Defining the difference between Suns and Fans

[Marko]

Okay so I had to argue about this thing today while teaching. I'm gonna open this up with just shortly and tell my opinions later on.

How do you define the difference between Suns and Fans?

If you have just one diabolo is it a same trick? When you add a second or third diabolo they are two different things, aren't they? I'm mostly interested hearing what makes sun a sun and fan a fan. 

I've seen many different versions in both but still in some cases it gets quite hard to make the difference. Clearly there are different opinions since I had to argue about this. Feel free to add videos if you feel that it helps. But I'm totally fine with just having text. Looking forward to your replies.

[Arthur]

Interesting topic, Marko!

I think a fan is when the momentum of diabolo 1 is used to swing diabolo 2 in a circle with a phase difference of pi. Oh, and the momentum of D1=D2, who are both describing a circle. This isn't the case with suns, as one swings past the other. Also with a fan the string is around the axle until it goes back in the direction it came from (generalizing the differece with an S fan).

Damn, I suddenly understand why you had this discussion!
First I thought; oh, thats easy!
But it's actually very hard to formulate...

[Saska]

We really put some time in this yesterday with Marko and we would say that fans are continuous suns, no catches between. Suns on the other hand have one catch between every single sun. So are Feed the suns really feed the fans? The diabolos don't change places = no catches.

I was also thinking that the difference could be your hands rhythm. When doing a sun you mainly use your left hand (for righties) and right hand just follows along. When doing fan you use your both hands simultaneously in an async pattern.
Thoughts?

-Saska

[Duncan]

The simplistic answer I was originally going to offer was Martijn's video on c-fans/suns. But since people want to debate, I'll try for a more in-depth argument (and also because I don't want to get back to grading papers just yet).

It seems that the problem is in the assumption of the indexicality of what a sun and a fan are (i.e., that a fan is a fan due to certain properties, and a sun is a sun due to properties that somehow differentiate it from the fan). As Saska has pointed out, one doesn't really do a sun when doing a feed the sun with three. With this observation, we've arrived at a crisis of indexicality (what does it MEAN to do a sun or a fan).

It could be that we're not looking hard enough at the history of where the confusion over what a fan and a sun are. Saska`s point concerns feeds, so let’s look back at how it came to be popular.

Diabolo.ca VotW: 18 december 2005, Priam

Priam showed us the 3d feed in 2005, when the extension of the known trick (I’m assuming) was a two diabolo trick. When you did the trick, you did only do a sun below the thrown diabolo, and then ended with a two diabolo sun (and its only since then that people have since tried more tricky/inventive things like going into fans or unfeeding fans). It may be that people are looking back anachronistically at the development of feeds and fans and suns and forgetting the origins of the tricks. A feed the sun with three does require one to do what we have termed a ‘fan’ in order to get the timing correct.  However, the naming conventions (and the nitpickiness of some diaboloists) hadn’t reached their zenith, so the trick comes to be known by what was familiar – i.e., ‘feed the sun.’

Tricks that were unique to two diabolos were originally given names which fit the description of the time, but progress in two and three diabolos has proven that those definitions are not as applicable as before (tricks for two diabolos doesn’t necessarily describe what happens with three).  Fans and suns have also proven to be much more similar due to skill progression, not necessarily because of the limitations of the terms.

But, perhaps we've simply arrived at a point where more people are realising that defining tricks with names is too limiting.

[Marko]

Lovely Duncan! Thank you for the effort on explaining this.

The first video pretty much explains perfectly what I was trying to say. And this is originally where the argument sparked. Fan is still a fan weather it's clockwise or counter clockwise. The direction doesn't make it a sun. I'm sure this will help me later on to explain the difference better. I even had a video filmed on that day, but I think there's no real reason to put it online.

I'm along the same lines here. As Saska said people seem to be doing lots of fans in feed the suns. I do get the original idea and accept the naming since it has become a convention. Still even if the trick is called "feed the suns", one cannot just do a fan on 2diabolos and rename it a sun. Without colliding with earlier naming systems we have had. I'll still stand up the fact that in suns diabolos change and in fans they keep their places.

Now I'm interested also about 3d. Is there a 3 diabolo fan? Or are they always suns?

[barnesy]

But, perhaps we've simply arrived at a point where more people are realising that defining tricks with names is too limiting.

I'll go with that one!  Reminds me of the many times I've ranted at people about 3d synch/asynch:  there's so much to understand about 3d that I feel the overemphasis that distinction seems to get is unhelpful.

But I'll continue anyway...

For me, it's all about the visual effect.  It's a fan if the movement of two diabolos on the string resembles the blades of a fan.   Feeds don't break it because the fan-ness can persist.   

With 3 on the string I think it's more like a sun.  But I'm not totally sure if that holds up!  If it wasn't for the position switching (or lack thereof), I'd be tempted to think of fans as a specific sun timing.

Dave

[Marko]

I agree that it's limiting to define tricks by names. But there's a reason why I'm trying to protect or make some names more clear.  Sharing tricks is mostly about finding words to pass ideas to other person, and for that I have to rely on my verbal skills and what I can do nonverbally. I teach now more than 10hours diabolo every week and quite often I run on problems where one just has misunderstood the name of trick and what actually should be done in a trick. I'll give you an example:

There has been at least two cases where person has practiced feed the suns with real suns. After learning that (which actually I think is good trick) somebody else online just tells them they are doing it wrong. This makes the person practice feed the suns like they "should" be done. With faster timing (a fan). 

I'm not saying it's all bad, they get good practice and after that the whole trick is more solid. But it tells much about the attitude with people online to judge other persons tricks as wrong and right.  Now if everybody would realize straight away that in fts you are actually doing fans it would save up lot of time for many people. There's no changing the name but it's good to bring issues with names and what you really do up.

Oh and come on, there's no wrong and right with tricks. They are just tricks. It might not always be the exact same thing but does it really matter that much?

[samuli]

Oh well, I feel lazy but I try to give my 2cents, even this propably would need much longer answer.

with 1d, fan and sun is the same move. (at least as I see this) On 2d word sun is used for patterns based on two handedfour beat siteswap pattern 312s2s .
Where sun happens on 22 part and 31 is the set up.

And just to be clear how these sun/fan terms are used at the moment with 2d.
sun = 312s2s, 4 beat pattern
fan = 2s2s, 2 beat pattern

31 is the two handed siteswap notation for basic shuffle.
2rbw, 2 or 2rfw, 2 would be the hover speed up,
continuous speed pulls would be 2rbw/rfw231
22 would be the minicolums with 2 diabolo

rbw= right back wrap
rfw= right front wrap

fan is just continuous 22 movement. diabolos stay on same place on the string but string rotates a circle.

nice patterns from here are doing regular 22 (minicolums) and going in to different versions of fan, (right out, right in, left in, left out) keeping the pattern as 2222s2s as a five beat version and 22s2s as much more difficult 3 beat version. some 31222 versions are fun too, 3122s2s is really good fun as the sun part changes direction so to speak is antifan or antisun. (s after siteswap, explains the sun/fan)

At this point I point out my point here: sun and fan are for me same things. they describe same movement, it is just difference between the siteswap of the pattern. I know I have said this before but I don't really enjoy naming the tricks. As usually the trick names don't explain anything about the movement/trick itself.

2handed notation for 3low would be 51? or (4x,2x) depending how you like to think of it, or do you prefer sync or async.
cascade is 333
with columns you have lot of ways to go. 333 is possible as 4440, 423, they are different but just coulumns don't give enough info.
box is (4, 2x)(2x,4)
Hover is multiplex pattern. [2rbw, 1] 3,
other nice hover patterns with 3 are [2rbw, 2],2 which is minicolums with hover, and [2rbw, 3],1 which is hover with anti shuffle.

for 3d suns/fans with 2handed siteswap notation, here's some variations without feeding.
regular 3d sun/fan would be [2s,2s],2s or 2s,[2s,2s]

[seán_]

a fan is a 3rd base sun

[samuli]

'a fan is a 3rd base sun'

no it is not. if third base is that you start a thing but you don't finish it. In fan you just keep doing it without finishing.

just ignoring my own post.
Do you need to start fan with a sun?
Do you need to end your fans with a sun?

[seán_]

That's a mighty big 'if' Samuli You're kind using a very blunt definition of 3rdB there  but to co-opt your statement, - You start to do a sun then you 'stop doing' the sun and start doing a fan(s) then you 'stop doing ' a fan(s) and 'resume doing' a/the sun to finish (in a standard entry exit)

[samuli]

sun is 3rd base fan.