i started learning. when i decided the time was right to learn two i bought a second circus and it was taking forever to get anywhere. I forked out on 2 finesse wih the wide axel kits thinking that the weight would make it easier and overnight i could correct them, which is something i had a lot of trouble with when using the circus. Now that i mastered shuffles and corrections on the finesse, using 2 circus is much easier. The wide finesse axels allow a bit of give n take for learning where as the henrys are a lot more sensitive to slight missallignments of the string during a shuffle. This was my experience anyway. The finesse correct really easily with only a slight touch where as heavier diabolos need a bit more of a push or pull. overall rubber diabolos are fine for corretion, but I ound some easier than others. Harlequins are cool too but they dont half make your arm ache when using 2!!!!!

[Sean]

I've just today heard that having rubber cups makes correcting 2 diabolo very hard....Thats why im not bothering to get a second harlequin, and ive decided to get 2 finesse instead... or at least thats the current plan...

[edit - to answer you question bluntly - rubber cups do not in any way make correcting 2 diabolos hard - rubber cups (most diabolos are rubber of some kind) are probably the easiest cups to correct.]

The cups of the finesse and harlequin really aren't all that different. There shouldn't be any problem with correcting two harlequins. The Henrys Circus, Finesses, and Harlequins all have similar "rubber" cups. There is nothing wrong with rubber cups... in fact they are probably easier to correct than hard plastic ones such as on Yohos.

How good are finesse for 2 diabolo?

Being lighter they make learning a good feel for 2 diabolo more challenging I believe. They will also be harder to correct at first since they are less stable (the weight again). They are a fantastic prop to use once you have lots of experience with two diabolo tricks. Diabolos that are heavier in weight reinforce proper movements better. You will develop a better feeling for 2 diabolo tricks if you start off with something heavier.

I'm also planning on getting 2 finger grinding axels as ive seen people mentioning on here about it also helping a lot with corrections.

No. No.... no   The wide finger axles do give the diabolos a nice feeling and make some tricks possible that weren't possible before, but they make correcting MUCH less stable. I'm a big fan of wide axled finesses, but NOT for learning 2 diabolos. I have many friends that insisted on trying to learn with my wide axled finesses... when they gave up and switched to henrys (or anything heavier) they finally got it solid. Finesses with wide axles are simply much less stable and unforgiving. If you read through Jongle.net you'll see that the even the members of the Mad French Posse who use (or used) wide axled finesses say the same thing.

My advice, if you already have a harleqiun would be to get another harlequin of the same colour (same weight). Many diaboloists learned 2 diabolos with harlequins. I believe Trash and JiBe did, among many others. Your other option would be to get 2 Henrys Circuses. Most people switch away from the harlequins eventually simply because of the weight - they're just too heavy for most people's taste (and arms). Once you have spent lots of time with Circuses or Harlequins then you should try out some finesses if you're still interested and see if you like them. Once your two diabolo corrections are very solid and you can whip two diabolos to a great speed you may be ready to deal with the instability of wide axled finesses.

Sean

[seán_]

I learnt with two henrys and when I was fairly comfortable with corrections I bought two finnesse.

a few points.
I didnt just go and blindly buy two finnesse, I tried them first to see If I could deal with them.
I use both now, the different diabolos suit different tricks/style of tricks.
I have to use different styles of correction between my circus and finesse, the shape of the bells dont lend themselve to my particular way of correcting.
Paul mentions being able to use a lighter touch, the last thing I personally had when learning to correct two was a light touch
I have an unusual preference for the way I throw in, which I cant do with finesse with finger axles, I have to wrap them in which is fine but a bit of a nightmare for me on new string. (i dont even bother trying floor starts with my finnesse any more)
The weight difference from henrys to finesse was noticable, I am still trying to get around to buying the additional weights which I hope will improve things for me.
My finnese give me lovely scars.

Anyway. Finnesse are nice diabolos, as are Henrys, and Harlequins and Renegades and even jumbo Rubberkings. All (and others) are usable for two but I suggest you take the oportunity to try some and dont just buy them blind. I know some people dont like finnesse but that migh be because they are so used to the feel of heavier more normal shaped diabolos.

To finish let me say that I dont believe rubber cups make correcting 2 diabolo very hard its just horses for courses. All different diabolos have their plus and minus points and their own particular requirements of technique.

(Edit: and what Sean said)

Seán

[JGherkin]

I recently tried Guy's wide axled Finesses and I find them alot harder to correct, I've got used to being able to correct most tilts and alignment probs with henrys with only one tap but with the wide axle that becomes pretty much impossible meaning it takes me alot more work.

[Paul]

Its different for everyone really though. Once again every diabolist has their own way of correcting. I touch axels with my circus and i correct with the cups and axels on the finesse. Each diabolo has a different feel and commands a different technique for correcting. It is always best to try a brand before you buy though. You will make sure you have the right diabolo for you then

[kragen]

im decided then, a second harlequin it is... but im still not sure wether to get a finesse too as well, becuase ive used them a little and they are cool.

The main thing about the harllquin is the weight, diaboloing for long periods of time is just tiring lol! The finesse do feel a little weird, especialy after the weight of the fharlequin, ah well ive got until monday to decide if I want to fork out on a finesse, especialy as it would only cost me £10-£12

[Sean]

There has been a discussion about Renegade diabolos on rec.juggling. I just practically wrote an essay in that thread. Since perhaps more people are likely to find this interesting here than on rec.juggling I thought I'd copy and paste some of that thread here:

=====================

Hey there, I'm situated in the UK, on a sofa.
Is there anywhere in the UK that you can either go and buy or mail order
the Renegade diabolos, the large plastic ones that are commonly used for
multiple work as used by Guy Heathcote and such?  Can't seem to find
anywhere with them in the UK.

Uggh... why would you want to do such a thing!? At one point they were common but they certainly aren't so common any more. How about some Henrys Circuses or Babache Finesses? Really.

OK, so maybe there are a few people who still like the Renegade
diabolos. If that's you, more power to you.

Well firstly, Sean makes a great point that you should stop thinking about
renegades becuase they are heavy and ugly and plastic and break. Go
for a henrys circus (or MB finesse if you want something a little
smaller/lighter)

Secondly, you wont even find somewhere in american that does them.
They have stopped producing them, if you really want some then you will
have to search the diabolo circles for a second hand one, no chance of
buying one anymore. Which is good by the way, becuase u dont want one

I know that renegades used to be the "in-thing".  Shame they stopped
producing them.  There's a guy at Bath University that I know, (kinda
introduced me to two diabolos, but that's all) that uses renegades.  I
tried them out for myself, they seemed quite good, nice and big.
I tried to do 2 with MB Jumbo Harlequins which I thought would be great
because they'd spin for ages, but I found it very difficult to correct
them because of the rubbery compound which meant you could turn them one
way, but not the other easily.  That's why I stood away from the Circuses
and Finesses (though I know the Mad French Posse love them).
I'm using Henry's Beach which are doing me fine due to the plastic that
makes it easier to control by tapping, but the extra weight and size would
be nice.

Renegades where popular I believe because they were relatively stable. However, as soon as diabolo started moving in the direction of backwraps, knot transfers, and high diabolo work Renegade diabolos became grossly inadequate. They are fine for a straight 2 diabolo shuffle, suns, and suicides but doing any diabolo tricks that require a wrap or great accuracy is very frustrating. The plastic axles which are a simply V simply to not allow the control with a wrap necessary for most of todays tricks. This isn't even mentioning Renegade's tendency to shatter when dropped from high heights or to make annoying loud sounds whenever they are dropped.

If you really want a quality diabolo that is not rubber I would recommend the normal (non-ratchet) Yoho (or the identical Japanese made Diabing). They perform like a circus but have plastic cups. They are also cheap. I find corrections equally easy with rubber of plastic cups, in fact probably easier with rubber cups. The main advantage to plastic cups like on the Yoho (or Spinatastic for that matter) is that if two diabolos touch each other they are less likely to bounce off each other in a mess. The plastic cups on the Yoho are very different from the Renegades. The Yoho cups are still soft, land softy, bounce a little, and don't shatter.

The Henrys Circus (especially with the plastic hubs), the Babache Finesse, and the Yoho (or Diabing) normal diabolo are all quality diabolos and no one diabolo is better than the rest. They all have their own feel and advantages. The most important thing is to have a full 5 inch diabolo. Just because one person uses one of these in no way makes that diabolo special. All of these diabolos are used by many top diabolists in the world. Many top diabolists use more than one of these types of diabolo on a regular basis.

Circuses and Yohos are more stable than the Finesse. The Finesse is more smooth and light than the others. The lighter diabolo can be an advantage some times but can make learning some tricks slightly harder for many people. Perhaps Finesses are a bit more of an advanced diabolo. The Circuses are good for ground bouncing tricks. The stability of the Circuses and Yohos makes them perhaps the easiest to learn with. The availability of Circuses in North America and Europe makes them popular there. The availablity of Yohos in Australia and Japan makes them popular there.

Harlequins are rarely used at an advanced level simply because of their weight. One isn't too bad but when you are doing lots with 2 and 3 they are simply to hard on the arms.
=====================

There now I don't feel like all that hard work went to waste.

Sean

[nezzybaby]

I think everyones mssed one of the most important criterion for diabolo purhase, which hurts the least when you hit yourself in the face!

I've had my  Henry's for nearly 2 years now, and must hav hit myself in the face at least a hundred times (mainly trying to get a loop diabolo go round my head). However i sustained only minor injuries, had a slightly fat lip for a while, but other than that no problems.

My friend Steve got a set of two finesse'sfor christmas and in a week of  him having them he has a huge scar accross his eye, and i have one going right across my nose.

So you must rememer always that although finesse diabolos are light, they're very SHARP. So  until i can control two finesse's better im onlying diaboloing with henry's!

I wish i had a digital camera we look so stupid right now

[martijn]

Harlequins are rarely used at an advanced level simply because of their weight. One isn't too bad but when you are doing lots with 2 and 3 they are simply too hard on the arms.

But you do get some great arm-muscles

[Sean]

I think everyones missed one of the most important criterion for diabolo purhase, which hurts the least when you hit yourself in the face! .... My friend Steve got a set of two finesse'sfor christmas and in a week of  him having them he has a huge scar accross his eye, and i have one going right across my nose.

I wish i had a digital camera we look so stupid right now

Hahaha.  

I know the feeling. I was trying to teach a friend how to do a finger grind with a wide axled glow in the dark finesse in the dark once. I had the diabolo going really quickly and I put it on his finger tips. The diabolo slipped off, touched his finger and shot off right at my face. I had a big line on my forehead for days.

This isn't even mentioning the dozens of cuts on my wrists and arms caused by finesses that look suspicious to most people.

Thank goodness the finesse generation 2's have round edges.

Sean

[seán_]

....This isn't even mentioning the dozens of cuts on my wrists and arms caused by finesses that look suspicious to most people.

Thank goodness the finesse generation 2's have round edges.

Sean

Yup I think I mentioned before how it got back to me that people thought I was self harming

Flare jumbos have a simmilar axle to renegades (but in brass), people used to swap the axles. The cups are relatively hard plastic. I wouldn't recomend them over circus or finesse or other rubber ones but it could be an alternative to renegades (they dont have the same feel spin and speed wise though)

[Pedro]

I need some adivice on this issue. I aways used circus and a like then a lot, I'm really solid on 2D, and I was wondering what should make my progress on 2D hard tricks and 3D easier: finesses diabolos or the henrys tunning kit(teflon axels)??
Thanks in advance

[Sean]

Since you already like your Circuses I'd say go with the teflon hubs - you'll love them. Finesses are great too, but I think heavier more stable diabolos (ie. Circuses) probably make learning 3 diabolos a bit easier.

Sean

[Matt_]

Sean where do you recommend buying those replacement hubs/axles for Henry's diabolos? (and i suppose it will be online stores only...i doubt you and i will ever shop at the same walk-in type stores, heh). i've gotten this link from matt hall but...it's all in german. we ARE talking about the same thing, right? because i have used those axles firsthand and they are excellent.

[seán_]

Sean where do you recommend buying those replacement hubs/axles for Henry's diabolos? (and i suppose it will be online stores only...i doubt you and i will ever shop at the same walk-in type stores, heh). i've gotten this link from matt hall but...it's all in german. we ARE talking about the same thing, right? because i have used those axles firsthand and they are excellent.

I know i'm the wrong Sean but check out the 2nd and third posts here in the equipment sticky. for the $erli site and another site that sells simmilar. (run them through babelfish if you have trouble, and if I remember right we have a few German members who might be able to help)

The other style of replacements are available from Henrys themselves. They are the same shape as the original cones but made from teflon (or whatever) and are called tuning kits.
go to the henrys site and search for tuning kits (or enter this number) J93051

Seán

[Sean]

Matt_, I am having Serious Juggling (which is much closer to you than me) order some for me. I wrote about it in this message, which is part of another thread on teflon axles. From the sounds of it he might order a couple extras, which someone else could buy. If not, you could ask Ben to order some more with his next Henrys shipment - or give them a call now - maybe the Henrys order hasn't gone through yet.

Sean

[jakethecakebhs]

ive read through this thorum an found out that circus is easier to learn 2d with but i am buying 2 new diabolos and i was just wondering when i get advanced at 2d would circus ou finnesse g2 be betteer cause i can only afford 1 type and how easy it is to learn isnt an issue to me i just need to practice more   hope this makes sense                                                                  p.s. sorry if this post is unwanted sean but icouldnt find the answer in anyother threads sorry.